KLG poachers

[Rusty Spinner]

Not to hijack this thread, but the SBR sedimentation issue is not an easy fix, unfortunately. It is the direct result of too much development too close to the river and nothing else.

Interesting to note for those following the saga on the old NJTrout, the sand that seems to be increasing into the upper SBR is a natural occurrence. We have found it to be the main substrate as close as 1/2 mile from the outflow of Budd Lake, that river's headwaters. It appears that it was deposited there as the Wisconsin glacier receded some 12,000+ years ago. Now with increased velocities during rain events, it is finding its way more quickly into the river system.:crap:

 

[golden beetle]

Ok, let me try my best to reason with you, and wade through the insults.

My "stupid" remark about poachers in the northeastern u.s.is not, in fact, so stupid!

In Africa, the ivory harvested from elephant tusks is extremely precious. I would only be able to guess as to the value of a pair of elephant tusks. My guess, however, is that a poacher of elephant could make far more money poaching than he could in other lines of available work.

The value of a trout is, perhaps, 6 dollars a pound? I am guessing, of course. My basis for this conclusion is the price I pay for fish at the local deli.

Of course, since trout is.food, I suppose, to the poacher, you need also consider any alternatives to trout fillets that are available at the market. I can buy ground beef for 2 bucks a pound. Of course, the trip to the market, back and forth, is a cost, but the time spent at the market buying fresh meats is, presumably, much shorter than the time spent fishing for trout.

Now, if a poacher uses dynamite or toxins, that would change the equation significantly. I would be inclined to punish such poaching behavior severely.

But, forgive me for my naivete, is such dynamiting of rivers for trout occurring in the KLG? For that matter, has anyone witnessed poachers with tools such as TNT or toxins, or are we limiting our disdain to those armed with worms, bud light, and a spinning rod?

 

[Rusty Spinner]

We have had documented cases in NJ of poachers netting out small brook trout streams to sell the fish to NYC restaurants, so many of us here are very wary of poaching whether that is of the guy who kills 7 trout when the limit is 6 or the guys that net out whole streams.

As for your ivory/elephant analogy, you are behind the times. I believe that all the world's nations have agreed to ban the illegal trade of ivory. The end result has been very positive so far with elephant numbers exceeding those of pre-1900 levels in many countries. The elephant is not yet fully recovered in all of its former territory, but it is well on its way back. The curse of watching the Discovery channel, I guess

 

[NJAngler]

are we limiting our disdain to those armed with worms, bud light, and a spinning rod?

good point. as a spin fisherman who dabbles in fly fishing on occasion, the prejudice shown (here and other sites) towards those who don't fly fish can be obvious. the "elitist" and "snob" tags often given to fly fisherman certainly do not apply to all but some do earn it and seemingly proud of it.

as for its impacts, hard to say. 4 guys camping for a 10 days in the woods along a small stream can take plenty of trout legally(200 if they take 5 per day each for ten days) and do some serious damage. how often does this happen? rare but i've heard stories.

 

[biot]

Now, if a poacher uses dynamite or toxins, that would change the equation significantly. I would be inclined to punish such poaching behavior severely.

But, forgive me for my naivete, is such dynamiting of rivers for trout occurring in the KLG? For that matter, has anyone witnessed poachers with tools such as TNT or toxins, or are we limiting our disdain to those armed with worms, bud light, and a spinning rod?

You say TNT and Toxins, well I think that would be breaking a hell of alot of other laws other than Fish and Game laws.
And there is no distain towards Worms, spinning rods overall but when it comes to a special regulation area such as the KLG, yes there is distain towards "BAIT FISHING" in an area that is well posted that it is "Not Allowed" to be used there.
Now the mentality from people who break these laws in a "Special Regs" area is that there are large Trout in these areas and not in the open water areas.
Hell you can even use "Spinning Tackle" in the Gorge as long as you are throwing "Artificials" so don't even go there Mr. Beetle.
If you understood what the point of this thread is Golden Beetle maybe you would think before typing some of these rediculous statements that you keep bringing up here.

The bottom line is that there is plenty of water that can be fished by any means. And there is no reason to tolerate these jerk-offs when there is a very small percentage of protected areas in this State.
So anyone fishing with "BAIT" in areas such as the KLG and keeping "MORE" than their limit are considered "POACHERS", Case Closed.:finger:

 

[golden beetle]

NJangler, sometimes I wonder whether this is about disdain for spin fishermen - since there are not truly poachers in NJ in the true sense of the word, is the word "poacher" just how some of these folks imagine spin guys to be.

Rusty, please re-read my post. I use the word "guess" about elephants because, frankly, I don't know a thing about the current state of the international ivory trade, and mean to honestly admit that.

Instead, my point is that the traditional, individual poacher targets animals that are valuable for their horns and tusks, and not for their meat.

Sure, there are poaching vessels that harvest tons of fish illegally at sea, but to accrue a profit poaching fish for food, you gotta get 1000s of fish. Food is cheap, ivory is expensive - it is worthwhile, from a poacher's view to kill 1 animal for its ivory, but senseless to spend hours harvesting a few ounces of brook trout fillets.

This should not be controversial, and my logic is sound (point out any flaws, I will listen). Of course, if people are netting brookies and selling them to restaurants, that is a serious crime. But such poaching is uncommon, and please don't fool yourself: if I saw a guy netting brookies, I'd report em too.

 

[Marky]

The Ivory trade is bigger than ever with the way the economy has tanked. Plus there is a large loophole in the CITES regs.

 

[jlajoie]

NJangler, sometimes I wonder whether this is about disdain for spin fishermen - since there are not truly poachers in NJ in the true sense of the word, is the word "poacher" just how some of these folks imagine spin guys to be.

Yes, there are poachers in NJ, and NY, and CT.
Poaching is defined as the illegal hunting, fishing, or eating of wild plants or animals contrary to local and international conservation and wildlife management laws.

Rusty, please re-read my post. I use the word "guess" about elephants because, frankly, I don't know a thing about the current state of the international ivory trade, and mean to honestly admit that.

Try Googleing "Ivory Trade"

Instead, my point is that the traditional, individual poacher targets animals that are valuable for their horns and tusks, and not for their meat.

Wrong. People poach deer, elk, mountain goats, and animals used as "bush meat" all the time. In fact, just last year there was a mass murder of the Virunga Gorilla family, where heavily armed poachers waited for the 12 member family and killed 7 of them.
Who Murdered the Virunga Gorillas? - National Geographic Magazine

Sure, there are poaching vessels that harvest tons of fish illegally at sea, but to accrue a profit poaching fish for food, you gotta get 1000s of fish. Food is cheap, ivory is expensive - it is worthwhile, from a poacher's view to kill 1 animal for its ivory, but senseless to spend hours harvesting a few ounces of brook trout fillets.

Again, wrong. Illegal, unreported, and unregulated (IUU) fishing is an enormous problem. It occurs in virtually all fisheries, and is thought to account for up to 30% of total catches in some important fisheries. IUU fishing has enormous consequences. South Africa, for example, has reportedly lost US$290 million since the mid-1990s to toothfish poachers alone, and legitimate toothfish fishing has been virtually wiped out. One of the country’s toothfish stocks collapsed after just three years of pirate fishing.

The poachers are not just decimating valuable fish populations: they are also killing tens of thousands of marine animals as bycatch and destroying delicate habitats through their unregulated use of damaging, and sometimes illegal, fishing practices.

This should not be controversial, and my logic is sound (point out any flaws, I will listen). Of course, if people are netting brookies and selling them to restaurants, that is a serious crime. But such poaching is uncommon, and please don't fool yourself: if I saw a guy netting brookies, I'd report em too.

Right. I am sure you would.....[sarcastic smiley here]


Oh, good morning, everybody!

 

[NJAngler]

me thinks there is a lot of over-reaction here to a singular event. KLG has much bigger issues than a a few poachers - starting with its popularity. its popularity IS its biggest issue. just try getting the place to yourself(or even a few hundred feet) sometime other than midnight on january 1st. loved to death is a phrase that come to mind. the state had a chance to reduce/correct this by closing off the road permanently and keeping parking to a minimum but alas, the situation will only get worst. trust me poachers are the least of your problems there.

 

[quality time]

NJangler, sometimes I wonder whether this is about disdain for spin fishermen - since there are not truly poachers in NJ in the true sense of the word, is the word "poacher" just how some of these folks imagine spin guys to be.

Not at all! I've been extremely critical of Mark in some of his posts, but it has NOTHING TO DO with the fact that he primarily uses a spinning rod. Mark is clearly not a poacher. In fact, he is a proponent of C&R. I feel the same way about anyone I come across fishing with spinning tackle.....it certainly doesn't make them poachers!

Mark and I disagree on the use of treble hooks (he uses them widely, and I have argued that the trout morbidity rate is too high with them) and the use of the internet to communicate results (he likes to post, and I prefer to never give reports.....just look at the number of "guests" this site has every day lurking for information). That's just healthy debate, and has no connection whatsoever to this poaching topic.

I believe you will find that many of the site members here still do some spin fishing regularly. I certainly do, particularly when fishing lakes and in the salt. Calling us poachers is rediculous.

What this thread hasn't hit upon yet is the different degrees of the violations which occur. There is a big difference between a licensed individual going a fish or two over the limit one time to fill his freezer during the spring stocking season.....an individual that doesn't bother purchasing a license and who deliberately takes as many fish as possible with conventional tackle whenever they can.....and an individual that uses chemicals and nets to clear out entire segments of streams. All of these scenarios play out in NJ, and surrounding states. I believe the laws recognize these various degrees, and hopefully they are enforced with appropriate scalability. But, in all three cases, without exception, THESE INDIVIDUALS ARE POACHERS, and they should be turned in if anyone sees any of these types of activities.

Q.T.

 

[Hllywd76]

What this thread hasn't hit upon yet is the different degrees of the violations which occur. There is a big difference between a licensed individual going a fish or two over the limit one time to fill his freezer during the spring stocking season.....an individual that doesn't bother purchasing a license and who deliberately takes as many fish as possible with conventional tackle whenever they can.....

and an individual that uses chemicals and nets to clear out entire segments of streams. Not the case here but for sure an issue all the same. All of these scenarios play out in NJ, and surrounding states. I believe the laws recognize these various degrees, and hopefully they are enforced with appropriate scalability. But, in all three cases, without exception, THESE INDIVIDUALS ARE POACHERS, and they should be turned in if anyone sees any of these types of activities.
I agree 100%

Q.T.

There is no diferrence between the two examples you give. They are both poachers. Only thing is the guy with the license gets a ticket for every fish that is illegal, Over limit or short. The unlicensed guy gets a ticket for every fish and having no license. The chemical issue isn't relevant in the current KLG debate.
They were Scumbag fishermen. :finger: (Not you QT the scumbags.)

Hllywd

 

[Mark S.]

I agree NJAngler - we think alike ;-)

As for the klg incident, I just find it hard to believe they did what they did on purpose since there are signs everywhere explaining the rules. either its boldly arrogant or amazingly ignorant. most wouldn't for fear of being caught and confronted by a 6'5" fly angler who's ready to explain the rules to him while they both wait for the ranger or WCO. lol.

many of our WTS are not posted as such and I would say many a angler has fished them using bait or taking more than the limit. i've seen the streamside evidence(bait container or hooks hanging from branches) of such activity. whether its some 45 year old poacher or some young kid who doesn't know any better, who knows, but it does happen albeit rarely. certainly more signs would help.

Mark

 

[golden beetle]

Mark, your post is the most helpful. This really is an indictment of thje arrogance of many fly fishermen, who would like to see arrested and imprisoned a guy who takes a fish ir twin as if the crimne were comparable to murder or manslaughter.

These guys are not like the mothers against drunk drivers, they are far more extreme. They fantasize of beating the crap out of imaginary poachers, which, imo, is pretty sick in itself.

 

[golden beetle]

Wow, I must say that the debate here has been insightful, exceptional, and enjoyable. To all that argued against me, I respect you as any champion respects his vanquished opponents.

I gave this thread to a debate expert who concluded that I won the debate in a landslide. Although he said that my opponents were clearly wrong, he stopped short of calling them "stupid," notwithstanding that they used the word to describe their conqueror, Golden Beetle.

From now on, please capitalize Golden Beetle, to show your respect.

Peace out, and hugs to those who tried to argue against me, an intellectual genius.

 

[quality time]

Wow, I must say that the debate here has been insightful, exceptional, and enjoyable. To all that argued against me, I respect you as any champion respects his vanquished opponents.

I gave this thread to a debate expert who concluded that I won the debate in a landslide. Although he said that my opponents were clearly wrong, he stopped short of calling them "stupid," notwithstanding that they used the word to describe their conqueror, Golden Beetle.

From now on, please capitalize Golden Beetle, to show your respect.

Peace out, and hugs to those who tried to argue against me, an intellectual genius.

Debate expert? Must be your ex-wife's attorney.

OK, it's time to close this thread and :ban: the :looser::dickhead: golden shower!

 

[biot]

Wow, I must say that the debate here has been insightful, exceptional, and enjoyable. To all that argued against me, I respect you as any champion respects his vanquished opponents.

I gave this thread to a debate expert who concluded that I won the debate in a landslide. Although he said that my opponents were clearly wrong, he stopped short of calling them "stupid," notwithstanding that they used the word to describe their conqueror, Golden Beetle.

From now on, please capitalize Golden Beetle, to show your respect.

Peace out, and hugs to those who tried to argue against me, an intellectual genius.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: ..........................Yea Right "DUNG BEETLE", the Icecube in hell has a better chance of staying frozen than you getting any "RESPECT":rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[Ryan R]

Aren't you clever Mark S., er NJ Angler, aka "the treble hook mangler".

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Aren't you clever Mark S., er NJ Angler, aka "the treble hook mangler".

Busted! I saw that too and was going to let it slide. Does anyone on this site only have one name other than me???

 

[Drossi]

Wow, I must say that the debate here has been insightful, exceptional, and enjoyable. To all that argued against me, I respect you as any champion respects his vanquished opponents.

I gave this thread to a debate expert who concluded that I won the debate in a landslide. Although he said that my opponents were clearly wrong, he stopped short of calling them "stupid," notwithstanding that they used the word to describe their conqueror, Golden Beetle.

From now on, please capitalize Golden Beetle, to show your respect.

Peace out, and hugs to those who tried to argue against me, an intellectual genius.

GOLDEN SHOWER as the winner why don't you go get yourself the Golden Tornado. :down:

 

[kindanewbie77]

Glad to see everyone using my nickname for that asshole! Oh GOLDEN SHOWEr, where is your witty reply.....I know you have one in there somewhere....kind of like your usual sign off...peace out mofos, real original!

 

[Corndog]

Busted! I saw that too and was going to let it slide. Does anyone on this site only have one name other than me???

Yea what's with that! Don't they have the balls to say something and stand behind it.

IMO NEFF has changed over the past year for the better. Seeing a lot less of the losers with their nasty comments that are just trying to screw with others. Guys and gals are hooking up and fishing together, sharing streams and experience with each other. I for one like what I'm seeing here. And for the most part, goldenshower excluded, the posts have been more cordial.


I'm corndog and I approve my message. I don't need a secret account to back me up.

Cdog

 

[Hllywd76]

Yea what's with that! Don't they have the balls to say something and stand behind it.

IMO NEFF has changed over the past year for the better. Seeing a lot less of the losers with their nasty comments that are just trying to screw with others. Guys and gals are hooking up and fishing together, sharing streams and experience with each other. I for one like what I'm seeing here. And for the most part, goldenshower excluded, the posts have been more cordial.


I'm corndog and I approve my message. I don't need a secret account to back me up.

Cdog

Figured since the seal was broken you could have another groan.... Will the others go away when he is removed?????????

Hllywd

 

[Rusty Spinner]

IMO NEFF has changed over the past year for the better. Seeing a lot less of the losers with their nasty comments that are just trying to screw with others. Guys and gals are hooking up and fishing together, sharing streams and experience with each other. I for one like what I'm seeing here. And for the most part, goldenshower excluded, the posts have been more cordial.

Cdog

C'mon now, everyone sing it with me. You know the lyrics...

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, the Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya


:band:


At least we still get enough jerks to make it interesting from time to time

 

[eddavidson9]

IMO NEFF has changed over the past year for the better. Seeing a lot of the nasty screw with others.... Guys and gals are hooking up.... I for one like what I'm seeing here...goldenshower....

Cdog

HELL YESSS! guys and gals hookin up, golden showers for everyone...now this is what fly fishing is all about! glad you agree Porndog.

 

[kindanewbie77]

Porndog......I don't care who you are that right there is funny!!!!!

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Porndog......I don't care who you are that right there is funny!!!!!

:rofl::rofl:

I love it!

 

[Corndog]

DAMN! You guys are hard! :finger:
Woody, I'll give you 1 day to remove that groan...then I take the gloves off!:boxing:

Rusty Hook, Getting with you to sing would just be creepy. Next you'd be putting your arm around me and calling me pal.

Edward, You got a dark side. You'd make a good centerpinner.

Cdog

 

[Corndog]

Porndog......I don't care who you are that right there is funny!!!!!

Yea laugh it up newbie! :give-the-finger:

Cdog

 

[eddavidson9]

You guys are hard!
Woody....

give it a rest, you made your point

 

[springman]

My question is what the best course of action.

You best course of action is to stay out of it. Everyone and there brother has to have their nose in someone else's business today. Did your friend talk with them?? Maybe they are ill informed, were they all trout? Did you see this or is this hearsay from a friend of a friend. If they were telling all these folks it doesn't sound like they understood the laws.

In the end we all eat from the same table, but as a whole we are "are worst enemy"

yes the guys held up the stringer and showed the powerbait. he has no reason to make up some story about the gorge like that. even if it isn't true the topic will come up in the future. i've seen bait cans about in conservation areas before.