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Dont be fooled
- Thread starter Catskill Mountain Man
- Start date
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
Maybe you should have titled this one "don't be a fool"
Mr. Mayer said his problems started three years ago when they started drilling in Spencer, NY.
Spencer is 10 or so miles from his place. Three years ago, they were not drilling in the Marcellus shale. In fact the only wells drilled in Spencer were in the Black River formation. The gas wells he may be speaking of were drilled to a depth of about 10,000 feet.
The makers of this video("titlers") of course, labeled the video "Marcellus" to strike fear in the hearts of people and further their agenda. You, of course, fell for it. I would think that by NOW, the people on this site would expect this type of shenanigans and question EVERYTHING put out by these groups.
Try to keep it factual.
BTW, natural gas is odorless. At the end of the video Mr. Mayer says that people can't take a shower and come out smelling good... This leads me to believe that there is some other "more organic" reason for his having methane in his water system...
Mr. Mayer said his problems started three years ago when they started drilling in Spencer, NY.
Spencer is 10 or so miles from his place. Three years ago, they were not drilling in the Marcellus shale. In fact the only wells drilled in Spencer were in the Black River formation. The gas wells he may be speaking of were drilled to a depth of about 10,000 feet.
The makers of this video("titlers") of course, labeled the video "Marcellus" to strike fear in the hearts of people and further their agenda. You, of course, fell for it. I would think that by NOW, the people on this site would expect this type of shenanigans and question EVERYTHING put out by these groups.
Try to keep it factual.
BTW, natural gas is odorless. At the end of the video Mr. Mayer says that people can't take a shower and come out smelling good... This leads me to believe that there is some other "more organic" reason for his having methane in his water system...
Dr. Gonzo
Stuck in my cabana, livin on bananas and blow.
Based on the DEC Spill Report in the video it looks like he called the DEC on 1/26/09 and stated that the problem had started about a year prior. Also, the material class is petroleum not methane - at least according to the DEC. I'd take anything from a place called toxicstargeting with a grain of salt but the DEC report seems pretty factual to me.
dcabarle
Administrator
It's fRactual. I thought you were smarter than that.
Kilgour Farms
I took the one less traveled by
There was an article in the Binghamton press dated Sept 13, 2008 in which a couple from West Windsor demonstrated(video) that the new water well they drilled conatined methane and they were able to light their faucets, there were no gas wells for miles 25+ miles.
Papers use this to sensationalise there stories. These groups should do some more research they would find that methane in water wells is common, infact as mentioned on this forum, people in Dimock, first person, have said that methane has been in the water supply there for far longer the drilling that is taking place.
Just go along the Delaware and ask the residents if the have bad water(sulfur, methane), I think you would be suprised at the number of people who have it and its not drilling related.
Heres a rebuttle on the toxics targeting article from energyindepth.com
Walter Hang’s Statistics
December 22nd, 2009 Posted in Coalition Bulletins, Legal, Questions and answers, enviormental issues | No Comments »
Friday, December 18, 2009
Contact: Jeff Eshelman • 202-857-4774 • jeff@energyindepth.org
Chris Tucker • 202-346-8825 • chris@energyindepth.org
* * *
Ithaca activist scores lots of coverage over claim of “270 oil and gas spills in New York” – but what do the data ACTUALLY say?
Walter Hang knows his way around a government database. And it’s a good thing he does. As president of the Ithaca, N.Y.-based Toxics Targeting, Inc., Mr. Hang’s entire business depends on being able to access and track all sorts of state, local and federal environmental data, and then distill that information into accurate, up-to-date reports for his customers. So when Mr. Hang released a report last month listing “270 oil and gas spills” in New York over the past 30 years, data he derived from government sources, the public took notice. And the media did too.
A lot of notice. A quick Internet search for “Walter Hang” and “270” returns more than 1,000 individual media and blog mentions, including prominent pieces in several area newspapers, plentyof extended radio spots, and on local television from far Upstate to the Southern Tier.
And to his credit, Mr. Hang gives a great interview. His argument, always impassioned, goes something like this: “DEC’s own data,” found right here in my report, prove that oil and gas exploration is unsafe; DEC has severe “regulatory shortcomings” and cannot be trusted to oversee shale gas exploration; and finally, the draft DEC regulatory document governing the Marcellus is “inadequate.” It cannot be fixed. It cannot be amended. It can only be destroyed. My report – have I mentioned that? – well, it proves it.
In reality, it’s not much of a “report” at all. Found here on Mr. Hang’s website, it appears simply to be a compilation of incident sheets downloaded directly from DEC’s spill database (available for public search here) and marked up furiously with a highlighter. But what do the numbers actually say? Well, Energy In Depth took a look at the data — for real this time. And what we found might just knock you off your chair.
First, let’s have Mr. Hang set the baseline for us:
“I just posted data at [on my website] for 270 oil and gas spills in New York State that have caused fires, explosions, home evacuations, polluted drinking water wells as well as long-term impacts on forests, streams, wetlands, ponds and other waterways.”
270 oil and natural gas spills – a claim, remember, that Mr. Hang makes in support of his larger argument that DEC cannot do, and indeed has not done, an “adequate” job of regulating the exploration and production of oil and natural gas in the state of New York.
Now let’s compare that assertion with the actual facts:
· Total number of spills over past 30 years, across entire state, related to oil and natural gas exploration & production: 161 (not 270)
· Total number of spills documented in DEC’s database over the past 30 years: 354,615
· Percentage of total spills tied to oil or natural gas exploration: 0.045% (45 thousandths of one percent)
· Number of incidental spills reported over same period at gas stations (and in no way related to oil or gas exploration): 30,122
Catch all that? The process of exploring for, and eventually producing, oil and natural gas in New York over the past three decades is responsible for one-forty-thousandth of one percent (!) of the total spillage recorded over that time. Still too high? Let’s take a look at the numbers just for natural gas:
· Number of DEC-recorded spills tied to the exploration or production of natural gas: 45
· Out of a total, 30-year spill total of: 354,615
· For a total spill percentage of: 0.0123%
It’s important to keep in mind here that New York is not Rhode Island. New Yorkers have been producing natural gas in their state longer than anyone; indeed, the world’s first commercial gas well was developed in Fredonia nearly 190 years ago. Today, the state supports more than 14,000 individual natural gas wells. And over the past 30 years, those wells have delivered more than 800 billion cubic feet of natural gasto consumers in New York and elsewhere.
We’ll say it again: More than 800 billion cubic feet of natural gas in 30 years. And in that time – 45 spills.
From where do the remaining 354,000 spills originate? Let’s run through the list:
· 100,929 (28.5%) — commercial/industrial sites
· 69,719 (19.7%) — residential (private dwelling) sites.
· 63,121 (17.8%) — transportation (automobile, railroads, trucks)
· 35,072 (9.9%) — institutional sites
· 30,122 (8.5%) – simple spills at gas stations.
No one should doubt Mr. Hang’s sincerity and passion, and certainly no one can discount his ability to organize a crowd. Indeed, according to reports, Mr. Hang has secured more than 6,000 signatures from folks who apparently believe, like he does, that natural gas exploration is responsible for hundreds of catastrophic spills over the past 30 years, and is bound to account for many, many more in the future. His report “proves” it.
But as our analysis indicates, one that is easily corroborated by simply taking the time to look through the sheets, Mr. Hang’s well-publicized efforts to target and eliminate sources of oil and gas spillage in New York would be more appropriately directed at several other places: starting with his local gas station, and extending all the way through to his office space. Now that’s a report we’ll be anxious to read.
Papers use this to sensationalise there stories. These groups should do some more research they would find that methane in water wells is common, infact as mentioned on this forum, people in Dimock, first person, have said that methane has been in the water supply there for far longer the drilling that is taking place.
Just go along the Delaware and ask the residents if the have bad water(sulfur, methane), I think you would be suprised at the number of people who have it and its not drilling related.
Heres a rebuttle on the toxics targeting article from energyindepth.com
Walter Hang’s Statistics
December 22nd, 2009 Posted in Coalition Bulletins, Legal, Questions and answers, enviormental issues | No Comments »
Friday, December 18, 2009
Contact: Jeff Eshelman • 202-857-4774 • jeff@energyindepth.org
Chris Tucker • 202-346-8825 • chris@energyindepth.org
* * *
Ithaca activist scores lots of coverage over claim of “270 oil and gas spills in New York” – but what do the data ACTUALLY say?
Walter Hang knows his way around a government database. And it’s a good thing he does. As president of the Ithaca, N.Y.-based Toxics Targeting, Inc., Mr. Hang’s entire business depends on being able to access and track all sorts of state, local and federal environmental data, and then distill that information into accurate, up-to-date reports for his customers. So when Mr. Hang released a report last month listing “270 oil and gas spills” in New York over the past 30 years, data he derived from government sources, the public took notice. And the media did too.
A lot of notice. A quick Internet search for “Walter Hang” and “270” returns more than 1,000 individual media and blog mentions, including prominent pieces in several area newspapers, plentyof extended radio spots, and on local television from far Upstate to the Southern Tier.
And to his credit, Mr. Hang gives a great interview. His argument, always impassioned, goes something like this: “DEC’s own data,” found right here in my report, prove that oil and gas exploration is unsafe; DEC has severe “regulatory shortcomings” and cannot be trusted to oversee shale gas exploration; and finally, the draft DEC regulatory document governing the Marcellus is “inadequate.” It cannot be fixed. It cannot be amended. It can only be destroyed. My report – have I mentioned that? – well, it proves it.
In reality, it’s not much of a “report” at all. Found here on Mr. Hang’s website, it appears simply to be a compilation of incident sheets downloaded directly from DEC’s spill database (available for public search here) and marked up furiously with a highlighter. But what do the numbers actually say? Well, Energy In Depth took a look at the data — for real this time. And what we found might just knock you off your chair.
First, let’s have Mr. Hang set the baseline for us:
“I just posted data at [on my website] for 270 oil and gas spills in New York State that have caused fires, explosions, home evacuations, polluted drinking water wells as well as long-term impacts on forests, streams, wetlands, ponds and other waterways.”
270 oil and natural gas spills – a claim, remember, that Mr. Hang makes in support of his larger argument that DEC cannot do, and indeed has not done, an “adequate” job of regulating the exploration and production of oil and natural gas in the state of New York.
Now let’s compare that assertion with the actual facts:
· Total number of spills over past 30 years, across entire state, related to oil and natural gas exploration & production: 161 (not 270)
· Total number of spills documented in DEC’s database over the past 30 years: 354,615
· Percentage of total spills tied to oil or natural gas exploration: 0.045% (45 thousandths of one percent)
· Number of incidental spills reported over same period at gas stations (and in no way related to oil or gas exploration): 30,122
Catch all that? The process of exploring for, and eventually producing, oil and natural gas in New York over the past three decades is responsible for one-forty-thousandth of one percent (!) of the total spillage recorded over that time. Still too high? Let’s take a look at the numbers just for natural gas:
· Number of DEC-recorded spills tied to the exploration or production of natural gas: 45
· Out of a total, 30-year spill total of: 354,615
· For a total spill percentage of: 0.0123%
It’s important to keep in mind here that New York is not Rhode Island. New Yorkers have been producing natural gas in their state longer than anyone; indeed, the world’s first commercial gas well was developed in Fredonia nearly 190 years ago. Today, the state supports more than 14,000 individual natural gas wells. And over the past 30 years, those wells have delivered more than 800 billion cubic feet of natural gasto consumers in New York and elsewhere.
We’ll say it again: More than 800 billion cubic feet of natural gas in 30 years. And in that time – 45 spills.
From where do the remaining 354,000 spills originate? Let’s run through the list:
· 100,929 (28.5%) — commercial/industrial sites
· 69,719 (19.7%) — residential (private dwelling) sites.
· 63,121 (17.8%) — transportation (automobile, railroads, trucks)
· 35,072 (9.9%) — institutional sites
· 30,122 (8.5%) – simple spills at gas stations.
No one should doubt Mr. Hang’s sincerity and passion, and certainly no one can discount his ability to organize a crowd. Indeed, according to reports, Mr. Hang has secured more than 6,000 signatures from folks who apparently believe, like he does, that natural gas exploration is responsible for hundreds of catastrophic spills over the past 30 years, and is bound to account for many, many more in the future. His report “proves” it.
But as our analysis indicates, one that is easily corroborated by simply taking the time to look through the sheets, Mr. Hang’s well-publicized efforts to target and eliminate sources of oil and gas spillage in New York would be more appropriately directed at several other places: starting with his local gas station, and extending all the way through to his office space. Now that’s a report we’ll be anxious to read.
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
Time for the DEC to ban automobiles?
eddavidson9
how's that for a slice of fried gold
no...just gas stations...duh
mbwmn
“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”
Considering the exemption of drilling from the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts it would be MUCH harder to put up a gas station than a well site (on a Federal level).
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
Tioga County man blames nearby gas drilling for polluting his well | News from The Post-Standard -
AHHHH...
Yeah, read all the way to the end...
This had NOTHING to do with drilling in the Marcellus or even drilling in the Trenton-Black River formation... it has EVERYTHING to do with MONEY though...
BTW, what kind of accent is that anyway?
Hey, CMM, you gonna give me another "No thank you" for posting facts?
Kilgour Farms
I took the one less traveled by
Hydraulic fracking was never exempted from the Safe Drinkng Water Act because it was never regulated by it. "Congress knows all this, and if it ever intended the Safe Drinking Water Act to extend beyond its original scope and cover the fracturing of energy wells, it certainly had plenty of chances to make that view known. Passed in 1974, SDWA has been amended a whopping eight separate times over the past 35 years (’74, ’77, ’79, ‘80, ‘86, ‘88, ’96, ‘05), but at no time during that extended run was the concept of regulating fracturing under the Act a significant component of the debate. And that’s true even though at the time of the bill’s passage in ‘74, fracturing had already been in commercial use for 25 years."
Catskill Mountain Man
Explore, and implore to explore
yes I will.
And, who's side are you on? You better not call yourself a fly fisherman if you're siding with the gas companies on this issue.
Cause it sure as hell gets me angry.
And since they're probably not going to be allowed to drill in the watershed maybe they'll drill more heavily in the Beamoc system instead. Who knows we might even be able to light the BK on fire, like the Cuyahoga in Ohio back in the 50's or 60's or some ancient era. Wouldn't that make for a pretty sight? I know im being far fetched. But it's to prove a point.
Side with trout, not money.
And, who's side are you on? You better not call yourself a fly fisherman if you're siding with the gas companies on this issue.
Cause it sure as hell gets me angry.
And since they're probably not going to be allowed to drill in the watershed maybe they'll drill more heavily in the Beamoc system instead. Who knows we might even be able to light the BK on fire, like the Cuyahoga in Ohio back in the 50's or 60's or some ancient era. Wouldn't that make for a pretty sight? I know im being far fetched. But it's to prove a point.
Side with trout, not money.
Last edited:
phong
Navigating un-navigable waterways.
If you are going to quote something please provide the source...because this is in no way slanted...
News Energy in Depth
Energy and environmental legislation are two things that have been historically mutually exclusive.
One of your resident ESQ's...
phong
Navigating un-navigable waterways.
US CODE: Title 42,300h. Regulations for State programs
(2) Regulations of the Administrator under this section for State underground injection control programs may not prescribe requirements which interfere with or impede—
(A) the underground injection of brine or other fluids which are brought to the surface in connection with oil or natural gas production or natural gas storage operations, or
(B) any underground injection for the secondary or tertiary recovery of oil or natural gas,
unless such requirements are essential to assure that underground sources of drinking water will not be endangered by such injection.
I have no first hand experience with this legislation nor did I study it in law school but without looking at case law it would appear that it does apply...
You need to stop drinking the Kool Aid.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
I believe the point is that there were plenty of opportunities up until as recent as 2005 to regulate hydraulic fracturing within the scope of the safe drinking water act. For instance they could have added that hydraulic fracturing constitutes a serious impairment to safe drinking water and thus would be regulated under the following terms X,Y, and Z. As to the question of why it wasnt specifically regulated well thats a different argument entirely. So I dont see any kool aid drinking going on.
Now are you saying the source you are quoting New Energy in Depth as an objective source? New Energy sites work done by Propublica. Propublica was initially funded by Herb and Marion Sandlers Herb Sandler is a big donor to many left wing causes. Now if you are going to quote a source thats fine. I dont care if its left wing or right wing..just dont call it objective
Kilgour Farms
I took the one less traveled by
I believe that the classifications of fracking is not considered an injection disposal well by the EPA.
Catskill Mountain Man
Explore, and implore to explore
"Outside, the stream where Mayer once caught trout, minnows and crayfish bubbles and spurts, Mayer said. The stream is belching gas. The fish are mostly dead, he said."
quoted from the link u posted fanatic
Its a fly fishing forum, not a drilling forum. If trout are found where people are drilling they die. Idc about marcellus shale being different in anyway. There are always accidents, people not inspecting properly, and not setting up the platform correctly. It will happen. No matter how much they say "it's under control and regulated", you're just listening to gas companies money talking. either through public relations people, or through the people whose property they're drilling on.
quoted from the link u posted fanatic
Its a fly fishing forum, not a drilling forum. If trout are found where people are drilling they die. Idc about marcellus shale being different in anyway. There are always accidents, people not inspecting properly, and not setting up the platform correctly. It will happen. No matter how much they say "it's under control and regulated", you're just listening to gas companies money talking. either through public relations people, or through the people whose property they're drilling on.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
So if there are trout there we shouldn't drill under any circumstances. Is that your position?
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
How about the source you quoted? Do you feel they are on objective source?
Catskill Mountain Man
Explore, and implore to explore
yes that is my position.
especially if drilling is located near a stronghold for native brook trout. we're reversing the Eastern brook trout venture's progress and we dont even care. as long as there is money. money money money.
all that hard work done on one system... then we go on to degrade a whole region's water. What will we leave our kids? "Oh here you go kids, we had an amazing fishery here, but we turned it into swiss cheese and wastewater run off."
we shouldnt drill and u guys know it. it WILL affect trout populations
especially if drilling is located near a stronghold for native brook trout. we're reversing the Eastern brook trout venture's progress and we dont even care. as long as there is money. money money money.
all that hard work done on one system... then we go on to degrade a whole region's water. What will we leave our kids? "Oh here you go kids, we had an amazing fishery here, but we turned it into swiss cheese and wastewater run off."
we shouldnt drill and u guys know it. it WILL affect trout populations
I have a friend that when he retired he was perhaps the most unprepared for what ever he was going to do afterwards.
Honest, hard working, trust worthy, good family man, typical all around good guy.
A friend.
He struggled badly for a few years, things were probably worse than he would ever let on.
One day (and this is the truth) they started drilling on his land.
He is now paid $1,000.00 a day, every day for their right to drill.
$365,000.00 a year before taxes.
Needless to say he and his family have a much better life because of it.
I don't know enough about drilling and what impact it would have to say which side of the issue is correct and what isn't.
It is nice for all of us to sit at home and say it would be wrong for someone to sign a release.
What I do know ... that it would so wrong of any of us to tell another not to do it.
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
Although some might say otherwise, I am on the side of the facts.
I'm showing you how this is NOT related to gas drilling. I'm showing you how THIS GUY is lookin' to make a buck. AND STILL you point to methane in his well as "evidence" against gas drilling... Unfortunately, the antis have done their job well...
Yes, far fetched, but no it does not "prove" any point.
Let your arguments against drilling in any watershed be based on FACTS. Convince everyone NOT to allow drilling on the MERITS of the evidence you can provide.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
So how do we get the clean sustainable energy for our future and our kids and grandkids future. Natural Gas has the ability to be a major replacement for our dependence on oil. If global warming is as urgent an issue as many of the same people who are against natural gas exploration believe than what is the answer. You see at some point we might have to do something other than say Not in my backyard, not in my neighborhood, not by this trout stream or not in my state..or maybe we could devote some brain power to actually solving the issue which is what chemicals are being used and how can we make it safer to use. That would be a novel approach!!!
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
So the guy looking to get a little more money from the gas company says all the fishies are dead, and you just take his word for it? He says that he used to catch trout. WHEN? back in the 60s when his father first bought the place? I know of many streams that supported fish and now don't and it's got nothing to do with gas drilling.
There is NO DRILLING within 5 MILES of this guy. The wells that were 5-7 miles away had NO GAS and were abandoned/plugged. The wells that are in his geographic area were NEVER FRACKED.
So what would have killed the fish? the Methane bubbles he says are there?
have you ever seen bubbles coming out of the mud in a pond? METHANE. The fish and other creatures seem to be just fine.
And AGAIN, from the article:
Mayer said the DEC never came to his house to investigate. Roy said the agency decided no investigation was needed because of the distance between Mayer’s house and the drilling, the timing of the complaint and the fact that no other residents closer to the drilling reported well contamination.
Roy said the DEC received a complaint about gas in a water well in Newark Valley, about 8 miles east of Candor, in July 1999. There was no natural-gas drilling taking place then in Tioga County or neighboring Broome County, he said. “This could indicate that the methane occurrence in Mr. Mayer’s well is not unique to his property or area,” Roy said. “Natural gas in water wells commonly occurs throughout the state.”
Roy said the DEC has received no other reports of gas contamination in the area of Mayer’s home, although he noted that the DEC would be aware of problems only if residents report them.
Officials with the Tioga County Health Department said they have received no complaints about well contamination.
Are you KIDDING?
One of the HOTTEST places where gas drilling has taken hold (for some time now) is Wyoming. You better tell the trout that they should be dead.
Gas drilling has been going on in NYS since the 1800s. How's the fishing been lately?
Again, make your argument against drilling with facts. Convince EVERYONE that we should NOT DRILL with the truth, not lies or how you "feel".
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
Gosh, for a minute there I thought you were making the argument against burning COAL for electricity. I mean the coal companies flatten whole entire mountains to get the stuff, and kill off streams, well here: Coal River Mountain Watch :: Campaigns
and then, coal's burned and helps create acid rain that has nearly wiped out the Brook Trout from many places in the Adirondacks!
If we burn gas instead of coal...
Catskill Mountain Man
Explore, and implore to explore
idk... im not convinced. he was "just trying to make a buck"? if so thats disgraceful.
even if that is the fact, maybe the DEC is so lapse right now with the budget that they dont want to waste the time, energy, or have the brain power to connect the drilling to the stream damage... I'm just looking out 4 the trout, as always
even if that is the fact, maybe the DEC is so lapse right now with the budget that they dont want to waste the time, energy, or have the brain power to connect the drilling to the stream damage... I'm just looking out 4 the trout, as always
coolkyle
De nalgas!
Seems to me like he was siding with get your shit straight.
Catskill Mountain Man
Explore, and implore to explore
oh yo coolkyle, whats good man how u been?
i hear brooklyn is beautiful this time of year...NOT
maybe we should put a drilling platform on your block see how u like it
i hear brooklyn is beautiful this time of year...NOT
maybe we should put a drilling platform on your block see how u like it
jlajoie
Can I commute to Missoula from here?
I like it Kyle. Numbnutsery....well said.
And, The County of Kings is beautiful this time of year, CMM. Not that the Catskills aren't, just in a different way.
