Welcome to NEFF

Sign up for a new account today, or log on with your old account!
Register

Give us a try!

Welcome back to the new NEFF. Take a break from Twitter and Facebook. You don't go to Dicks for your fly fishing gear, you go to your local fly fishing store. Enjoy!

Conservation and water rights

golden beetle said:
Ok.

So FF made some interesting points.

First, is that demand for water is DECREASING.

Wow.

Not quite sure what planet he's on.

But let's focus on upstate New York, and the local economy.

FF, you are concerned with economic opportunity upstate, arent you?

So let's focus on your pet issue, which is economic opportunity upstate.

You recently posted some article about residents wanting to SECEDE from New York State, because of Cuomo's ban on FRACKING.

SO economic opportunity is VERY important to you.

SO MUCH SO that you've posted about SECESSION from New York, due to the ECONOMIC OPPRESSION of your region, by NEW YORK CITY LIBERALS, who have BANNED FRACKING.

Am I right?

So let's talk about your claim that we should THANK NYC now!

Hahahaha!

Or your claim that DEMAND FOR WATER IS DECREASING!

Aren't you forgetting your NEIGHBORS, FF?

Ask TR if demand for water is DECREASING.

He'd disagree I think...

Ask any of the local businesses in Hancock, if demand for water is DECREASING.

Why arent you worried about them, FF?

Basically, FF, you appear to want this fishery gone.

I think, in your little world, that you imagine, if it werent for the fishing, and associated conservation...

And with all those businesses - dependent on the fishery, and supportive of conservation - gone and out of the way...

That there would be more economic opportunity upstate....

For you.

It aint about your neighbors...

Only you.

Right?

Mr. FRICK FRACK?
Click to expand...

Let me bump this up and hope for a reply.

Until then...

The natural world - GB Magazine
 
As sea levels continue to rise, the southern Manhattan shorelines will become uninhabitable, so they will have a lower population and need less fresh water, boy those fish and guides will be happy, happy when that happens.....won't they.....:)
 
Future Fanatic said:
Without the dams that are there NOW, how would that fishery be doin' today?
Walton gauge is at 106cfs.
According to the experts that post here, it seems that a natural flow at THAT level would have killed the trout off.

Mother Nature doesn't seem to care about your "right" to a cold water fishery.

Today, we should be thanking NYC for what we've got, no?
Click to expand...

No we should not be thanking NYC.

If you really took the time to understand how much water is available you would realize that there is enough water to accomplish 3 things.

1.NYC Drinking water

2.Montaque at 1750

3.Enough water for a healthy fishery.


You don't need need a 1000 cfs, in fact you don't need even 500 cfs on the WB


It was proven many years ago "The Shepard Study" that 325 CFS would provide enough water to keep the trout healthy from the top to bottom of the WB.

You need a little more on the EB (maybe 75 cfs) to keep it cool enough to Harvard and the Neversink maybe another 40 cfs.

What you need to understand is that the FFMP only uses the Cannonsville,Pepacton and the Neversink as Total Storage.


They are not taking into account the 4 other reservoirs.

1.Schoharie
2.Ashokan
3.Rondout
4.Croton

These 4 are accounted in there equation for drinking purposes but not the FFMP.

That's roughly 260 Billion Gallons of additional water they have.


You also now have

1.Lake Wallenpaupack
2.Rio

To take care of Montaque, which wasn't the case 7/8 years ago.

So in other words there is plenty of water in the entire system to achieve all 3 goals.

If you told me we're going to 325 cfs from May through August I'd throw the party.

I don't think everyone would agree with the lower number but it would work for the fishery.

However you do need thermal protection down to Buck.Forget Calicoon,Hankins, and Lordville.

That has to be in place..It never should get above 72 down to Buck.

You could pulse water from Midnight to Noon the next day at 1000.It would bring the temps down low enough where you probably could go every other day until the heat wave subsides..The 1000 is just an educated guess it could be less.

To reiterate this thermal protection is not a consistent release.

Just some ideas, but I really think if your going to express your opinions you need to be educated on the subject as some of us "complainers" are.
 
Last edited:
Just a side note. NYC water usage has gone down due to managing and reducing the number of leaks. Right now NYC uses 1.1 billion gallons per day. What is not and cannot be monitored is what is called "unaccounted for water" That is water that is lost due to theft, (yes people steal water just like they do electricity etc) Also the tunnels themselves are leaking and causing major issues. (Google Warwarsing NY sinking) This is not totaled up in the figures that make up the 1.1 billion gallons per day. So the need to supply the 1.1 billion is more than 1.1 billion
 
JOE.T said:
No we should not be thanking NYC.

If you really took the time to understand how much water is available you would realize that there is enough water to accomplish 3 things.

1.NYC Drinking water

2.Montaque at 1750

3.Enough water for a healthy fishery.


You don't need need a 1000 cfs, in fact you don't need even 500 cfs on the WB


It was proven many years ago "The Shepard Study" that 325 CFS would provide enough water to keep the trout healthy from the top to bottom of the WB.

You need a little more on the EB (maybe 75 cfs) to keep it cool enough to Harvard and the Neversink maybe another 40 cfs.

What you need to understand is that the FFMP only uses the Cannonsville,Pepacton and the Neversink as Total Storage.


They are not taking into account the 4 other reservoirs.

1.Schoharie
2.Ashokan
3.Rondout
4.Croton

These 4 are accounted in there equation for drinking purposes but not the FFMP.

That's roughly 260 Billion Gallons of additional water they have.


You also now have

1.Lake Wallenpaupack
2.Rio

To take care of Montaque, which wasn't the case 7/8 years ago.

So in other words there is plenty of water in the entire system to achieve all 3 goals.

If you told me we're going to 325 cfs from May through August I'd throw the party.

I don't think everyone would agree with the lower number but it would work for the fishery.

However you do need thermal protection down to Buck.Forget Calicoon,Hankins, and Lordville.

That has to be in place..It never should get above 72 down to Buck.

You could pulse water from Midnight to Noon the next day at 1000.It would bring the temps down low enough where you probably could go every other day until the heat wave subsides..The 1000 is just an educated guess it could be less.

To reiterate this thermal protection is not a consistent release.

Just some ideas, but I really think if your going to express your opinions you need to be educated on the subject as some of us "complainers" are.
Click to expand...

You don't have Lake Wallenpaupak. The lake is owned by PP&l. it is there for the purpose of generating auxillary power if needed. But it does not run all the time. Additionally, they maintain the lake for boating and will not reduce the level all that much in the summer.

1000 cfs is that all? for 12 hours a day. do you know how much water that is?
 
WBDluver said:
You don't have Lake Wallenpaupak. The lake is owned by PP&l. it is there for the purpose of generating auxillary power if needed. But it does not run all the time. Additionally, they maintain the lake for boating and will not reduce the level all that much in the summer.

1000 cfs is that all? for 12 hours a day. do you know how much water that is?
Click to expand...

I know who owns it but they pulse water all summer for Montaque, just look at the USGS Gage.However there is a certain level that they stop, that's why we get the big releases in the fall down the WB


Here is the USGS Gage ,water released from Lake Wallenpaupak

I ran 5/1/14 - 9/1/14 all that water was used for power and for Montaque.Sweet deal for NYC and PPL

USGS Current Conditions for USGS 01432110 Lackawaxen River at Rowland, PA

Of course I know how much a 1000 is, the West Branch is my second home.

Like I said the 1000 is an educated guess it could be less..You need to place thermo-graphs at Parker,Stockport and Buck and have them release water in the summer to come up with an exact number.

Or maybe Jim already knows that number from his modeling.

When I was with the DRF Jim placed Thermo-graphs at certain locations to ascertain water temps.

Hope that clarifies.
 
Future Fanatic said:
I'm not quite sure you want of me, GB?

My thoughts on "Water for Jobs"?

NYC should give up water to help Delaware County residents keep their jobs?

I mean, you're serious about that?
Click to expand...

Of course I am serious about that.

The jobs are important.

So is the Catskills heritage and tradition.

It is our Yosemite, but I would say the Catskills have a much richer tradition.

O yes, I love it so!

And my kids will share in it, for generation after generation, long after I am gone.

Yes!

Try to wrap your head around that idea, that we should manage the water releases in order to preserve local jobs and a beautiful and rich tradition.

The greatest place in the country.

Publicly shared.

Yes!

I am serious about jobs and economic opportunity!

And our local heritage and tradition!

Yes.
 
JOE.T said:
No we should not be thanking NYC.
Click to expand...

Really?

If it weren't for NYC's dams, today, there would be a flow of water on the WB at Hale Eddy of about 150cfs of WARM, non-artificially cooled, water. In fact, it's been under 200cfs for over a week. With those hot air temps we had...

If you are telling me that all the trout in the WB can survive under 200cfs of water that is probably near 80 peak degrees for a couple of weeks, then what do these super fish need a 500cfs of cold water for?
 
golden beetle said:
As of now, releases of reservoir water from the Catskills maintain the salt line.
Click to expand...

Shut the fuck up beetle. You think whatever trickle is coming out of these reservoirs is holding back the atlantic ocean?? Have you seen the del where it reaches the ocean? I'd love to see where you got that data from. Or are you just talking out of your ass, per usual? You sound like an asshole. Get a job you bum.
 
Future Fanatic said:
Really?

If it weren't for NYC's dams, today, there would be a flow of water on the WB at Hale Eddy of about 150cfs of WARM, non-artificially cooled, water. In fact, it's been under 200cfs for over a week. With those hot air temps we had...

If you are telling me that all the trout in the WB can survive under 200cfs of water that is probably near 80 peak degrees for a couple of weeks, then what do these super fish need a 500cfs of cold water for?
Click to expand...

SLOW DOWN!

Sounds like you're thanking NYC?

Future Fanatic said:
And it all leads to silly stuff like this...

To secede or not to secede? | WBNG-TV: News, Sports and Weather Binghamton, New York | Local

Well... THAT and slashed tires of down and outta staters ;)...
and a furtherance of a declining economy and way of life... and the logging of forests to pay the bills... and subdividing of farmlands to make the tax payments... and...
Click to expand...

But not long ago, you were bemoaning NYC, for its liberal politicians, who banned fracking?

What happened to your concern?

For economic opportunity upstate?
 
Last edited:
emoussa said:
Shut the fuck up beetle. You think whatever trickle is coming out of these reservoirs is holding back the atlantic ocean?? Have you seen the del where it reaches the ocean? I'd love to see where you got that data from. Or are you just talking out of your ass, per usual? You sound like an asshole. Get a job you bum.
Click to expand...

Yes, it does.
 
golden beetle said:
Of course I am serious about that.

The jobs are important.

So is the Catskills heritage and tradition.

It is our Yosemite, but I would say the Catskills have a much richer tradition.

O yes, I love it so!

And my kids will share in it, for generation after generation, long after I am gone.

Yes!

Try to wrap your head around that idea, that we should manage the water releases in order to preserve local jobs and a beautiful and rich tradition.

The greatest place in the country.

Publicly shared.

Yes!

I am serious about jobs and economic opportunity!

And our local heritage and tradition!

Yes.
Click to expand...

I almost TOTALLY agree.
And given your previous thoughts on water rights...
I hope you ARE serious about everything I've quoted here...

Well, I'll have a few hours, in a few hours...
 
emoussa said:
Shut the fuck up beetle. You think whatever trickle is coming out of these reservoirs is holding back the atlantic ocean?? Have you seen the del where it reaches the ocean? I'd love to see where you got that data from. Or are you just talking out of your ass, per usual? You sound like an asshole. Get a job you bum.
Click to expand...

Anyone care to help out here?

This article in GB Mag is very helpful.

Delaware tailwaters - GB Magazine
 
I stand with you...

golden beetle said:
The jobs are important.

So is the Catskills heritage and tradition.

we should manage the water releases in order to preserve local jobs and a beautiful and rich tradition.

The greatest place in the country.

I am serious about jobs and economic opportunity!

And our local heritage and tradition!

Yes.
Click to expand...

The day has come when a far left, socialist, frackicrite citiot and a fiscal conservative, social moderate pragmatist can come together on an issue.
GB understands, as do I, that the economy of the upstate region of NY has been decimated over the years by onerous regulation, changing demographics and malevolent policies placed upon it by a far and overreaching government entity. Specifically, Delaware County, has experienced a tremendous blow to a small but important sector of its economy.

It is time we ALL stood up and fought the powers that be to demand of them to do ALL they can do to ensure that this hard working group of self-reliant men and women can achieve the heights of not only their own potential , but the full economic potential that is Delaware County’s. And at the same time, this would benefit those around the wider region and across the country and globe who can partake of what Delaware County has(or would have) to offer.

NYC, with the weight of the Supreme Court behind it, collects all the water that flows across the pristine landscape of Delaware County, save that which flows west to the Susquehanna. This water is collected by NYC and used to mitigate NYC’s legal responsibility to the states further down the Delaware River OR piped to NYC to be sold to its citizens. Billions of gallons each year are TAKEN from the people of Delaware County for the BENEFIT of NYC.

At the same time hard working men and women watch in dismay as their livelihoods slip away with the swirling water down the Delaware. Some hold on, hope against hope, wondering will this be the year it turns around or will this be the year we lose it all, for good.

And what of these self-reliant, hard workers, struggling to make a living? They toil in what GB describes as a job with a beautiful and rich tradition. INDEED. The storied Catskills and the Delaware Valley proper have for over two hundred years blessed and vexed these intrepid souls with an opportunity like no other. These folks work in concert with nature, reading the subtle ebbs and flows of Mother Earth to bring forth for customers a bounty from nature herself.

As GB wrote,
“The jobs are important.
So is the Catskills heritage and tradition.
It is our Yosemite, but I would say the Catskills have a much richer tradition.”

Both GB and I agree the good folks in NYC deserve to quench their thirsts, but we also agree there is more than enough water available to do that, as well as support Delaware County’s hard working men and women.

SO, GB and I have banded together to fight the good fight. It is time for NYC to GIVE BACK the water they do not need. They MUST be forced to delineate the water that is excess and provide it to those hard working Delaware County citizens for the benefit of all. Mother Nature has seen fit to bless Delaware County with ample rain, and the people of Delaware County, the vested local PUBLIC, deserve to be given the opportunity, neigh, demand their right to pursue happiness as they see fit, a career, a life in FARMING.

Both GB and I agree the $50,000,000 that farming brings in to Delaware County alone could be DOUBLED if NYC would allow farmers in the fertile Delaware River Valley to irrigate their farms with the water that would otherwise be sent spilling into the reservoir. The 200 year old tradition of scratching out a living and providing farm fresh products to the world could enter a new era, given the water it so richly deserves. With irrigation, the variety of crops that could be grown becomes a literal cornucopia chock full of Mother Earthly Goodness.

It would benefit NYC, too. NYC is CLAMORING for farm fresh as well as organic foods. Delaware County could take NYC’s excess water and return it to the millions of NYC citizens in the form of wholesome fresh food. GB particularly loves the idea that these crops would necessitate hundreds of NEW workers, recently arrived from Mesoamerica , to leave NYC and work the farms of Delaware County as migrant workers. It’s a win-win and GB and I need you to call on NYC to allow Delaware County farmers to irrigate the fields. It’s our economy; it’s our jobs; it's our water; it’s our heritage; it’s our tradition; it’s our right.
 
Future Fanatic said:
I stand with you...



The day has come when a far left, socialist, frackicrite citiot and a fiscal conservative, social moderate pragmatist can come together on an issue.
GB understands, as do I, that the economy of the upstate region of NY has been decimated over the years by onerous regulation, changing demographics and malevolent policies placed upon it by a far and overreaching government entity. Specifically, Delaware County, has experienced a tremendous blow to a small but important sector of its economy.

It is time we ALL stood up and fought the powers that be to demand of them to do ALL they can do to ensure that this hard working group of self-reliant men and women can achieve the heights of not only their own potential , but the full economic potential that is Delaware County’s. And at the same time, this would benefit those around the wider region and across the country and globe who can partake of what Delaware County has(or would have) to offer.

NYC, with the weight of the Supreme Court behind it, collects all the water that flows across the pristine landscape of Delaware County, save that which flows west to the Susquehanna. This water is collected by NYC and used to mitigate NYC’s legal responsibility to the states further down the Delaware River OR piped to NYC to be sold to its citizens. Billions of gallons each year are TAKEN from the people of Delaware County for the BENEFIT of NYC.

At the same time hard working men and women watch in dismay as their livelihoods slip away with the swirling water down the Delaware. Some hold on, hope against hope, wondering will this be the year it turns around or will this be the year we lose it all, for good.

And what of these self-reliant, hard workers, struggling to make a living? They toil in what GB describes as a job with a beautiful and rich tradition. INDEED. The storied Catskills and the Delaware Valley proper have for over two hundred years blessed and vexed these intrepid souls with an opportunity like no other. These folks work in concert with nature, reading the subtle ebbs and flows of Mother Earth to bring forth for customers a bounty from nature herself.

As GB wrote,
“The jobs are important.
So is the Catskills heritage and tradition.
It is our Yosemite, but I would say the Catskills have a much richer tradition.”

Both GB and I agree the good folks in NYC deserve to quench their thirsts, but we also agree there is more than enough water available to do that, as well as support Delaware County’s hard working men and women.

SO, GB and I have banded together to fight the good fight. It is time for NYC to GIVE BACK the water they do not need. They MUST be forced to delineate the water that is excess and provide it to those hard working Delaware County citizens for the benefit of all. Mother Nature has seen fit to bless Delaware County with ample rain, and the people of Delaware County, the vested local PUBLIC, deserve to be given the opportunity, neigh, demand their right to pursue happiness as they see fit, a career, a life in FARMING.

Both GB and I agree the $50,000,000 that farming brings in to Delaware County alone could be DOUBLED if NYC would allow farmers in the fertile Delaware River Valley to irrigate their farms with the water that would otherwise be sent spilling into the reservoir. The 200 year old tradition of scratching out a living and providing farm fresh products to the world could enter a new era, given the water it so richly deserves. With irrigation, the variety of crops that could be grown becomes a literal cornucopia chock full of Mother Earthly Goodness.

It would benefit NYC, too. NYC is CLAMORING for farm fresh as well as organic foods. Delaware County could take NYC’s excess water and return it to the millions of NYC citizens in the form of wholesome fresh food. GB particularly loves the idea that these crops would necessitate hundreds of NEW workers, recently arrived from Mesoamerica , to leave NYC and work the farms of Delaware County as migrant workers. It’s a win-win and GB and I need you to call on NYC to allow Delaware County farmers to irrigate the fields. It’s our economy; it’s our jobs; it's our water; it’s our heritage; it’s our tradition; it’s our right.
Click to expand...

You lost your mind, FF.
 
Future Fanatic said:
I stand with you...



The day has come when a far left, socialist, frackicrite citiot and a fiscal conservative, social moderate pragmatist can come together on an issue.
GB understands, as do I, that the economy of the upstate region of NY has been decimated over the years by onerous regulation, changing demographics and malevolent policies placed upon it by a far and overreaching government entity. Specifically, Delaware County, has experienced a tremendous blow to a small but important sector of its economy.

It is time we ALL stood up and fought the powers that be to demand of them to do ALL they can do to ensure that this hard working group of self-reliant men and women can achieve the heights of not only their own potential , but the full economic potential that is Delaware County’s. And at the same time, this would benefit those around the wider region and across the country and globe who can partake of what Delaware County has(or would have) to offer.

NYC, with the weight of the Supreme Court behind it, collects all the water that flows across the pristine landscape of Delaware County, save that which flows west to the Susquehanna. This water is collected by NYC and used to mitigate NYC’s legal responsibility to the states further down the Delaware River OR piped to NYC to be sold to its citizens. Billions of gallons each year are TAKEN from the people of Delaware County for the BENEFIT of NYC.

At the same time hard working men and women watch in dismay as their livelihoods slip away with the swirling water down the Delaware. Some hold on, hope against hope, wondering will this be the year it turns around or will this be the year we lose it all, for good.

And what of these self-reliant, hard workers, struggling to make a living? They toil in what GB describes as a job with a beautiful and rich tradition. INDEED. The storied Catskills and the Delaware Valley proper have for over two hundred years blessed and vexed these intrepid souls with an opportunity like no other. These folks work in concert with nature, reading the subtle ebbs and flows of Mother Earth to bring forth for customers a bounty from nature herself.

As GB wrote,
“The jobs are important.
So is the Catskills heritage and tradition.
It is our Yosemite, but I would say the Catskills have a much richer tradition.”

Both GB and I agree the good folks in NYC deserve to quench their thirsts, but we also agree there is more than enough water available to do that, as well as support Delaware County’s hard working men and women.

SO, GB and I have banded together to fight the good fight. It is time for NYC to GIVE BACK the water they do not need. They MUST be forced to delineate the water that is excess and provide it to those hard working Delaware County citizens for the benefit of all. Mother Nature has seen fit to bless Delaware County with ample rain, and the people of Delaware County, the vested local PUBLIC, deserve to be given the opportunity, neigh, demand their right to pursue happiness as they see fit, a career, a life in FARMING.

Both GB and I agree the $50,000,000 that farming brings in to Delaware County alone could be DOUBLED if NYC would allow farmers in the fertile Delaware River Valley to irrigate their farms with the water that would otherwise be sent spilling into the reservoir. The 200 year old tradition of scratching out a living and providing farm fresh products to the world could enter a new era, given the water it so richly deserves. With irrigation, the variety of crops that could be grown becomes a literal cornucopia chock full of Mother Earthly Goodness.

It would benefit NYC, too. NYC is CLAMORING for farm fresh as well as organic foods. Delaware County could take NYC’s excess water and return it to the millions of NYC citizens in the form of wholesome fresh food. GB particularly loves the idea that these crops would necessitate hundreds of NEW workers, recently arrived from Mesoamerica , to leave NYC and work the farms of Delaware County as migrant workers. It’s a win-win and GB and I need you to call on NYC to allow Delaware County farmers to irrigate the fields. It’s our economy; it’s our jobs; it's our water; it’s our heritage; it’s our tradition; it’s our right.
Click to expand...


Read it again all, but listen to this track as you do......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5mmFPyDK_8
 
lightenup said:
Read it again all, but listen to this track as you do......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5mmFPyDK_8
Click to expand...

See, YOU get it...

Why WOULDN'T GB get behind this?

Unless, of course, this is all just bullshit:

golden beetle said:
Try to wrap your head around that idea, that we should manage the water releases in order to preserve local jobs and a beautiful and rich tradition.

The greatest place in the country.

Publicly shared.

Yes!

I am serious about jobs and economic opportunity!

And our local heritage and tradition!

Yes.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

thrashers.wheat
Access vs. Preservation
Replies
12
Views
5K
Simms
Simms
Future Fanatic
Wall Street Journal opinion piece on fracking
Replies
27
Views
12K
Oliver10
Oliver10
S
Help Roscoe Win and fight drilling of natural gas
Replies
0
Views
3K
setters45
S
mob201
Public Hearing - Proposal to Drain the West Branch for Fracking Water
Replies
26
Views
11K
Future Fanatic
Future Fanatic
Rambler23
Big Hole River, Montana
Replies
6
Views
4K
AKSkim
A
Back
Top