Conservation and water rights

[golden beetle]

The Upper Delaware economy is getting killed this spring.

Its a ghost town.

Let me distill the issue, as simply as possible.

New York City needs water.

To drink.

If they dont have that drinking water, they're in deep shit.

We all get that.

But here's the sad truth.

Life is not satisfying, and the needs of a man are not met by a glassful of water.

How sad it is when we've allowed this city to grow, to the point where its need for drinking water leaves none for our fishery.

None for nature.

That is what's sad.

We take, take, take from the earth's abundance, until it has nothing left to give.

The insights, art, literature and painting of anglers, birdwatchers and outdoorsmen have no value, if there is no water to drink.

Of course not!

But to live without any natural world left.

You're getting to see the world we are leaving our kids.

To increase worker productivity, ya know whats effective??

40 second microbreaks, where workers stare at digital images of the natural world.

That's gone.

Just looking at nature can help your brain work better, study finds - The Washington Post

 

[lightenup]

Eventually we will have this Beetle....
Coruscant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Clean drinking water will always be the only limiting factor to human growth on this planet. In time, more and more will come to grips with that fact and realize that the best water is water filtered by natural means. That will lead to better management of our water resources over time. But those battles won't come easy to say the least.

It has been written and said many times that the wars of the future will be fought over water and not over nukes, food, or most anything else. Control the water and you control the power.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Clean drinking water will always be the only limiting factor to human growth on this planet. In time, more and more will come to grips with that fact and realize that the best water is water filtered by natural means. That will lead to better management of our water resources over time. But those battles won't come easy to say the least.

It has been written and said many times that the wars of the future will be fought over water and not over nukes, food, or most anything else. Control the water and you control the power.

Who "owns" the water in the sky?
Who "owns" the water when it hits the ground?
Who "owns" the water under the ground?

They aren't easy answers...

 

[golden beetle]

Who "owns" the water in the sky?
Who "owns" the water when it hits the ground?
Who "owns" the water under the ground?

They aren't easy answers...

The public.

Easy.

 

[Future Fanatic]

The public.

Easy.

Who is the public?

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Who is the public?

In the end, whomever has the most and biggest guns, I guess. I'm still accumulating, but I like my early odds

 

[golden beetle]

Who is the public?

Thats a political question.

I am not gonna get hung up on questions like this, as if they need to be answered now - before vigorous political debate where everyone has a chance to be heard, within the context of existing democratic institutions and traditions.

These are complex questions of jurisdiction, you know it well, and the body of procedural caselaw that determines questions of jurisdiction would apply here, without me needing to explain or justify it here.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Thats a political question.

I am not gonna get hung up on questions like this, as if they need to be answered now - before vigorous political debate where everyone has a chance to be heard, within the context of existing democratic institutions and traditions.

These are complex questions of jurisdiction, you know it well, and the body of procedural caselaw that determines questions of jurisdiction would apply here, without me needing to explain or justify it here.

Oh...

So it's not easy....

 

[golden beetle]

Oh...

So it's not easy....

Ok.

The public owns the water. That is settled.

So who is the public, you ask?

Here's an analogous question.

Who can vote in the 2016 presidential election?

Just whites?

Just men?

Just property owners?

Just Americans?

Just those without a criminal record?

Complicated perhaps, for you.

Or for me, if I had to answer it myself, without help, right now.

But simple to address over time, and to get it right, or close to right, by evolving and changing as necessary.

As a community.

 

[WBDluver]

Its a double edged sword. Without NYC need for water there would be no tail water fishery to begin with. Like I said before, Appreciation turns into expectation, then entitlement. Just look at the attitudes on some of the threads on here. Phase 1 Appreciation, wow this has created a great cold water fishery. Phase 2 Expection, where's my cold water? Phase 3 Entitlement, I demand cold water for my business and my fishing. we should sue!

 

[golden beetle]

Its a double edged sword. Without NYC need for water there would be no tail water fishery to begin with. Like I said before, Appreciation turns into expectation, then entitlement. Just look at the attitudes on some of the threads on here. Phase 1 Appreciation, wow this has created a great cold water fishery. Phase 2 Expection, where's my cold water? Phase 3 Entitlement, I demand cold water for my business and my fishing. we should sue!

I like this. But it is wrong.

The Catskills had a world class brook trout fishery that was destroyed irretrievably by the reservoir system.

It is our right to limit capitalism, as it threatens to destroy everything unless we put on the brakes.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Ok.

The public owns the water. That is settled.

So who is the public, you ask?

Here's an analogous question.

Who can vote in the 2016 presidential election?

Just whites?

Just men?

Just property owners?

Just Americans?

Just those without a criminal record?

Complicated perhaps, for you.

Or for me, if I had to answer it myself, without help, right now.

But simple to address over time, and to get it right, or close to right, by evolving and changing as necessary.

As a community.

Oh...
So, by public, you mean people living in the U.S.

So the people in California have a right to water in Cannonsville...

And what about water in the ocean...

or better yet which public owns the water in the Great Lakes?

and if I steal a bottle of Aquafina from a 7-11, it would be an act of civil disobedience?

 

[golden beetle]

Oh...
So, by public, you mean people living in the U.S.

So the people in California have a right to water in Cannonsville...

And what about water in the ocean...

or better yet which public owns the water in the Great Lakes?

and if I steal a bottle of Aquafina from a 7-11, it would be an act of civil disobedience?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Yeah, I know, the minutiae get complicated and boring...

 

[Trout Nazi]

So can I go and rob a jewelry store then? Diamonds, gold, and silver came out of the ground so technically its mine, I mean ours (I'll share, I promise....), anyway. I'm just taking it back.

 

[golden beetle]

So can I go and rob a jewelry store then? Diamonds, gold, and silver came out of the ground so technically its mine, I mean ours (I'll share, I promise....), anyway. I'm just taking it back.

No.

You cant.

 

[Future Fanatic]

No.

You cant.

But it came out of the ground...

It belongs to the "public", right?

 

[golden beetle]

But it came out of the ground...

It belongs to the "public", right?

No.

Gold that has been unearthed for centuries is not really relevant to the analysis.

Lets say a lot of gold and diamonds were in New York City.

And there are.

It wouldn't affect my ability to make a living in the Catskills.

Its different than water.

Now, in a crisis, I would tax that old gold.

Let's say if a Republican is elected President.

ok.

Go fight more wars if you want to, whitey.

But you gotta pay this time.

With yer gold.

 

[WBDluver]

The Upper Delaware economy is getting killed this spring.

Its a ghost town.

I don't get your response to my post? You talk about the economy and then say the dams should not be there in the first place? Without those dams there would be no Guides and lodges that cater to fly fishing.

 

[golden beetle]

Dluver...

200 years ago those rivers were filled with brookies.

The water was cold.

Yes, it is our right to have a coldwater fishery there.

Would I trade it...

For 100 colorful beads and a bag of wampum?

No fuckin deal.

 

[tomfly]

GB is you argument that water should be in the public domain and there should be no water rights?

 

[golden beetle]

GB is you argument that water should be in the public domain and there should be no water rights?

No.

My argument is simpler than that.

Water is public property.

The public can decide how to allocate it, as it decides democratically.

Look, I love NYC.

But its time to put the brakes on.

And let the city contract a bit.

 

[tomfly]

No.

My argument is simpler than that.

Water is public property.

The public can decide how to allocate it, as it decides democratically.

Ok; what if the population decides that drinking water of a large metropolis is more important then the seasonal economy of a small demographic. That could be a conclusion that you may have not considered.

 

[golden beetle]

Ok; what if the population decides that drinking water of a large metropolis is more important then the seasonal economy of a small demographic. That could be a conclusion that you may have not considered.

I would accept the democratic outcome, if it were against me.

But that's bs.

You can take the 100 colorful beads...

And the bag of wampum.

For our waterways.

 

[MACFLY]

Why is it bs?

I would accept the democratic outcome, if it were against me.

But that's bs.

You can take the 100 colorful beads...

And the bag of wampum.

For our waterways.

 

[MACFLY]

What method of population control do you suggest?

No.

My argument is simpler than that.

Water is public property.

The public can decide how to allocate it, as it decides democratically.

Look, I love NYC.

But its time to put the brakes on.

And let the city contract a bit.

 

[golden beetle]

Why is it bs?

You think that we, the people, want to see the Delaware dewatered?

Maybe you, Mac.

But not the rest of us....

 

[MACFLY]

But that's not the choice. That's your spin on the choice. You are all over the map. Question was pretty simple. If NYC decides water more importsnt for people then trout would you be ok with that. You say yes but then say bs. You imply in another post that NYC should stop growing so we can save the tailwater fishery. That's frankly insane. I agree that water is not a commodity to be controlled by private interests but nor is it something To be withheld by government so that fish can be saved either. Sorry humans are more important then whether you get to flyfish or not.

You think that we, the people, want to see the Delaware dewatered?

Maybe you, Mac.

But not the rest of us....

 

[tomfly]

You think that we, the people, want to see the Delaware dewatered?

Maybe you, Mac.

But not the rest of us....

GB look at the Colorado it is de-watered when it hits the Pacific. So again an outcome that you did not ponder.