Ken Lockwood Gorge road update

[quality time]

Tu is the biggest joke !!!!!!! the mere fact that this issue was not brought up for public discussion , why is when an issue such as this is only limit to the privileged few from Tu and not everyone to comment ! Mike ,it time to start filming these meeting held by the state , maybe more people need to know that it all about the money !!!! and not the environment , and the river .

John....for someone who partially makes a living off of guiding there, you should have known more about what was going on. Don't go bashing them for your inability to stay in the information loop. I'm no fan of TU national operations, but it's clear to me that the local guys around here work their butts off and their hearts are in the right places.

Oh, and what's your better idea on how to handle the road situation?

QT

 

[Rusty Spinner]

I give John a pass because he is a TU member and he's just a passionate person. I don't believe he really feels this way about an organization he believes in. I steered him to the right folks at F&W to speak to and review the plans if he wants to.

 

[trico mike]

There is no doubt the road needs to be repaired and the plans [from what I have read] are not perfect but they are a step in the right direction. It seems that no matter what is going to be done there is no miracle fix. Mother nature tends to do what she wants no matter what. The one thing I would disagree with some of the posts on is the regulations that were changed years ago.I feel the gorge used to fish much better when it was under general regulations for the first 2 weeks then it went to fly fishing only.I am not blaming the problems on spinning rodders . It seems that since the new regulations came about the gorge is way more crowded. I rember during the old fall stockings I used to be able to fish from the top to the trestle without seeing but one or two guys. Now we get the crazy ness that happaned last year.[Wow do I sound old] :crap:

 

[Agust]

The former regulation allowed for the harvest of 4 trout a day from May until the following March. So while there may have been fewer fisherman in October, there were certainly fewer trout to fish for. Those regulations also allowed bait to be used fro the first two weeks of the season, so that many holdover or pre-season trout tended to get harvested.

Unfortunately with improved fishing, came more fisherman. On a bright not, with all of the fly fisherman packed into the Gorge the middle and upper river as much less crowded.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

It seems that since the new regulations came about the gorge is way more crowded.

I think as Agust says, it is better and therefore gets much more pressure now than before the TCA designation. I'd like to see additional TCAs on our highest quality habitat so we can better "spread the love". That will lower crowds on KLG or Pequest or Pount Mtn TCAs. The others don't get nearly the pressure currently. I think there is room for another TCA on the SBR and at least one more some day for the Musky. That's in addition to Pat's attempts to bring one for the Flatbrook.

 

[trico mike]

During the former regulations alot of trout were left after the first two weeks because that time of year usually brings high water and spread out fish. Not once did I ever see another fly fisherman keeping trout during the fly only periods. The river was always much less crowded and seemed to have more fish that weren't over fished. Now any given day brings crowds pounding the same water over and over. The only good thing it did for me was to get me exploring in Pa and I discovered a much better world of trout fishing. Yes I still go to the gorge a few times a year but more likely then not I drive the extra 20 minutes west to get to trout paradise.

 

[Agust]

During the former regulations alot of trout were left after the first two weeks because that time of year usually brings high water and spread out fish. Not once did I ever see another fly fisherman keeping trout during the fly only periods.

Not sure how often you used to go there or when, but I saw many, many, many fly anglers with stringers prior to the reg change. It used to be even worse when they allowed bait from November until March. (Any of you remember TU lobbying to change that?) I even witnessed a few guys "swapping" a small fish on the stringer for a larger one. Just because you did not see it does not mean it did not happen.

The river was always much less crowded and seemed to have more fish that weren't over fished. Now any given day brings crowds pounding the same water over and over.

The state did stock almost twice as many fish back then, and deposited lots more culls specifically because, so many got harvested. So yes there were more freshly stocked, easy to catch fish. Now there may be fewer fish (though electro fishing surveys indicate there are more than ever) , there are many more holdovers and they are harder to catch.

The only good thing it did for me was to get me exploring in Pa and I discovered a much better world of trout fishing. Yes I still go to the gorge a few times a year but more likely then not I drive the extra 20 minutes west to get to trout paradise.

Good for you, don't let the toll booth hit you in the creel on the way out. I also fish in Pa, NY as well as a couple other states every year. However, when I only have 2 hours to sneak in some fishing, driving an extra 40 minutes (there and back) and paying a toll does not seem like paradise. Your mileage may vary.

Agust

 

[JeffK]

I think the KLG crowds are way up for two reasons:
1. Hunterdon County has turned from a rural county to a suburban area - KLG is more like a town park than a WMA these days.
2. The TCAs are very popular since most people want to head to a known quantity. At the Pequest, Muskie, and SBR there are places pretty much as good as the TCAs within a few miles away that hardly see an angler while the TCAs are pretty much packed every day of the year.

As a whitewater canoer I liked the old regulations since there was a 5-6 week closed season right in the middle of whitewater season.

I do want to see the best practices used for the road and probably more importantly the the retaining walls to be built here and there in the Gorge. However, IMHO the sediment problem relates to the whole watershed all the way to Budd Lake. When I went off the deep end about the sedimentation in downtown Long Valley two years ago I walked the stream for a few miles and found no single problem - just a general increase in bank erosion from the spikier flows as the valley gets developed. All the sediment has to run through the gorge.

My last comment is that everyone seems to want the last parking spot! If the Gorge is to be used where will people park. At the lower end there is room for parking so the road can be closed close to the lower boundary of the WMA. At the upper end the Trestle area is the only area where it is feasible to park unless some other properties become available. Once a parking lot is in then the pull offs on the road will be closed to parking.

 

[trico mike]

I started fishing the gorge in the early 80's as a young lad. when I got my driving license I was ther more often then not. I'm not disputing that the fish numbers are up, but the quality of the fishing experiance has diminished. Some days the crowding gets so bad its hard to work streches of water without disturbing others. If you factor that there are more guys on the water more fish doesn't help if you can't get in the water to fish. I don't souly blame the regulation changes but more the over hyping of the gorge as a premier stretch of river in Nj [wich it is] The publicity of the river from the state local shops and guides has really hurt the gorge. The one thing I love about fishing more then anything is solitude so if I have to pay an extra 75 cents to cross a bridge so be it.

 

[Pete]

Some "Troll" posts, Off topic posts, posts containing personal attacks, and (for context) replies to those posts, were moved to a separate topic in an "Open Discussion" section of the forum. One deleted post was restored in the new topic.

Please continue to discuss the merits & shortcomings of the State's plan for the KLG road here.

If you wish to continue to attack our members who are affiliated with certain groups, or engage in a counterattack, please do it at http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBullet...sts-split-ken-lockwood-gorge-road-update.html

If you don't have access to the "open discussion" forums, you may send a private message to "dcabarle" and request access. If you are easily offended, you may not want access. The forum rules are "relaxed" there.

 

[The Royal Coachman]

I have fished the gorge on and off for the past 25+ years. I have always found weekends have unacceptable numbers of anglers. I just stay away. I mostly fish it on weekday mornings or evenings and I can always find a place to fish.

I used to keep fish for dinner a few times a year at the gorge and I certainly wasn't the only one. I was neutral on the new regs and I have to conclude that the quality of the fish have improved. With that comes more crowds. I suppose it's inevitable. I live close and can always sneak out for a few hours but if you're driving an hour or more from south Jersey to do some trout fishing maybe you want a know quantity.

If the road has to be kept open from the upstream end those couple of tight spots will always be a problem. Is there a plan to harden up the riparian bank there? Is there something that can be engineered to withstand at least a 10 year flood event?

 

[Rusty Spinner]

If the road has to be kept open from the upstream end those couple of tight spots will always be a problem. Is there a plan to harden up the riparian bank there? Is there something that can be engineered to withstand at least a 10 year flood event?

Yes, the road and some (not a lot as I recall) bank stabilization they need to do to shore up the trestles, are to be keyed into the ground and native trees and shrubs will be replanted anywhere necessary. This will help keep the road everyone is concerned with in place during floods since it is really the worse of the two sections as we all know.

One additional place will be in front of the kiosk along the trestle parking area. If you look closely upstream by the trestle right now, you will see some gabions that TU built and placed in there some 15+ years ago that are still holding up although the wire is rusting on some. That earlier work has kept a lot of road material debris out of the river during floods and forced the road between the trestle and the side of the mountain to erode badly, but not the stream bank at that spot. I believe those that TU built long ago will be replaced with some additional gabion sections placed. I know that both Rick Axt and I had problems with the stone they planned to use and Rick made a suggestion on a larger agregate. We also asked them to beef up the areas where they get keyed into the banks. When it comes to a river, it's hard to over-engineer an armored bank. Native plantings will help minimize their appearance just as TU planted when the first gabions were placed.

BTW - this work needs to be done to keep the RR trail open even if the road were to be one day fully closed. Otherwise the trestle will get undermined by the river. Obviously, the trestle footings should never have been built where they were in the first place, but that ship sailed long ago...

 

[japple]

I was in the gorge this morning and witnessed a construction crew running a backhoe basically digging into the edge of the river at the
Trestle parking area and dumping huge amounts of dirt, mud, silt into the river pretty much causing the river to be choked with mud from
that point down. (interesting to note that one of the crew was spinfishing above the mudslide while the work was in progress!)

<O</O
As I’m sure they should not be digging in the river, I immediately called the Division of Fish & Wildlife Enforcement office and the NJDEP
Stream encroachment office to lodge a complaint. They said they are sending folks down there to inspect what is going on. The contact person
for the project is Bob Olsen 973-383-0918 with F&W Land Management Bureau.<O</O
<O</O

I’ve attached a photo of the river below the backhoe (which was clear when I arrived before the work began).

 

[AKSkim]

I was in the gorge this morning and witnessed a construction crew running a backhoe basically digging into the edge of the river at the
Trestle parking area and dumping huge amounts of dirt, mud, silt into the river pretty much causing the river to be choked with mud from
that point down.

YO - Chicken Little...

If your looking for people to go ballistic and start screaming blood murder..

Try GIRL SCOUT TROUT... you'll get that reaction over there.

The O-ith is dead.. the O-ith is dead. Oh whoa is me.. O Whoa is me...
well thats the best I can do.

Like I said go BACK over there onto GIRL SCOUT TROUT and watch the silly-nillys go spastic...

 

[Terry]

I was at the Gorge yesterday when they dropped the trees at the parking lot. I was wondering why they were putting down gravel just upstream of the trestle. In the future - are we going to need to access the lot from Hoffman's crossing?

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Just a couple of random thoughts for all you "chicken littles" out there ("the sky is falling, the sky is falling"). All week this week I've been at a river restoration course on Walnut Brook, a SBR tributary. At any given time we had 2 large track hoes, two rubber-tired bucket loaders, a small skid-steer, and a bulldozer in the river. And yes, at times the river was yoo-hoo colored. All this in an effort to reverse the actions of the former farmer who had channelized that trib. Nobody even mentioned it or complained. Why? Because we were repairing a heavily damamged stretch of river and using heavy equipment is the only way to do so.

That is the same situation with the Gorge. Complain all you want about the state adding drainage in the beloved Gorge, but where is the outrage about the Toll Brothers develpment upstream (now completed)? Or the new golf course, also upstream? Either of those projects will have negative impacts thousands of times greater than anything the state is doing now to the Gorge for hundreds of years to come, yet all our posters (most of whom are totally uneducated in river health) will simply complain that the Gorge is being mistreated because what they refuse to recognize is that the gorge road has been dumping small amounts of silt into the river every time it rains. Now that the state is working to control it, everyone is up in arms. Ask yourself where you stand on the heavy development still ocurring upstream in and near the riparian corridor...or the dams upstream of the Gorge. Or the farms dumping heavy loads of phosphorous and pesticides?

 

[sloppy-ollies]

As someone heavily involved with the contstruction of the new golf course I can tell you that we walk on egg shells building that course and the impact it has on the SBR is minimal and we've got the tens of hundreds of feet of silt fence to prove it, not to mention having to jump through hopes with the DEP.

 

[gadfly]

..........................

 

[Pete]

As someone heavily involved with the contstruction of the new golf course I can tell you that we walk on egg shells building that course and the impact it has on the SBR is minimal and we've got the tens of hundreds of feet of silt fence to prove it, not to mention having to jump through hopes with the DEP.

The construction, if done properly, is the least of the problems. Even if there were a few "oops"...when completed, it's over.

The ongoing problems, that last as long as the course is being maintained, may include:

• Warm water runoff (fewer trees=less shade)
  Fertilizer runoff
  Weed killer runoff
  Insecticides
  etc.... (other stuff I don't know about, because I'm not a golfer)

 

[Broadheadscreek]

Just a little note if the golf course is run in a responsible manner ie; proper run off prevention buffers of high grass and tree lined banks as well as catch basin's and zero fertalizer in non play zones. They can run with little or no impact. Our local country club has managed to operate with little or no effect to the stream that runs through it and use these methods as well as testing the water at the top of the property where it enters and the bottom where it exits on a weekly basis. And the results are the same at both ends with no change in the water quality from top to bottom. The fishery and bug life are fantastic and actually improving. If you would like further information about how this is being run I can put you into contact with the golf course manager there . He is an avid fly fisherman and is interested in maintaining the quality of this stream and the plans and methods he has implemented are a huge success to date.

 

[AKSkim]

Just a little note if the golf course is run in a responsible manner ...

The world wouldn't be the same without golf courses...

Then the only thing to do if they all went away is.... fish?

 

[sloppy-ollies]

Just a little note if the golf course is run in a responsible manner ie; proper run off prevention buffers of high grass and tree lined banks as well as catch basin's and zero fertalizer in non play zones. They can run with little or no impact. Our local country club has managed to operate with little or no effect to the stream that runs through it and use these methods as well as testing the water at the top of the property where it enters and the bottom where it exits on a weekly basis. And the results are the same at both ends with no change in the water quality from top to bottom. The fishery and bug life are fantastic and actually improving. If you would like further information about how this is being run I can put you into contact with the golf course manager there . He is an avid fly fisherman and is interested in maintaining the quality of this stream and the plans and methods he has implemented are a huge success to date.

Well said. Sounds like your CC is managed the same way Black Oak is/will continue to be when complete.

From the Black Oak Golf Club website:
Black Oak Golf Club is proud to be the first golf course in the state of New Jersey seeking the Silver Level in the Audubon Signature Cooperative Sanctuary Program.
The goal of the Audubon Program is to merge wildlife conservation, habitat enhancement, resource conservation, and environmental improvement with the golf club. The Audubon Signature Program allows Audubon International and Black Oak Golf Club a common goal to construct and manage the golf course with a primary focus on environmental quality and sustainability.

While the Audobon Society has nothing to do with fish, they are interested in the enviornment in general. I can assure you, many of the key people responsible for the course design, construction, and maintnence are avid outdoorsman who have lived in Morris County for decades.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

If you want to see the negative impacts from the golf course being built in Long Valley next to the SBR, look no further than the catch basin immediately upstream of rt. 625 and Coleman Rd/Naughright Road interchange. There you will see the "catch basin" installed nearly two years ago completely full of silt and mud and now failing. All that runoff is entering into the SBR. Calls to all the authorities have yielded no action. The detention ponds were never vegetated over my personal objections (laws allow for this because vegetation seems not be important until the job is completed:finger.

Golf courses and cemeteries, the two biggest wastes of land in the US (G. Carlin)

 

[sloppy-ollies]

If you want to see the negative impacts from the golf course being built in Long Valley next to the SBR, look no further than the catch basin immediately upstream of rt. 625 and Coleman Rd/Naughright Road interchange. There you will see the "catch basin" installed nearly two years ago completely full of silt and mud and now failing. All that runoff is entering into the SBR. Calls to all the authorities have yielded no action. The detention ponds were never vegetated over my personal objections (laws allow for this because vegetation seems not be important until the job is completed:finger.

Golf courses and cemeteries, the two biggest wastes of land in the US (G. Carlin)

The catch basin you are referring to has never been filled to its capacity, not sure where you coming up with that?

 

[gadfly]

The goal of the Audubon Program is to merge wildlife conservation, habitat enhancement, resource conservation, and environmental improvement with the golf club. The Audubon Signature Program allows Audubon International and Black Oak Golf Club a common goal to construct and manage the golf course with a primary focus on environmental quality and sustainability.

While the Audobon Society has nothing to do with fish, they are interested in the enviornment in general. I can assure you, many of the key people responsible for the course design, construction, and maintnence are avid outdoorsman who have lived in Morris County for decades.

Actually, the Audubon Society has nothing to do with golf courses either. The group that "certifies" these golf courses is a questionable group called "Audubon International" which has nothing to do with the national Audubon Society, NJ Audubon Society, or any other legitimate conservation group. In fact there have been several lawsuits over this group using the Audubon name to try to get green cover for golf courses. The truth is that the whole organizations was created just to certify golf courses.

Now, I don't deny that golf courses have come along way in handing run off and pollutants, and would also agree that these "certified" courses are probably better than the norm. However, building a course like Black Oak destroys hundreds of acres of habitat, and undeniably has negative impacts on the watershed. No legitimate conservation group, certainly not a real Audubon group, is going to support that. It is down right trickery to use the name Audubon to make these courses seem like a environmental positive. Unfortunately, it continues to work in many places.

 

[gadfly]

By the way, the Black Oak GC should never have been allowed to be built. It received an exemption from the Highlands legislation even though it didn't meet the minimum requirements to receive one. Too bad for the river.

 

[sloppy-ollies]

You couldn't be more wrong. The course was under construction way before the Highlands Act was put into law, the golf course fought it in court, and it was allowed to continue. I should know, my father is a partner in that course, along with five others including my grandfather, who has owned the majority of that property for over 30 years now. Perhaps you'd perfer condos, or tract housing on the same property instead of the golf course? If you have any questions regarding the course feel free to visit the website and send out an email.

The Highlands Act is the biggerst crime in the state of NJ. Don't agree with me, go talk to the farmers in Hundterton County that owned their land for decades, only to have it devalued to nothing because of the Highland Act. The Act would have been great if the state had the money to compensate land owners for their property value like they were supposed to.:finger:

 

[Rusty Spinner]

You couldn't be more wrong. The course was under construction way before the Highlands Act was put into law, the golf course fought it in court, and it was allowed to continue. I should know, my father is a partner in that course, along with five others including my grandfather, who has owned the majority of that property for over 30 years now. Perhaps you'd perfer condos, or tract housing on the same property instead of the golf course? With modern stormwater management, one could make a case that condos would be better assuming they were on sewer systems than a golf course. I have seen the damage of the heavy use of pesticides and fertilizers to our river systems from a myriad of golf courses. All that grass (non-native grasses, BTW) act almost like impervious surfaces such as asphalt and runoff into the river is always a problem with golf courses. If you have any questions regarding the course feel free to visit the website and send out an email.

The Highlands Act is the biggerst crime in the state of NJ. Don't agree with me, go talk to the farmers in Hundterton County that owned their land for decades, only to have it devalued to nothing because of the Highland Act. The Act would have been great if the state had the money to compensate land owners for their property value like they were supposed to.:finger:

I agree with you on the Highlands Act, it needs a funding mechanism to make it a good law to properly compensate landowners, but the state supreme court feels differently I'm afraid. But to say the farmers lands are "devalued to nothing" is also not true. Devalued for certain, but not to zero. I can't blame your family for selling/developing the land as it is the American way, but please don't take a bow for destroying another part of the watershed. No offense...

 

[Stonefly]

As to the run off from this golf course into the river, I have twiced called soil conservation because of mud running it to the river.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

As to the run off from this golf course into the river, I have twiced called soil conservation because of mud running it to the river.

Even in a light rain it dumps yoo-hoo colored water into the river and I have called the DEP as well as F&W (last year).