Ken Lockwood Gorge road update

[Rusty Spinner]

Several of us were asked to review the latest plans for the Gorge road improvement project and make our comments today after the trout meeting at Pequest. The division is finally close to beginning work to stabilize the road and improve the parking issues. Lots of ground to cover, so here's my take on the project:

The road will be closed from the bottom up to the RR Trestle parking lot. There will be a gate on the lower end and one immediately downstream of the Trestle parking lot which will effectively close 2/3 of the road to car traffic. Emergency vehicles and stocking trucks will have access via a key.

Beginning upstream first, the current tiny parking lot on the Hoffman's side will see 100' of new asphalt. While asphalt is not the perfect answer, it seems to all to be the best compromise for this short stretch. Proper drainage will be addressed along the entire road, even the closed off areas.

At the Trestle parking area (just below the RR trestle itself), 3 trees will be removed as will that big rock we've all seen cars and trucks get hung up on. Additional parking will be the end result and TU volunteers will plant a native riparian buffer between the lot and the river, explaining what trees and shrubs were used and why in the kiosk.

I think I saw 3 handicapped platforms to be built and several of us expressed concerns over their current design which is wood decking on concrete pillars. We suggested the time-tested platforms that TU's Fred Burroughs/North Jersey chapter designed and built on the Pequest TCA and on the Flatbrook at 3 Bridges. If the division does not adopt these changes, I fear we'll see them tear out at the first flood event. Great to see the division address the needs of the handicapped, whatever design they go with!

On the lower end of the Gorge, new parking will be built to accommodate additional cars and I think 2 more trees will need to be removed (total of 5 as I counted for the entire project). TU volunteers will replant several areas between Trestle parking lot and the lower gate where cars pull in now. We'll see if it is feasible to plant/replace some of the native hemlocks, especially in light of those that have been lost to the Woolly Adelgids. We'd need to make certain the state can get us the beetles that feed on the woolies before we waste time and money on hemlocks. If not hemlocks, then native spruce and/or white pines.

Here is the one area that all of us who know and understand the flooding issues in the Gorge still have major concerns with:

The current plans call for adding asphalt over a several hundred yard stretch beginning at the Trestle parking area and extending upstream past that tight spot where a large rock slab comes down to the current road. We feel asphalt will fail during the first high water event and chunks will fall into the river. Asphalt also emits oils over time and is just not the best choice (at least I don't believe it is). Other engineered products were discussed and I think most agreed that steel-reinforced "porous" concrete could be used instead. At least if the concrete was undermined in a flood event, the division could get back in and shore it up to a large extent. We could also use the porous type that will help minimize additional impervious surfaces.

The next area of concern is the gabions called for along the bank under the Trestle itself. They are clearly under-engineered and would be a mess with the first flood. We made several suggestions as to alternatives.

So that's about the current state of events/design with the gorge road. I hope others who stuck around to review plans and comment will add/correct my post. This has been a long time coming, I hope the division will get it right as I know they certainly want to! With some modifications, we think they can.

 

[bkill]

Thanks for the update Brian..

 

[ajfromnj]

The plan sounds like a disaster to me. It seems like there are some major areas of concern. How many times did the state people say that they will lose license sales if the don't put ramps in, pave roads and destroy that stretch of river while they are at it? It just seems to me that its time to shut it down from both ends.

 

[bkill]

It just seems to me that its time to shut it down from both ends.

That should be the plan..Let the parking limit the visitors like the state parks...

The only thing missing from the plan is a cashiers booth at the front gate...

 

[AKSkim]

It just seems to me that its time to shut it down from both ends.

Did you think that one all by your lonesome or did someone help you write it?

Great idea.. shut it down.. good thinking Puddin' Head.

I bet your next "brain storm" was to ban fishing all together.

Maybe the next person who will post on the changes will have something more constructive to add.

 

[Jheaney]

i spoke about this pending dastard a year ago," oh that not going to happen"," they told me oh there not going to do that" , i was told , "well there doing it "... again , here is my suggestion , you want additional parking , there is a parking lot along the bike trail off Hoffman's crossing road, the state owns the property next to the trail , expand the parking lot along the bike trail , and put a stairway from the trail down to the roadway, close the parking lot or limit the parking space, keep it gravel , and no paving , as far making the entrance from the top as , it is the worst plan possible , the better roadway is from the bottom , it also provides , better access for those that have limited ability to get around , it also affords the ability to spread parking out , the fact they want to add pavement to the roadway is going to cause an increase in water temp, and dump hot water into the river , get ride of the pavement all together , look , i know the state wants to make the gorge more user friendly ,but if we don't stand up to this , they are going to destroy it. there should be more discussion as to the construction , and a public forum as to the impact and the states plans for this constructions , again there people making decision that don't fish the place , or have seen the river at 3500cfs , the handicap access needs more discussion , i am for it , but we need to look where the placement is going to be and the materials and design . i was at the meeting today , but do to other commitments i had to leave , had i know that this was going to be discus , i would stayed around.. there needs to be a public fourm for this construction...
when do they plan to start this construction....??????

 

[The Royal Coachman]

It seems to me the better way to access the gorge would be from the down stream side. That top piece of road is usually what gives the state a problem when we have a major flood event. The trestle area has good parking but I think you could fit many cars along the bottom of the road. So far as closing the road and making it walk in only access, that's a nonstarter.

 

[ajfromnj]

AK,

You really should make better use of your time.

Aaron Jasper

 

[Rusty Spinner]

The person to talk to if you want to voice your concerns is Bob Olsen from F&W's Land Management division. He works out of their Whittingham WMA office.

I hear some of your concerns. But keeping the road gravel is not making any change at all and we all agree that the current road isn't cutting it. Close it all together? I'd be all for that, but there is too much pressure on the division to keep at least some of it open, especially if handicapped access is to be built into the plan.

As for keeping the lower road open, it is the better road over the upper road, but that keeps 2/3 of the road open versus only 1/3 of the road.

The state told us they considered adding parking across from the houses at Hoffman's on the newly acquired state land, but the local homeowners would object and building access from the parking area down to the river would be costly and dangerous due to steep slopes.

The state also reached out to those same homeowners to see if they could get Green Acres involved to purchase and bulldoze some of those homes to add parking and open water but so far no takers.

As for the asphalt/concrete or whatever they wind up with heating up the river, we are only talking about a very small stretch and it would be very much under the cover of trees so it won't have a measurable effect on water temps. My bigger concern is asphalt not standing up to floods and breaking off in chunks and winding up in the river. That and it is an oil based product which could be substituted as I mentioned on my initial post.

Make your concerns known and be heard - yelling and screaming on a FF forum won't have any impact on the process. And be prepared to make some concessions and compromises. That's my two cents.

Is the plan perfect? No, how could it be when you have some saying "close it all" while others say "keep it all open". Anglers make up less than 1/2 of the user group, another factor to consider. Add the lack of parking and the local neighbors having to deal with cars parked in front of their homes at times and the only solution is some sort of compromise - so let the state know what you think. Construction could begin soon - funds and permits are in place but the division wants some changes that all have agreed to, and those at yesterday's impromptu meeting voiced additional concerns we've asked to be addressed before a shovel hits the ground.

 

[frankjay02]

Rusty Spinner wrote>>>>>>>>>The road will be closed from the bottom up to the RR Trestle parking lot. There will be a gate on the lower end and one immediately downstream of the Trestle parking lot which will effectively close 2/3 of the road to car traffic. Emergency vehicles and stocking trucks will have access via a key.>>>>>>>>>>

Brian, this bottom part you mention. Is that the part that starts by the bridge when you come down the road from the deli...I think it is Kruger Road (Cokesbury from Rte. 78)...Does it end where it gets narrow after the private homes or will that gate you mention be a bit upstream, after that first small parking area.
BTW our TIC trout are doing well.
Frank

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Rusty Spinner wrote>>>>>>>>>The road will be closed from the bottom up to the RR Trestle parking lot. There will be a gate on the lower end and one immediately downstream of the Trestle parking lot which will effectively close 2/3 of the road to car traffic. Emergency vehicles and stocking trucks will have access via a key.>>>>>>>>>>

Brian, this bottom part you mention. Is that the part that starts by the bridge when you come down the road from the deli...I think it is Kruger Road (Cokesbury from Rte. 78)...Does it end where it gets narrow after the private homes or will that gate you mention be a bit upstream, after that first small parking area.
BTW our TIC trout are doing well.
Frank

Frank - great to hear about your brookies. Hope your students are learning a lot about them through TIC!

I have to admit that while reviewing the plans on Sat. I did not carefully note where the lower most gate would be. I do recall seeing it up past the lower homes, with some additional parking to be built (think 2 trees needed to be removed). It might have been designed to hold 14 cars, but don't hold me to that. I just didn't look very closely because nobody had any issue with that area of the Gorge when we went over the plans and I was getting to look at them late because of a side meeting with a reporter. They started reviewing the plans from bottom up, so I walked in just as they were moving upstream to the next page of plans. If I can learn more, I'll post that here. Seems I recall all parking to be above the 100 year flood plain and only compacted gravel was to be used - no paving of any kind.

 

[frankjay02]

The reason I asked Brian is that I plan on getting out tomorrow and don't want to waste the trip if I can't park anywhere so I can fish.
thanks
Frank

 

[Rusty Spinner]

The reason I asked Brian is that I plan on getting out tomorrow and don't want to waste the trip if I can't park anywhere so I can fish.
thanks
Frank

None of this work has even begun. You won't have any issues tomorrow. Aren't you supposed to be in "in-service" for teachers tomorrow??? Don't worry, your secret is safe with us!

 

[Agust]

The gate on the lower are would be just upstream of the current "sign" and the proposed lower area parking lot.

The road from there to the Monument Bridge just below Trestle would be closed.

The parking area around the trestle would not be paved. The only paved areas will be the first 2-300 feet at the very northern end of the road. This is tied to the existing road and well above potential flooding, and has several sections that "wash out" the current road.

There is also a stretch of about 300 feet half way to the trestle that everyone is concerned with. It is relatively flat and gets over washed in high water currently. The contractor is proposing macadam, but F&G and everyone at the meeting is concerned about that. We discussed "eco-pavers", porous concrete and just plain reinforced concrete as alternatives.

This stretch is one of the main contributors to silt in the river, so stabilizing it has to be a priority. In this case the dirt road is more harmful than pavement, but F&W wants to make sure that the least intrusive method is used. Which is why they brought the plans and asked for input.

As to adding a toll booth at the upper and lower end, I would not mind so long as anyone with a hunting or fishing license was exempt from the toll and all proceeds were funneled into F&W. But to my knowledge that is not part of any of the plans I saw.

To all you amateur engineers with little or no formal training (I am also in this group), rest assured that NJTU's current chairman (Rick Axt) has decades of experience as an actual engineer and knows how to read the plans and he is providing input and the state is listening. The plans we saw were a proposal, and they are much less intrusive than earlier ones, but they are by no means final which is why we had a chance to comment on them and propose changes.

To those forecasting the "End of the world as we know it", I disagree.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Thanks Agust! As a recap, the state's outside engineer feels that at total of 400 feet of current road (which is the most problematic two stretches and supplies the majority of sediment into the river currently - 100 feet on the upper most section of the Gorge and 300 feet just upstream of the trestle) need to be paved with some sort of hard surface as the only means to control the runoff. That's 400 feet of 2.5 miles. And as Agust mentioned, neither the division of F&W or NJTU wants to see 300 of those 400 feet paved in asphalt.

I know full well how the words "pavement" and "asphalt" are seen as taboo by concerned conservationists and I agree. But when you place this into perspective, I feel strongly that the state is acting in good faith and that the end result will be agreeable to almost everyone.

Personally, I had far more reservations over what I know from watching this and other rivers and what the SBR would do to the under-engineered bank stabilizers in two sections that call for those improvements than any of the "paving" issues. I also saw what Rick Axt wrote down on the plans themselves as potential solutions to those areas after we agreed on them. I think if the state forces the changes we agree upon and think are necessary, the river will benefit and not the other way as some have suggested.

 

[Kronk]

Correct me if I am wrong wasn t $150,000 appropriated to close both ends and have a parking lot at both ends to walk in.Current plan does not appear to cost that amount of money.Handicapped spots are fine but that road if left open is hard enough for a non handicapped person to travel.
KRONK

 

[Jheaney]

Tu is the biggest joke !!!!!!! the mere fact that this issue was not brought up for public discussion , why is when an issue such as this is only limit to the privileged few from Tu and not everyone to comment ! Mike ,it time to start filming these meeting held by the state , maybe more people need to know that it all about the money !!!! and not the environment , and the river .

 

[onemorecast]

Tu is the biggest joke !!!!!!! the mere fact that this issue was not brought up for public discussion , why is when an issue such as this is only limit to the privileged few from Tu and not everyone to comment ! Mike ,it time to start filming these meeting held by the state , maybe more people need to know that it all about the money !!!! and not the environment , and the river .

If you had been able to stay until the end, you would have had your opportunity. Before the meeting broke up, Lisa got up to announce that they were seeking input on the gorge road from anyone interested, not just TU. In fact, when she asked those interested to stay behind to look at the plans, I went to look for you because I knew you would want to have a say.

 

[Agust]

Thanks for the kind words.

No one knew the plans would be there, Lisa announced it as the meeting was breaking up and a few folks stayed. Some were TU, some where not but of course that is all my fault. Thankfully I seldom give a crap what others think and usually do what I think is best.

Then again that makes me just another TU Rat Bastard. I really need to get that on a t-shirt.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

To add to Agust's post, there were more non-TU folks reviewing the plan than TU folks. So if you think this is a bad idea, ask yourself why YOU weren't there!

Lisa Barno was very careful to ask for everyone's input. We (TU) had no idea this would be asked for or that any of us would be reviewing the plans.

And if some of you think that 400 feet of hard surface on a 2 1/2 mile road will mean the end of trout fishing in the Gorge, you're kidding yourself. The current road is running off into the river, adding sediment which reduces aquatic life. That is ruining fishing in the Gorge. Please set your emotions aside of one nano second and read the facts. No knee-jerk reactions, just read the facts before you decide the state or TU or anyone else has destroyed the Gorge.

As for those of us in TU - we're used to hearing some of this crap. When we pushed for the TCA in the Gorge we were excoriated (look it up) for our efforts. Many out there screamed that we had sold out and destroyed the fishing in the Gorge. How's that been working out so far?

My last comment to those who say "TU is a joke". Ask yourself this - did TU make these plans? No. Did TU have input in these plans? Yes. Did the public/non-TU have the exact same input in these plans? Yes again. So the only question that remains is where were you if you hate this project? Have you contacted the division yet to voice your concerns? Nothing is set in stone/ashpalt or concrete. The work has not begun. Contact the division - it will take less time than saying TU sucks...

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Here's some additional food for thought for those of you furious with the state's current plans:

If the state (Green Acres) is successful in obtaining one of the homes below Hoffman's Crossing, that home will be bulldozed, parking will be added there, and the entire road could then be considered for full closure. So far no takers from the local homeowners but that could change at any time.

Second, the division on Saturday was very clear that if any part of their plan once they execute it does not work, they will remove the damaged area and make necessary changes. Believe it or not, the state division of F&W feels as strongly about protecting our natural resources as all of us do!

Lastly, this project is and always has been about road stabilization and not road closure. The reason is that far more people have complained to the state that the road be kept open than having it closed. And a lot of those people are trout fishermen. There was at least one older gentleman there on Saturday who was angry that any part of the road will be closed because he won't be able to drive to the fish. With the lack of parking to accommodate the # of cars currently using the Gorge, the state decided that they would leave open 1/3 for now and close down 2/3. That will make for a better outdoor experience than having that Harley or truck motor past you while fishing, kicking up dust the whole way - at least on the lower 2/3. This plan will reduce the current runoff on the lower 2/3 of the road that flows into the river now, bringing in foreign materials like the gravel and crushed stone that the state has used for years on the road, and it will greatly lessen the runoff on the upper 1/3 of the road as well.

You all know who to contact at the state. I suggest rather than looking to blame the state, or TU or Osama Bin Laden, that you get involved in the process. Or at the very least understand it. I'm getting off my soapbox now so Agust and I can design those rat bastard t-shirts or maybe so I can destroy another river by removing dams, educating the public, planting riparian buffers, restoring damaged river stretches, all with TU's volunteer efforts:devious:. What an aweful organization - someone please stop us!:nopity:

 

[Hllywd76]

Rusty,

There's no need to defend TU when someone posts like that. What they need to do is get involved.

If they aren't involved then they have nothing to say.

Hllywd

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Sorry you will also have to find someone else to fix the TIC chillers. I don't deal with people like him.

Hey maybe that's Mr 1 n in hiding......

Hllywd

For those of you out there scratching your heads, NEFF's own Hollywd has been gracious enough to repair lots of dead or dying chillers used in our Trout In the Classroom (TIC) program which has enabled many schools to remain in the program so kids from all walks of life and all over our state (80+ schools) can learn about the importance of coldwater conservation while raising brook trout from eggs and releasing their fish in the spring into a local trout stream. Just another way TU sucks

And a big thank you for the volunteer efforts of guys like Hllywd and others here who continue to help with the TU mission and who truly make a difference for the trout waters we all love! :thankyou:

 

[ocfly]

Very nice of you to that Hollywood :applaudit

 

[brough]

I bet there are a lot of kids that appreciate your help Hollywood. Right On!

 

[Hllywd76]

hey I can't be an Ahole all the time... Thanks guys. I elect Jamiep to handle the NY area...

Hllywd

 

[jamiep]

As long as i can bill for refrigerant im good lol

 

[Hllywd76]

As long as i can bill for refrigerant im good lol

Hermetic units. no charge ports at all. simple electrical units. shaded pole fan motor, comp. with cap. enclosed control..

 

[jamiep]

Thats cool how old are they what type of refrig r12

 

[AKSkim]

Holy... Moly... Macaroni... this is one of the few TU bashing posts I missed out on and boy after reading the replys I am glad I did.

See, what I was about to say was....... ahhhh... on second thought.

Hey, I wonder if that plan is available to be reviewed on line? If not can the powers to be (and I am not talking about TU) post it on line for the rest of us to see what the Hub-Bub is all about? I may have an opinion to add to the discussion, but like all, I would like to be given that oportunity to do so.

This is what all the Hub-Bub is all about.

The road in the Gorge almost 10 years ago.

June 28, 2006

Not normal.

Just so it is clear what we all are
talking about, it's the RIVER and
keeping it safe, and flowing freely.

We may not all agree on the methods
or the road to it, but it is clear we all care.

Now we just have to ban together.

Choose me as your Souvereign KING and I shall deliver the water,
WITH the road up where it belongs!

AK Skim
NEFF Souvereign King of KLG and the Hitherlands.