Centerpinning

[dcabarle]

About 6 years ago while fishing the Beaverkill, I saw this guy using a centerpin setup. At the time being the first time I ever saw one of these rigs, I couldn't figure it out. I sat on the side of the road in my car watching him throw this thing out on what looked to be a flyrod with mono and a huge reel that he kept stroking. The setup also had this big stupid looking bobber. I only assumed that this was a cross between fly fishing and bait fishing? Perhaps he was using nymphs under that bobber? Who am I to judge him? I had no idea what he was doing.

A few months ago, I heard about the centerpinners coming to the Delaware river then not too long ago, someone on this site mentioned them. Now I received a PM from someone who fish's the Delaware telling me a few things about the technique.

I decided to do a little research myself and see that people are catching 70 fish a day on these rigs using live bait, plastic bait, and yes, even nymphs/wets. This is I guess, bobber fishing at its best. Of course this particular fishing technique is for people who are impatient and don't like to work for things. Simple minded people? At least this is what I gather from what I've read. One dope mentions that he outfished the fly fishermen 20:1. This person obviously has no clue that the fly fisherman isn't looking to catch 20 easy fish. The fly fisherman is obviously out for a challenge, otherwise he would use a centerpin!

This leads me to another topic regarding the centerpin techniques... I read a post by someone with the name, "Ditchrat" who cross posted his report on numerous sites along with photo's. The photo's he posted are no different than the ones you and I might post here. They're done in good taste. This person is obviously an experienced angler. I see no lips ripped off of fish or anything else wrong with any of the fish. My problem is with C&R Bait anglers who don't know how to fish. There is a difference between fly fisherman who don't know how to fish and bait anglers who don't know how to fish.

The differences are that new fly anglers won't catch many fish. Bait guys will always catch more fish. Trout swallow bait. This means some dope will be ripping a .05 cent hook out of a trouts stomache, most likely killing it. Trout don't typically swallow flies because they spit them out immediately.

Anyhow, in a post called, "Centerpinning the West Branch Delaware River" there are 20 replies from a bunch of people who all sound like they're having fun with this technique. My question is.... Does centerpinning entail ripping the guts out of a trout before you release it?

I would say Centerpinning isn't for me. Looks like there's absolutely no challenge. Centerpinners use this technique to brag about catching 70+ fish a day. Am I on the right page here?

 

[NJFred]

I strongly suspect that the 70 fish days are only possible using bait. And if so they better be sure they are in the regs. There are plenty of people like me who would get on a cell phone in and call in enforcement in a flash.

In any case if they are using bait and within the regs I'm sure they practice CR&D.

BTW...don't be too critical about bobber fishing. Many fly fisherman do fish with bobbers. Those float indicators serve the same purpose.

 

[flyman23]

I"ve had a few days on stocked NJ streams where I caught 20-25 fish and got a little bored with what I was using. The few times thats happened I start experimenting with different flies. If I were able to catch 50-70 West Branch trout a day I would have to try some other method, or just quit. It wouldn't be fun anymore. I also have to wonder that no matter how well an angler released a fish, how many fish would die when catching 70 fish a day.

 

[JeffK]

C-pinning is a sophisticated form of bait fishing, and sophisticated forms of bait fishing were always deadly.

Here is my view of history. As a kid there were all sorts of bait pros: guys who could dead drift single salmon eggs with fly tackle, salt minnow riggers, etc. These guys were the "fish heads" of the day and caught enormous numbers of trout, especially the trophies. Today it seems that almost all serious fishermen head towards fly tackle and I don't see all that many really expert bait fishermen anymore. Bait fishing seems to be the domain of the tyro (and some Asian and East European immigrants who have absolutely deadly bait techniques developed to catch a meal in heavily pressured waters).

That seems to be changing with C-pinning, which is basically a sophisticated style of bobber fishing (the European match fishermen have even refined the techniques more). C-pinning became popular for steelhead fishing and it is only natural that it spread to the bigger trout streams since there seem to be a large number of c-pinners from Binghampton and Scranton that fish the Salmon and the Delaware regularly. A few years ago I saw three guys C-pinning below Hale's Eddy bridge. I watched until they caught 50 trout among themselves, and it didn't take too long. I will finally say that even bait fishermen have to learn their craft to do well- but when they learn it well they can catch awesome numbers of fish. There is always a challenge to fishing bait well.

 

[Corndog]

I have a buddy who used to fly fish the Salmon River and we usually caught about the same amount of salmon and steelhead. Last year he switched to a centerpin and ever since he blows me away in numbers. It's not a numbers game to me so it doesn't bother me. But, I was shocked at how effective centerpinning is. Yes, he gut hooks alot of his fish, but he cuts the line and leaves the hook in the fish. From what I've heard, fish usually survive when you leave the hook in it.

The only problem I have with the centerpin guys is that they will let their float drift in front of you or stop and retrieve it when it's just upstream from you. I'm sure you dry fly guys know what rising trout do when a 6 inch bobber is dragged past them.

I myself, have never gut hooked a trout on a fly.

 

[Green Highlander]

Let's face it, fly fishermen come in all shapes and sizes. Some prefer the numbers game while others prefer a challenge. Fly fishermen who enjoy the numbers will be found at the Connetquot, private fishing clubs, etc. and will experiment with bead rigs (not considered fly fishing by most) and c-pinning. Fly fishermen who enjoy the challenge are pursueing atlantic salmon, permit, "main stem" trout (notice I didn't say WB), etc. and will not use gimmicks or "cheat" to achieve their objective. I'm not a psychiatrist/psychologist but I notice that most fly fishermen who have excelled and progressed in the sport, prefer a challenge and are less tolerant than the numbers guy...why is that and why are they so adamant about imposing that philosophy on others? Less tolerant meaning they want the water to themselves and free of anyone not using dry flies with a 14' leader and 7x tippet.

GH

 

[NJFred]

Let be be very clear. I have a problem with Centerpinning with the use of bait.

I, as many, grew up bait fishing. Believe me... I got really, really good at it. I have no problems with any kind of fishing except a technique that has a significant mortality rate on hooked trout. The mortality rate whether hooks are cut off or not on bait hooked fish is far higher than with flys or artificial lures. Read Page 19 of this link http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/fish/pubs/trout.pdf

So... if a fly fisherman who practices good catch and release techniques, catches 20 fish, and has a mortality rate of about 10% that's two dead fish.

If a bait pinner catches 50 fish and has a mortality rate of 30% (I think it's higher), that's 15 dead fish. Almost an order of magnitude higher that the fly guy.

I have not problem in stocked streams but... I do have a big problem with this in Wild Trout Streams like the Delaware. In my mind bait fishing should be banned from the dams to Callicoon.

 

[theartoflee]

Last time I fished the WB/MS there was a pinner fishing. He was telling me about just how many fish he caught pinning. In fact he told me that he caught a 27inch rainbow right at the boat ramp last week. Before I was able to put together my rod he had a really nice bow on. I went upstream from him because whenever I see pinners I never want to fish a run after them. Later on when I saw the guy down stream he was 7 for 10 in roughly an hours time. That is right seven fish before the trico spinners even fell. Putting a cricket under a float just doesnt get my rocks off like fishing tricos so I did not feel bad.

I dont understand why bait fisherman let alone bait fisherman for trout dont all use circle hooks. I know some people think they lose fish when using circle hooks but what is there to moan about when they are catching so many fish? I dont really see at this point center pining to be a big issue in the Catskills. Most of them are just working off there ring rust for Pulaskis mud sharks.

I am sure you will hear me piss and moan about pinners later on in the season after the steel are in the river good. Nothing is more frustrating then having a pool all to yourself in December swinging flys to have some pinners high jack it and drift egg sacks through the entire pool and pull out six fish to the one you lost. Funny thing is though I dont think I have met many if any center pinners that dont have a fly rod.

 

[brachycentrus]

From the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commision Website:


Question:
I fish almost exclusively catch and release. I try to be very careful and not injure any fish that I catch, but once in a while a fish will take a hook very deep. I've always been told that the best thing to do is to clip the line as far down as possible and that eventually the hook will rust out without harming the fish. I wonder though if that really is the right thing to do. Can a fish actually live if it has a hook swallowed deeply?

Answer:
A much higher percentage of fish that are hooked deeply survive when the hook is left in and the line cut compared to those where a deep hook is removed. In the few scientific studies where the fate of hooks that were left in fish released by anglers were tracked, it has been learned that hooks were eventually shed by the fish or surrounded by new tissue. One study found that rainbow trout shed hooks in about 40 days. The study of 200 hundred trout released without removal of hooks 66 percent survived, of the 200 where the hook was removed 11.5 percent survived.
In a 1989 study of smallmouth bass, study mortality ranged between 32.5 and 47.3 percent (depending upon hook size) for hooks that were immediately removed, whereas mortality for hooks that were not removed was 4.2 percent. In the case of juvenile smallmouth bass, the study found that upon dissection, some hooks were lodged in internal organs but that new tissue surrounded the hooks. The study further noted that dissected hooks exhibited minimal corrosion after 20 days.

You are wise to cut the line and leave the hook in, the fish will likely survive to be caught another day.


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[Joe D]

Sportsmen are more concerned with the process rather than the product. For a sportsman, it's not how many, but simply "how".

Some fishing techniques are about as ethical as baiting deer and then shooting them at 400 yards. More effective than the still hunter or stalker, yes but ethical? I think hardly.

Just because something is more effective doesn't necessarily make it better or right. For too many of these people the key word seems to be more. More effective, more fish. Some people just measure things by material quantity. It's a shame because they are truly missing the gift that fishing can give, and in its place are ruining the experience for others with their "more" at any cost mind set.

 

[NJFred]

Brachy... I think I recall a few studies which indicated much higher mortality rates for deeply hooked fish even if the line is cut. If I get a chance I will try and find and post them.

 

[JeffK]

I'm at the point where I don't need to catch tons of fish, but I can't criticize others because I have had my fish hog days. I hate to go fishless - I am going fishing not taking a walk. However, working for a few fish seems better to me and I get bored once I have the pattern down and could catch a lot. Cracking the code interests me. Once I do that I can go home happy. However, I don't think I can criticize other legal fishermen.

 

[brachycentrus]

I'm at the point where I don't need to catch tons of fish, but I can't criticize others because I have had my fish hog days. I hate to go fishless - I am going fishing not taking a walk. However, working for a few fish seems better to me and I get bored once I have the pattern down and could catch a lot. Cracking the code interests me. Once I do that I can go home happy. However, I don't think I can criticize other legal fishermen.

Read this and tell me if you still feel the same.

Centerpinning the West Branch Delaware River

West branch 8/15

 

[CR]

The real issue here is not the technique itself, but the combination of the technique and catch and release. If someone were pinning with the intention of keeping and eating their catch, then it is as equally a legitimate way to fish as fly fishing, ice fishing or any other kind. But if the angler's intention is purely catch and release, then there is no quesetion that it is not the ethical choice because of the high mortality rate.

 

[NJFred]

CR... completely agree with you. As I stated I could care less about the technique, it's the end result on a rare and precious resource which is the concern. Centerpinning with bait has a high catch rate and combines this with a high mortality rate. It is very distructive.

I think PA and NY should ban bait fishing all together from the upper Delaware watershed.

 

[NJFred]

For those of you who have never seen someone centerpinning, here is a link to a couple of videos.

Float Fishing / Centerpin casting videos - flyandfloatfishing.com

 

[eelweir]

Legions of guys catching 70 trout a day on a river where two or three fish is the norm doesn't bode well for a sustainable fishery. It also sounds like most West Branch trout will soon have hook scars in them -- if they are lucky. Others may wind up being released belly up. I fished a wild trout stream earlier this year that had some centerpinners fishing it (first time I saw any there). They had three beautiful wild browns on a stringer. They were only fishing flies, too. They told me that the fish took the flies too deep, so they had to keep them. I believe this was true, as I also saw them carefully relase a few fish. But I wonder if the abnormally long length of leader between the fly and bobber that centerpinners seem to use allows the fly to be taken deeper before a hook set -- more so than standard fly fishing with a nymph...

In short, this is bad.

 

[NJpatbee]

Fly Fishing with Antimycin

The rage in fly fishing has been the new bucket fly scoop method now in use throughout the Northeast and soon will be coming to stream near you. In this method, 2 fly fishermen work together to break all records in the number of trout caught in 10 minutes.

Starting at the top of a pool loaded with trout (preferably wild trout so it is more sporting) one of the fly fishermen takes two 5 gallon buckets to the top of the pool and ties a Hendrickson and a Royal Coachman to the handles of the buckets, and then fills them with the proper mixture of pure sping water and Antimycin. He then makes a small puncture in the bottom of each busket and places them next to the stream so the sporting mixture drips slowly into the water.

Meanwhile, the second fly fishermen, ties a variety of wet flies and nymphs (all with natural materials and silk thread) around the webbing of 2 log handled 30" diameter nets. By the time the first fly fisherman arrives at the bottom of the pool the action is starting! 1, 3, 5, 10 dead trout rising to the surface at a time. Using the fly nets, the happy anglers scoop as many of the wild trout into spackling buckets as fast as they can. The excitment and action is non stop for 5-10 minutes!

After the scoop is over, the count can begin and it is common that 40-70 trout can be taken in one scoop fly fishing session! And being good sportsmen and obeying the law, each of the fly fisherman picks 6 of the largest trout each to stay within the limit. They complete their conservation duty by spreading the remaining trout alongside the stream for the hungry foxes, coyotes, bears, and rats (the antimycin will hopefully be inactive by the time the creatures find it, but that's what makes it sporting!).

A fine end to another day of fly fishing the pharmaceutical way...join us next week for elctro-fly fishing under Catch & Release regulations!


Sorry folks, but I did some research and centerpinning may be legal, but it is not fly fishing in a sporting manner. Let's hope fish and wildlife officials recognize the difference.

 

[C&R]

I would ban this ASAP. Its bad for any river. It'll make it even harder for fishing novices (fly, spin, & bait) to learn how to catch fish with conventional tackle. Next thing you know, all the newbies to the sport are pinning because that's the only way they can catch a fish. Imaging how opening day in NJ would look after a few years!

 

[JeffK]

Brachy,

You make a good point. I'm just hoping those massive fish catchers are just the expert end. If more fishermen get like them the fishery will take a hit.

I do a lot of unorthodox trout fishing, including using European match fishing techniques, jigs (both micro and large), antique tackle, and crappie cane pole methods. Therefore, I am disinclined to call center pinning the end of the world as we know it, and in some ways it seems similar to long range nymphing as started out at Lees Ferry. That said, there is one thing that bugs me about some center pinners - they hog a whole pool and drift their stuff right into fish you are working. Just because they can work long distances they don't have the right to fish through where you are fishing. I hope this is just a few bad apples and gets settled through plain old socialization.

 

[NJFred]

Exactly. Centerpinning is all about achieving long drag free floats hence the use of mono and no fly line. in some respects, it's a like nymphing with a float indicator except without the fly line to create drag and a reel which spins freely, one can let out a lot of line and cover a tremendous amount of water with a good drift. Spey rods offer a similar advantage but not to the same extent due to their lenght.

Sure reminds one of the importance of a good presentation. Most I've seen doing it exclusively fish wets or jigs or bait. Has anyone seen someone fish a dry with this approach? I suppose it's possible.

As a kid I would catch live grasshoppers... put them on a hook at the end of a spinning set up (helps to have those long rods those boys use) and some how get the hopper out to the middle of the stream and feed the line downstream to brush piles. I would catch minnows and do the same thing. Sure was deadly!

In small streams I will sometimes dead drift nymphs or wets straight downstream through a couple of small polls maintain just enough tension and catch fish. A similar approach to pinning.

I guess I don't really have much of a problem with this approach so long as centerpinners don't use bait and don't float their rigs into my water.

 

[brachycentrus]

It is a totally inapropriate technique for the wild trout of the UD.
Is it legal? Probably.
Is it ethical? Absolutely not on these waters.
Their is usually some self policing based on personal beliefs and local customs. An example is not floating the Beaverkill.
Whacking 250 fish over 2 days then bragging about it all over the internet shows absolute disrespect for the fishery and the fishing community that love these waters.

 

[NJFred]

Well centerpinnings efficacy does raise some interesting eithical questions.

If a good fly fisherman fishes 30 days over a year and catches 5 fish a day on average he catches 150 fish in a year.

If a centerpinner, fishing with flys only, fishes only 2 days across a year and catches 40 fish a day that's 80 fish in a year.

Who does more damage to the fish? Which one is more unethical?

Maybe the right answer is when a fisherman catches 5- 10 fish in a day they ought to call it quits?

I'm not passing any judgement here and frankly I'm not quite sure what the right answer is from the standpoint of ethics.

What do you guys think?

 

[flyman23]

Most centerpinners I see posting on some sites fish much more then 2 days a year. If they really can catch 70 fish a day, thats a lot of damage. I don't care if they are using flys with barbless hooks and releasing everything, some of those fish aren't going to make it.

 

[Corndog]

Last winter I landed a large brookie on the mainstem while walleye fishing. As I was getting ready to release it I saw a piece of mono coming out his a$$. So, I gently pulled it out. On the end was what looked to be a size 6 Gamakatsu hook still as shiny and sharp as ever. I couldn't believe it. I would have thought a hook that sharp would have punctured his intestines.

I hate to say it guys, but we're going to have to learn to live with the pinners whether we want to or not. To most fishermen (not fly fishermen of course) and state fish and game depts his would not be considered unethical. Nothing in any reg book would point to pinning as illegal. To most it's just another form of fishing.

The guys that try to catch and keep their limits everytime they go fishing don't stop once they've reached their limit. They keep fishing, ripping the hooks out, and baiting up for more. On the BFB at the end of opening day, almost every pool has dead fish on the bottom and lots of them.

Most of us I'd bet, learned to fish on a pond where we yanked bluegill after bluegill out of the water on gardenworms. Most of which died cause noone really cared. I remember farmers saying to me "Just throw them on the bank, there's to many anyway." How many fishermen never grow past this style of fishing?

You've seen it. Just watch fishermen on opening day of trout season on any stocked water. Their maniacs and don't give a damn about anything. Does anybody do anything about them...Nope!

Sorry for the rant, it's late, I should just go to bed.

 

[stumpy]

Wow! 70 fish in one day! that' almost as good as using a throw net, or half a stick of dynamite, or even 40,000 volts of electricity! What third world country are they feeding with those fish?
I've always used the guideline of changing patterns after two fish. There's no scoreboard on a river, and if I ever see one, I'll quit.

 

[caster]

There have always been trout killers on the UD.
<O</O
There was once a guide on the mainstem that specialized in fishing rapalas at night, he would brag about the 2’ browns his clients got to kill and but on some wall. There is a current guide that has no problem letting spin men take their limit of trout, and his to after all they are paying customers. There are also fly-guides and fisherman that routinely fish in 70 degree and above water, after all the seasons short, gotta make the green while we can.
<O</O
Just as fly guys have “discovered” this river, spin men will follow. Unfortunately the impact on the resource is greater and the resource cannot recover from it.
<O</O
Caster

 

[Doubletaper]

What we need is for this type of fishing to expand to the henrys fork, the madison, firehole,bighorn. I like a challange when I fish, this is not fishing, it is catching. boring,boring,boring. If this type of fishing was used on any of the mentioned rivers, Trout Unlimited would be all over it. We need their help to stop the slaughter.

 

[NJpatbee]

While researching centerpinning I found some enthusiastic posts about success while centerpinning the Brodhead Creek in PA and the Musconetcong in NJ, so it is here even in the smaller rivers.

 

[iflifish]

It's everywhere. What strikes me as very odd is how recent it became popular and how fast its use spread. Centerpinning is one of the oldest forms of angling, yet up until very recently it was virtually unheard of to see a centerpin in use on a trout stream. I have been fishing the Salmon River since the mid 80's and up until about 5 or 6 years ago it was a rare occasion to see a centerpin in use even there. Used to be mostly Canadians at first who had been using them on their steelhead & salmon waters. What caused such a recent explosion in the popularity of this technique? :devious: