Centerpinning

[Joe D]

What caused such a recent explosion in the popularity of this technique? :devious:

Simply, greed.

 

[Trav2xl]

It's everywhere. What caused such a recent explosion in the popularity of this technique? :devious:

Quite simply....the internet. Check out the salmoncrazy board. It's discussed non-stop.

A fine example of the impact of blabbing on the net.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Is it ethical? Absolutely not on these waters.
Their is usually some self policing based on personal beliefs and local customs. An example is not floating the Beaverkill.

Can someone explain why floating the Beaverkill is one of these self policing local customs? I mean, why is it not done or why would it be inappropriate?

 

[Joe D]

Can someone explain why floating the Beaverkill is one of these self policing local customs? I mean, why is it not done or why would it be inappropriate?

John,

It is done. I have seen it done with pontoons, kayaks, canoes and drift boats. I think the reason it is not done too often is due to the lack of boat access areas and for much of the season the water levels are too low.

Joe

 

[AKSkim]

It is done. I have seen it done with pontoons, kayaks, canoes and drift boats. I think the reason it is not done too often is due to the lack of boat access areas and for much of the season the water levels are too low. Joe

What about a LCAC hovercraft?

Us 187 lb Big Boys need some extra lift.

 

[Future Fanatic]

John,

It is done. I have seen it done with pontoons, kayaks, canoes and drift boats. I think the reason it is not done too often is due to the lack of boat access areas and for much of the season the water levels are too low.

Joe

Thanks for answering.
I've seen it done on the BK myself.
But I know that MOST fishermen consider it a "sin".
I'm wondering why that is so. You know, what specifically makes the use of "water craft" (of any sort) inappropriate on some rivers.

 

[AKSkim]

what specifically makes the use of "water craft" (of any sort) inappropriate on some rivers.

I can speak from actual experience.. an LCAC is very loud and vibrates enough to rattle the fillings in your teeth. Stealth isn't in the operations manual. However, with every draw back there is a positive, you can invite the entire NEFF crew to join you onboard for a day of casting and parting with plenty of room to spare, unless your like me and weight in at 187. WhooWa... Babys and flees welcome..........

 

[NJFred]

Beaverkill.... most consider it too small and too crowded to float. It is. Most respect what most consider.

 

[tompg]

It's everywhere. What strikes me as very odd is how recent it became popular and how fast its use spread. Centerpinning is one of the oldest forms of angling, yet up until very recently it was virtually unheard of to see a centerpin in use on a trout stream. I have been fishing the Salmon River since the mid 80's and up until about 5 or 6 years ago it was a rare occasion to see a centerpin in use even there. Used to be mostly Canadians at first who had been using them on their steelhead & salmon waters. What caused such a recent explosion in the popularity of this technique? :devious:

Damn Canadians. I knew they were behind this!!

 

[dcabarle]

Thanks for answering.
I've seen it done on the BK myself.
But I know that MOST fishermen consider it a "sin".
I'm wondering why that is so. You know, what specifically makes the use of "water craft" (of any sort) inappropriate on some rivers.

I suppose it's like sitting at the dinner table... It's an unwritten rule that you should not chew like a horse. Sure you can do it but you might get some strange looks and someone might even let you know they disapprove.

Your problem is that you're too patient with people. Nothing out of the ordinary bothers you. You're just a happy go lucky kinda guy. You'll probably never get an ulser worrying about unimportant things. You're probably very rarely stressed about things other than picking up Llama eggs when you can find them!

 

[AKSkim]

Your problem is that you're too patient with people. Nothing out of the ordinary bothers you. You're just a happy go lucky kinda guy. You'll probably never get an ulser worrying about unimportant things. You're probably very rarely stressed about things other than picking up Llama eggs when you can find them!

Let us all sing the NEFF theme song for this thread....

Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

Someone’s laughing, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone’s laughing, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone’s laughing, Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

Someone’s crying, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone’s crying, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone’s crying, Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

Someone’s praying, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone’s praying, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone’s praying, Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

Someone’s singing, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone’s singing, Lord, kum ba yah!
Someone’s singing, Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

 

[NJFred]

Or better yet...

“It's 106 miles to Hancock. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses!....................HIT IT!!!”

 

[Future Fanatic]

Your problem is that you're too patient with people. Nothing out of the ordinary bothers you. You're just a happy go lucky kinda guy. You'll probably never get an ulser worrying about unimportant things. You're probably very rarely stressed about things other than picking up Llama eggs when you can find them!

Let's put a hold on your assessment for a moment. I get extremely bent out of shape when I'm told to go out and collect the llama eggs.

But, on to the matter at hand.

I'm not very familiar with centerpinning I admit. It seems that centerpinning gives them long, drag free drifts and due to the length of the drifts, gets them into much more real estate and therefore more fish. But please don't use that as an argument against it or as a way to put down it's users. These comments that they don't care about the resource, they are greedy, they are inappropriate, so on and so forth...

Our rivers used to be waded by fishermen. And they caught X number of fish each day. One day someone got the bright idea of hopping into a boat. They had long drag free drifts, covered MUCH more real estate and therefore caught more fish.

Why no cries that boaters are greedy or inappropriate or don't care about the resource? Oh yeah, when they tried to regulate the boaters, well you know what happened.

 

[iflifish]

Well, I haven’t heard of any recent reports of boaters hooking hundreds of fish with live bait in a day’s fishing. Nor have I heard recently of boaters chumming with corn, or eggs, milking fish for their eggs, gutting wild rainbows right on the riverbank, and so on.

Poke around on other forums and you will hear this stuff over and over again. You will also hear about pinners running their floats into another fisherman’s water. And you will hear about them crowding in right next to other anglers who did not respond to their question about whether it was ok or not for them to do so.

But, let me be clear, it is not my intent to turn this into a flyfisherman or boater vs. centerpinner bash fest.

It is not the method itself, but rather the person holding the rod that leads to the problem. There are ethical flyfishermen and slob flyfishermen just as there are ethical and slob spincasters and centerpinners. But for some reason, it does seem that there are many more slob pinners than slob flyfishermen right now. Who knows, maybe it is because many pinners just like to make their presence known by posting more internet reports than many flyfishermen do. More likely though centerpinning generally seems to attract the type of person that needs more hookups and more fish, where most flyfishermen are looking to catch fish using a more self-limiting tactic. Someone recently made the analogy that centerpinning is to flyfishing as hunting over bait with a rifle is to bow hunting.

There was a topic regarding ethics on another (centerpinning oriented) forum. Some of the Delaware’s flow issues, pending development and power lines, etc. were mentioned in the hopes that some who are unaware of these issues would at least take an interest. Basically the silence was deafening…which just seems to me to reinforce the prevailing attitude that many, if not most centerpinners are all about more hookups and more fish, and to hell with everything else. When centerpin anglers, as a whole, start to behave differently I believe they might gain more respect from other anglers.

 

[flyandfloatfishing.com]

ifli,

i'm sorry to hear your last statement????:cold: You are way out of line to say "centerpinners as a whole".......

what about all of the fly fishermen lining fish, especially here in ohio for steelhead??? now, i'm a fly fisherman and been doing it for a long time. i converted to pining about 50% of the time on the water..... (depending where i am).

anyway, i think your comment is way out of line and i'm sorry you feel that way. there are good & bad in every "category" of fisherman.. high to low.

I know a lot of this starts because the fly vs bait, this is typical.. i know, i was on your side for a ong time. However, i opened my eyes and now float flies with my pin all the time.... i still dont use bait and I practice C&R.....

FFF

 

[eddavidson9]

i agree that generalities are misleading, but i think ifli did a pretty good job trying not to make them. its up to the person practicing to use the method in an ethical way.

it seems to me several factors combine to bring the ire of fly fishers to centerpinning. part of the argument is the relative ease of entry into the sport (say vs fly fishing, which takes a lot of time and dedication to master) for someone who is only concerned with hookups and not with fishing concientiously. a big part of learning how to fish, for most of us, involves fishing ethics, but by jumping into centerpinning, it seems some 'select minded' people can easily bypass any ethics. that doesnt mean that all centerpinners are bad people or all flyfishers are good, but it does seem to open the door more easily for those uninclined to think about their action to have a significant and severe effect on individual fish and the resource as a whole.

by what you say fff, you sound like a concientious float fisher, but you also seem to take offense to others bashing those in your sport that are not like-minded.

 

[McAwful]

FandF.com,

I do not know what goes on in Ohio but you should see the chuckle headed shennegans that go on in the Oswego area.

First off, just because they have what appears to be a fly rod in their hand, does not mean it is, or that they are fly fisherman. They use 11 ft noodle rods with mono on a fly reel and huge weights. The bomb cast is the new lift in disguise. Out of 10 guys that may look like they are fly fishing, only one is. The other 9 just use the physics of a longer rod and a c&d casting style to hide that they are lifting.

Pinners are just as bad. Super long drifts right in to the water you are fishing. I have also seen some interesting busy type casts with misderictional flourishes like some bad vegas magician. Move rod right side arm style. As cast moves forward spin reel, haul line down to side, REACH INTO BAG GRAB A HANDFUL OF EGGS and throw them out while making it look like you are stabbing the air with a strange two handed mend. The real trick? Different eggs than are present in the water. After a 1/2 hour the fish switched and nobody else was hooking up. I saw what color he was chumming and switched. First cast got me the hook up. After that one I move on to a new spot because I was really pissed at his unscrupulous trickery. Did I mention that no one else had a clue he was doing this? This guy was a master douche bag. What a skill...

It seems that any style of fishing can be exploited and made unethical. Centerpinning seems to be the best way to exploit the advantages of several styles of fishing. None of the things I have talked about in this post seem right or something a real sportsman would do. Where is the challenge? I think I am going to swing flies this whole winter so as not to be associated with any of this.

Just so you know, I looked at your sit and it seemed like you have it together. This is not a personal attack nor am I condeming your methods. As I said in the opener "I do not know what goes on in Ohio." This is a North Eastern Fly Fishing forum. If you are going to post here you will have to deal with what a fly fisherman who lives and fishes here sees, and the opinion he forms from that. 95% guilty (spin, pin, and fly) and 5% real sportsmen.

McA

 

[ajfromnj]

You have it right Mike. There are a holes that use all types of tackle. I think the chumming is illegal anyway... isn't it? I hear you about the "mono" fly rod guys snagging fish. I do agree that the person makes it unethical not the type of tackle used. Also, thats a great point you make about swinging flies... there is no BS there every hook up is the result of a bite. I do use CP gear for the steelhead and I do see your reasons for complaint but on the other hand I have seen many guys with fly rods doing some really bad stuff, especially on the smaller tribs. Mike I am sorry you had the experience that you did at Oswego. Also, the better CP guys that I know do not make long drifts because they are un-neccesary. If you KNOW where the fish are holding and can READ water there is no need to hog a spot up.

 

[McAwful]

AJ,

No need to apologize, I had some great trips and caught lots of fish. I knew what the game up there was before I went up the first time. For me it involves long walks in the snow to get away from people. Works out great because with the exception of a few boats, I saw no one most of the season. Feet are great.

McA

 

[flyandfloatfishing.com]

i agree that generalities are misleading, but i think ifli did a pretty good job trying not to make them. its up to the person practicing to use the method in an ethical way.

it seems to me several factors combine to bring the ire of fly fishers to centerpinning. part of the argument is the relative ease of entry into the sport (say vs fly fishing, which takes a lot of time and dedication to master) for someone who is only concerned with hookups and not with fishing concientiously. a big part of learning how to fish, for most of us, involves fishing ethics, but by jumping into centerpinning, it seems some 'select minded' people can easily bypass any ethics. that doesnt mean that all centerpinners are bad people or all flyfishers are good, but it does seem to open the door more easily for those uninclined to think about their action to have a significant and severe effect on individual fish and the resource as a whole.

by what you say fff, you sound like a concientious float fisher, but you also seem to take offense to others bashing those in your sport that are not like-minded.

Thanks for your reply to my post. I am out trying to spread the word that centerpinning is not only a "bait chucker" technique. I found this site while searching the links to my page and i wanted to see what it was all about. If it sounds like i took offense my bad, i'm just taking it all in. Now when someone says "centerpinners are bad"....... common' how can someone say that?? that is where i feel targeted. But, i know how the centerpin vs fly fishing thing goes ..... its healthy to discuss this stuff becasue when people don't know something they'll talk about it in a negative manner.. i know, i've been through it myself. my friends all could not believe it when i started pinning... then again, either could i.

thanks again, its good to talk about this stuff.

 

[flyandfloatfishing.com]

FandF.com,

I do not know what goes on in Ohio but you should see the chuckle headed shennegans that go on in the Oswego area.

First off, just because they have what appears to be a fly rod in their hand, does not mean it is, or that they are fly fisherman. They use 11 ft noodle rods with mono on a fly reel and huge weights. The bomb cast is the new lift in disguise. Out of 10 guys that may look like they are fly fishing, only one is. The other 9 just use the physics of a longer rod and a c&d casting style to hide that they are lifting.

Pinners are just as bad. Super long drifts right in to the water you are fishing. I have also seen some interesting busy type casts with misderictional flourishes like some bad vegas magician. Move rod right side arm style. As cast moves forward spin reel, haul line down to side, REACH INTO BAG GRAB A HANDFUL OF EGGS and throw them out while making it look like you are stabbing the air with a strange two handed mend. The real trick? Different eggs than are present in the water. After a 1/2 hour the fish switched and nobody else was hooking up. I saw what color he was chumming and switched. First cast got me the hook up. After that one I move on to a new spot because I was really pissed at his unscrupulous trickery. Did I mention that no one else had a clue he was doing this? This guy was a master douche bag. What a skill...

It seems that any style of fishing can be exploited and made unethical. Centerpinning seems to be the best way to exploit the advantages of several styles of fishing. None of the things I have talked about in this post seem right or something a real sportsman would do. Where is the challenge? I think I am going to swing flies this whole winter so as not to be associated with any of this.

Just so you know, I looked at your sit and it seemed like you have it together. This is not a personal attack nor am I condeming your methods. As I said in the opener "I do not know what goes on in Ohio." This is a North Eastern Fly Fishing forum. If you are going to post here you will have to deal with what a fly fisherman who lives and fishes here sees, and the opinion he forms from that. 95% guilty (spin, pin, and fly) and 5% real sportsmen.

McA

McA,

Thanks for your reply also, i know exactly what you are saying. I've fly fishing SR for years and i seen it all!!!! :guns:

ANyway, what is happening in ohio is with the growth of the world class steelhead fishery becoming more popular so too is fly fishing. We've got a lot of snagger/liners here and they target the redds in teh spring and rip steelhead right from the beds... this happens ALL THE TIME. thes guys are new, dying to catch a fish, and they are ignorant... that is why it is important to spread your wisdom with as many people you can. one person at a time.... this is what drove me to start the website in the first place.

F&F

 

[flyandfloatfishing.com]

You have it right Mike. There are a holes that use all types of tackle. I think the chumming is illegal anyway... isn't it? I hear you about the "mono" fly rod guys snagging fish. I do agree that the person makes it unethical not the type of tackle used. Also, thats a great point you make about swinging flies... there is no BS there every hook up is the result of a bite. I do use CP gear for the steelhead and I do see your reasons for complaint but on the other hand I have seen many guys with fly rods doing some really bad stuff, especially on the smaller tribs. Mike I am sorry you had the experience that you did at Oswego. Also, the better CP guys that I know do not make long drifts because they are un-neccesary. If you KNOW where the fish are holding and can READ water there is no need to hog a spot up.

ANd that you for your post too...!!!

 

[flyandfloatfishing.com]

C-pinning is a sophisticated form of bait fishing, and sophisticated forms of bait fishing were always deadly.

Here is my view of history. As a kid there were all sorts of bait pros: guys who could dead drift single salmon eggs with fly tackle, salt minnow riggers, etc. These guys were the "fish heads" of the day and caught enormous numbers of trout, especially the trophies. Today it seems that almost all serious fishermen head towards fly tackle and I don't see all that many really expert bait fishermen anymore. Bait fishing seems to be the domain of the tyro (and some Asian and East European immigrants who have absolutely deadly bait techniques developed to catch a meal in heavily pressured waters).

That seems to be changing with C-pinning, which is basically a sophisticated style of bobber fishing (the European match fishermen have even refined the techniques more). C-pinning became popular for steelhead fishing and it is only natural that it spread to the bigger trout streams since there seem to be a large number of c-pinners from Binghampton and Scranton that fish the Salmon and the Delaware regularly. A few years ago I saw three guys C-pinning below Hale's Eddy bridge. I watched until they caught 50 trout among themselves, and it didn't take too long. I will finally say that even bait fishermen have to learn their craft to do well- but when they learn it well they can catch awesome numbers of fish. There is always a challenge to fishing bait well.

I agree 100% with this post, but i have a ard time calling it a bobber:rofl:... rather a "float"

guys have been float fishing salmon river for quite a while.... the canadian influence rubbed off!

 

[JeffK]

I have been fishing with floats and 10' to 20' cane poles for a long time using techniques borrowed from British match fishermen and Southern crappie pros (do not under estimate the skills of an expert crappie guy). The terminal tackle and techniques of centerpinning seem pretty much the same, the major difference is the ability to spool out tons of line - which is also the main cause of friction IMHO. Well designed and properly weighted floats are a great way to present an offering, as any good high sticking indicator fly fisherman can tell you.

I use float tackle with flies in artificials only areas - and get a lot of crap about it. However, I would never use it in FFO areas. To me fly fishing is using the line to carry the flies rather than the lures carry the line. I know "chuck-and-duck" violates that principle, and unlike NYS many states do not consider it fly fishing.

Finally, my favorite discussion of this goes back to the 1860's and Thad Norris' American Anglers Guide. He was discussing fly fishing in high, cold water and said you could trim your wet fly, add a buck shot for weight, and fish it under a float to catch fish in these conditions, but that it is really just bait fishing with a fly.

 

[AKSkim]

my favorite discussion of this goes back to the 1860's and Thad Norris' American Anglers Guide. He was discussing fly fishing in high, cold water and said you could trim your wet fly, add a buck shot for weight, and fish it under a float to catch fish in these conditions, but that it is really just bait fishing with a fly.

Jeff:

I am just glad you didn't state you were there taking part in the discussion.

As always, paying attention to the minor details. No matter how minor.

AK Skim

 

[JeffK]

AKS,

I will always hide behind Thaddeus Norris. These arguments have been going on for a long, long time.