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proposal to close state parks
- Thread starter C&R
- Start date
Rather than making the difficult decisions regarding public pensions and benefits, Corzine has proposed only higher taxes. Cuts in areas like state parks are a miniscule part of the state budget. Maybe we should just sell everything to developers in an effort to close the budget gap.
BIGBOW
Wilderness Fanatic
This was in my local paper about a month ago after Corzine released his new proposals (including shutting down the Dept of Agriculture). My only question would be what would become of the parks? State land? Sell it to developers? Barbwire it and clone aliens from Roswell there? The budget needs to be filled, but as my paper put it, "this amount is like a pimple on an elephant."
Corndog
Ephemerella Subvaria
I can't believe High Point is on that list. It's a state landmark (highest point in the state) with a massive monument at the top that the state just spent millions restoring.
But, on the other hand, there are trout streams in the park and if they close the access points...
I'd better get my quad fixed fast! I'm only a mile away, by way the crow flies.
Cdog
But, on the other hand, there are trout streams in the park and if they close the access points...
I'd better get my quad fixed fast! I'm only a mile away, by way the crow flies.
Cdog
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Actually my understanding is that he has proposed very significant cuts across the board. While I am no longer living in NJ I do try to keep up to date with what is going on. I am very interested to hear what people think he should do with pensions and benefits. While I realize the state parks are critical to outsdoorsman and the percentage of the cuts is small in terms of impact I think you have to cut everywhere in order to get where you need to be. One approach I am not a fan of is the lack of state funding for townships unless they consolidate. I would think he should just get a law passed that states it has to be done. Same thing with school districts. You have way too many districts in the state each with their own administration costs. This could probably be consolidated by 40% That would save an enormous amount of money yet its not being done.
In case no one has noticed, his proposed cuts are in the places that would elicit a great deal of public outcry, rather than in the areas where the real fat lies. It's just another of his adolescent ploys to mis-direct our focus from the real issues, as well as to be able to say, "See, I proposed budget cuts but you people didn't want them." Don't be mis-led by his school yard tactics! We have to keep holding his feet to the fire on the real issues while letting him know these ridiculous proposals will not be acceptable. Don't forget to keep the pressure on your local legislators too! We sporstmen and women sent a powerful message in the 9th district last Nov with the ousting of Panter. Let's not let that message be forgotten by the sitting legislators!
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
The problem with that is 25% more people on unemployment which will now be in deficit in July. Thats a good deal of folks not contributing to the local economy. You all have to remember that we are a consumer driven economy so less consumption means more private companies have to lay folks off if no one id buying their goods or services
Per a previous post. The agriculture department was not being eliminated. it was being consolidated into 2 other departments. I hear a lot of folks talking about making the cuts where all of the fat is but it really appears as if folks are saying anywhere but my area of interest.
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quality time
Just finished a River Runs Through it!
One thing that hasn't been made clear is what the real impact of these closures will be. If they close High Point, does that mean that you can't swim or climb to the top of the tower any more, but you will still be able to use the hiking trails and picnic areas.....or does it mean they are going to lock the entrance roadways? Same with Round Valley....closing the beach from swimming is a lot different from locking the park gates.
I'm no fan of the current budget, or of the way that the administration is spinning everything. Cuts are being proposed more for an emotional response than they are for true fiscal responsibility. The way he handled the union contract negotiations was a sin. The school board in my small township did a better job negotiating the last contract with the NJEA.
I'm no fan of the current budget, or of the way that the administration is spinning everything. Cuts are being proposed more for an emotional response than they are for true fiscal responsibility. The way he handled the union contract negotiations was a sin. The school board in my small township did a better job negotiating the last contract with the NJEA.
quality time
Just finished a River Runs Through it!
....one other thing.....don't most of these proposed closed parks fall into areas of the state that generally vote Republican?
Corndog
Ephemerella Subvaria
QT,
What you asked above, I cannot find any detailed info on and it's a good point. If they don't close the gates to the parks, then who will be keeping an eye on the idiots that will trash and vandalize them. However, if they do close the gates and allow us to walk in for trail and fishing access, then it could be a good thing for some, including myself.
You have another good point about the closures being in republican districts. Figures, huh?
I wonder if Corzine is just bluffing on the park closures to get us to allow a tax increase of some sort??
Cdog
Rusty Spinner
Active member
Not locking the gates, just not allowing certain activities. Stephens State Park, for example, will be open but you can't camp there. High Point won't allow swimming (don't know about climbing the tower which they recently re-opened). Corzine is an idiot, but what is going to change? Our state remains in control of liberals and moderates (in that order) that got us into this mess and we will remain in their grasp until the state declares bankruptcy one day
We can't keep voting in the same party expecting them to change. It's like the old definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...
We can't keep voting in the same party expecting them to change. It's like the old definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Not locking the gates, just not allowing certain activities. Stephens State Park, for example, will be open but you can't camp there. High Point won't allow swimming (don't know about climbing the tower which they recently re-opened). Corzine is an idiot, but what is going to change? Our state remains in control of liberals and moderates (in that order) that got us into this mess and we will remain in their grasp until the state declares bankruptcy one day
We can't keep voting in the same party expecting them to change. It's like the old definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...
Well Im no fan of liberal government but I dont recall the last republican governor being much better. In fact I remember how she raided the pension plan to prop up the budget and make the numbers look pretty.
Back to consolidation .......
For years I bought that consolidation is good for reasons of efficiency. I am an engineer after all. However, this is NJ and recent studies I saw indicated that smaller towns actually run more efficiently since they are smaller, more transparent organizations. The larger towns lose efficiency through bloated bureacracies and it is easier to hide corruption. When I mentioned the efficiency issue to a small town politician last night I got an earful about how many small towns have quietly formed joint school districts, share police etc. The small towns have limited budgets and they find the best ways to use their funds on their own - they have to be efficient. He didn't think the state dictates would save anyone money.
For years I bought that consolidation is good for reasons of efficiency. I am an engineer after all. However, this is NJ and recent studies I saw indicated that smaller towns actually run more efficiently since they are smaller, more transparent organizations. The larger towns lose efficiency through bloated bureacracies and it is easier to hide corruption. When I mentioned the efficiency issue to a small town politician last night I got an earful about how many small towns have quietly formed joint school districts, share police etc. The small towns have limited budgets and they find the best ways to use their funds on their own - they have to be efficient. He didn't think the state dictates would save anyone money.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
I didn't say anything about Democrats or Republicans - I said liberals and moderates. Whitman was a moderate. You are correct in your assessment, but at least we didn't have to worry about the make-up of our F&G Council in those days.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Hey Jeff: a couple of statistics. NJ currently has 593 school districts and almost 2500 schools. Mean average salary for a superintendant in a district is 140K. mean avg. salary for a principal is about 115K and classroom teacher mean avg salary is 59K. mean salary for educational support services is 68K. population of NJ is roughly 9 million.
PA: population is 12 plus million and there are currently 501 districts. I think we can agree that Pa is a little bigger than NJ and thus districts are more spread out. While I dont have salary numbers for PA for a comparison, its my opinion that a certain level of consolidation is warranted in NJ and could be done without harming the quality of education.
Small towns in every state typically share resources but in NJ I know of several towns south of 195 that dont undertake this practice. The result is higher costs to the taxpayers.
quality time
Just finished a River Runs Through it!
First you tee it up, and then you swing! (pardon my bad golf analogy) He's a rich Democrat, raising taxes is all he knows.
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Macfly,
I hear you. There seems to be a ton of administrators in NJ. I lived in Illinios for 5 years and IL my taxes were 1/4 of my NJ taxes. Town taxes were the same or a tad more in IL - the difference was school taxes. I lived in suburban IL where teacher salaries/class size was equivalent and the big difference is beaucratic overhead.
Since the administrative overhead is so high, consolidation makes sense. However, be careful that the consolidation actually reduces costs. At work I have gone thrugh a number of consolidations the last few years and each time another layer of management is added and the overhead keeps going up! That is in private industry. I would imagine senior people holding on to jobs (they didn't get there with poor survival skills) and empire building would be no less in town and school politics.
I hear you. There seems to be a ton of administrators in NJ. I lived in Illinios for 5 years and IL my taxes were 1/4 of my NJ taxes. Town taxes were the same or a tad more in IL - the difference was school taxes. I lived in suburban IL where teacher salaries/class size was equivalent and the big difference is beaucratic overhead.
Since the administrative overhead is so high, consolidation makes sense. However, be careful that the consolidation actually reduces costs. At work I have gone thrugh a number of consolidations the last few years and each time another layer of management is added and the overhead keeps going up! That is in private industry. I would imagine senior people holding on to jobs (they didn't get there with poor survival skills) and empire building would be no less in town and school politics.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Fair point and I would say this is something that the taxpayers in the respective districts should be keeping an eye on. After all they are paying the freight as it were.
Corndog
Ephemerella Subvaria
No need to appologize for your bad golf analogy, you can catch fish so there's no reason to learn to golf.
Cdog
BIGBOW
Wilderness Fanatic
That's eliminated in gov't terms!! Besides the loss of jobs, do you really think the "consolidated" depts will do for NJ what the Dept of Agriculture has done for our state. I can see doing away with Personnnel because other depts already absorb much of what they do, and Commerce seems like it can be divided in my opinion, but if you like to fish in this state, you might want to think again. As per their website, much of Agriculture's vision is towards providing clean and healthy soil and water. They also oversee much of the fishing industry in our waters (clams, swordfish, whiting, etc) and make it their goal to keep these waters healthy, as well as fresh water. Furthermore, NJs 3rd largest income comes from agricluture.. not just farming is involved here, but the thousands of proccessing jobs, manufacturing jobs, etc. IMO this dept cant be "consolidated" without feeling the wrath. Only 2 other states in the whole country do not have an Dept of Agriculture. I see you live in PA, where you wouldn't need to worry. Hope this doesnt sound angry, but hopefully helps you understand what NJ would be facing.
P.S. Who was testing our meets the other week during recall?
BIGBOW
Wilderness Fanatic
For much of the 1990s, PA was in the top 10 for per pupil spending, while NJ was dead last. Now NJ has taken the lead, but PA is still in the top ten.
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MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
I live in PA but was born and raised in NJ. Left NJ for many of the reasons you are now seeing come to light. No one ever said it wouldn't be difficult and its likely that consolidation of those departments into a single department would have some significant bumps along the way but what I find equally troubling is that while everyone wants the issue fixed no one wants it to impact things they want or like. So in the end its likley nothing will get fixed and your taxes will be raised even more to cover the debt. If your happy with that result so be it. No need to apologize...Its just a debate over issues and you are certaily entitled to express your views
BIGBOW
Wilderness Fanatic
Just one more thing on condensing school districts. If you merge districts, you may not have to pay as many superintendents, but you will surely have to hire more teachers, for classroom sizes would increase dramatically. The other option would be oversized classes, which means less teaching being done and a dumber NJ (which I really dont think we can afford at this point!).:dizzy:
irish1
I’d rather be standing in a River waving a stick
DaveB has it right...This is a temper tantrum by Corzine. He didn't get his way trying to raise tolls so he will 'take his ball and go home'. God forbid he really thinks about cutting spending, that's where the fat is. I think he went through the budget and said 'What can we cut to p***-off the least amount of people'. Because most of the state is considered Urban he started by attacking the outdoor spaces and activities.
According to the article "Jackson said only Island Beach State Park operates at a surplus. However, she said the DEP was reluctant to raise fees for parking and camping because the parks are typically used by people of modest means." Few of those impacted by this move contributed to him or any other elected official.
This state needs begin thinking about open space and decide if it wants it or not. If not just sell it all off now and stop dragging it out.
According to the article "Jackson said only Island Beach State Park operates at a surplus. However, she said the DEP was reluctant to raise fees for parking and camping because the parks are typically used by people of modest means." Few of those impacted by this move contributed to him or any other elected official.
This state needs begin thinking about open space and decide if it wants it or not. If not just sell it all off now and stop dragging it out.
Corndog
Ephemerella Subvaria
BB,
You mention school districts merging...I agree with you...don't mess with the schools. Laura Bush put together a team in 2006 to study success/failure of our high schools in the US. What came out of this study was that NJ has the highest graduation rates in the country. Sussex County High Schools were all above 90%. Meaning more than 90 out of 100 kids entering high school graduated. NY was down around 60% and PA and CT were in the 80% range. Washington DC had the lowest. Figures. If Corsine messes with the schools I think many affluent people, concerned about their childrens education, will move to PA or CT, myself included.
Cdog
I am no liberal or conservative
Does anyone else see the irony of a bunch of Republicans getting pissed at a Democrat for trying to cut expenses?
I hate it when anyone makes an argument like "they do X in France so we should do it too." Then move to France. You can extend that argument to PA. I spent ten years there and will take crappy old NJ any day.
Tom
Does anyone else see the irony of a bunch of Republicans getting pissed at a Democrat for trying to cut expenses?
I hate it when anyone makes an argument like "they do X in France so we should do it too." Then move to France. You can extend that argument to PA. I spent ten years there and will take crappy old NJ any day.
Tom
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