weirdnjfly
New member
Well now that i got you here what do you think about the guide schools out west or even the couple here on the east coast are they worth the money?
Give us a try!
Welcome back to the new NEFF. Take a break from Twitter and Facebook. You don't go to Dicks for your fly fishing gear, you go to your local fly fishing store. Enjoy!
Pro Guides Free
- Thread starter weirdnjfly
- Start date
Trouser Trout
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Sort of reminds me of when a woman wants to be a sportscaster. Boys grow up collecting baseball cards, playing baseball and watching games and spend a lifetime accumulating information that they couldn't possibly learn in a few classes, and women decide when they are 18 after playing with barbies and listening to top 40 music that talking about sports would be a great career, they are already years behind in information that they will never recover or learn. I think the same theory can be applied to someone who wishes to become a guide. If you didn't start at a young age you will never compete. A very good friend of mine guides in Montana, Alaska, and Canada. He was also the kid who started hunting at a very young age, always took deer week off, and figured out a way to hunt more than anyone else as well as kill tons of deer by the time he was 18, a few weeks of guide school will never compensate for experience.
weirdnjfly
New member
well said and great example. thanks TT
CTobias
Professional BS'r
Guide schools are a waste of money. Sure they have job placement, but the money sucks when you do that.
You have to find your niche and make a name for yourself that way.
My buddies that are guides love it, but they're always broke (probably because they have all new equipment and could outfit Fat Nancy's). Even with guide discounts you are still spending a lot of coin.
What I would suggest, and take it for what it's worth (which isn't much). Become financially stable, pay off all your debt, save some money and then go guide. If it's not for you go back to doing what you did and fish for fun.
Don't forget, most clients expect to catch fish, and you can't make the fish bite.
Being around people is great, except when they really begin to annoy you and ask a lot of questions and start telling you where they should be fishing.
Trust me, sometimes it ain't all it's cracked up to be. With that said, come look me up if you need a guide in Alaska.
You have to find your niche and make a name for yourself that way.
My buddies that are guides love it, but they're always broke (probably because they have all new equipment and could outfit Fat Nancy's). Even with guide discounts you are still spending a lot of coin.
What I would suggest, and take it for what it's worth (which isn't much). Become financially stable, pay off all your debt, save some money and then go guide. If it's not for you go back to doing what you did and fish for fun.
Don't forget, most clients expect to catch fish, and you can't make the fish bite.
Being around people is great, except when they really begin to annoy you and ask a lot of questions and start telling you where they should be fishing.
Trust me, sometimes it ain't all it's cracked up to be. With that said, come look me up if you need a guide in Alaska.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
I started in fly fishing guide school when I was 7 years old. Been in school a long time now. Not sure if I'll ever graduate as I keep learning every day. But the past 41 years of school have been a blast.
If anyone is serious about guiding, you need to know that you can earn a much better living working the night shift at McDonalds. Do it because you love it or do it as a second job (which is what I do), but don't expect to stay in one state year round and work regularly. Exceptions would be southern states like Florida.
If anyone is serious about guiding, you need to know that you can earn a much better living working the night shift at McDonalds. Do it because you love it or do it as a second job (which is what I do), but don't expect to stay in one state year round and work regularly. Exceptions would be southern states like Florida.
weirdnjfly
New member
guys great points they all are being soaked in. i understand all points as far as what i ment for this question is just to get certified and learn a few thinks about skiffs and etc. if i ever did do this im not paying and if i did guide it would be part time my main job is too important. pls keep em coming
Trouser Trout
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
i am sure any guide school would be a great experience. but, you really should consider a GED first.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
I believe some states require a guide be "certified". NJ does not. I've heard guides in other states like PA or NY where there are fees associated with guiding although I don't pretend to know what they are or how much they are say that guides that are not licensed are somehow not "real guides". That is B.S. Paying fees to guide doesn't make one a good guide, it only means you pay fees. I've seen great guides, good guides and bums in states that require fees. Same goes for states that have no license or other fees associated with guiding. Our insurance carrier requires all our guides to have and to be current on CPR certification and that's it.
Being a good guide requires many things, and not all can be taught. Well, maybe they can be taught, but that doesn't mean the student will necessarily learn. Patience, patience, patience, the three key factors. Knowing the water you're guiding on. Reading your client as in knowing what he/she/they want and expect out of the day. Teaching them valuable lessons that will translate into them catching more fish. Those things are key to not only being a good guide, but to having fun on the water with your clients. These days I enjoy guiding as much as fishing most days. That may seem odd to some, but helping someone figure out how to catch more fish is very rewarding. Every once in awhile, you get a good angler that is in town and hires you to learn the local water. They need virtually no instruction. Those are rare trips, and in those I spend time letting them know what flies are effective on our waters and what is hatching while they're in town in case they go out the next day on their own (and if they do, I'll send them to a bunch of new water to try). Most clients can greatly benefit from lessons in line control, casting, mending, fly selection, etc. Help those clients put the pieces together and watch the smile come over their faces when they figure it all out and you'll both/all have a good day on the water.
CTobias
Professional BS'r
New York guide license requirements are all about money. Take a test, pay the $100 and some odd dollars, take your CPR, basic water safety, then BAM certeeeeefeeyed NYS Fishing Guide. Now you are legally permitted to bend people over and charge them exorbitant amounts of money to show them nothing on how to fish. Well at least most guides I've seen. Only a handful of good ones I've met.
Trouser Trout
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Being a guide i am sure for the most part is an annoying job. I can't imagine what it is like to deal with annoying sports who are paying you yet you can't stand them and realize your livelyhood depends on it. I know that is how any guide i ever hired felt.
CTobias
Professional BS'r
Haha. Shhhhhh. Don't tell everyone guides are all miserable. I have seen guides yelling at their clients on the Salmon River. You'd think they would be much nicer since those clients were paying a portion of his mortgage, or trailer rental.
flyI4
Fishizzle, I use worms but I'm looking to upgrade!
Another thing you want to think about is do you really want to make your hobby something you do for a living? I was fortunate to do a short 4 year stint during college summers and that was just about enough for me to have a great experience, meet some good people, and get out before I got burnt out.
You need to remember, to make good money you need to work every day during the season of Mid april to July. To even cover your costs of certification,ect in the catskills you need to do 15-20 trips a year. Its also a competitive business, so not being a "real" guide and getting good gear, a boat, and other luxuries clients typically want will make it difficult to stay even somewhat busy.
Lastly, very rarely do you get in the boat with someone that can throw a nice 45-50foot line. Its one thing to not be fishing, and instead guiding another guy that can fish. Its an entirely different thing not fishing during prime time, taking a guy out who is over weight, cant cast 15 feet and fish are rising all around you. Its not fun, and you will yell at people, I promise. I think I was fortunate that I was younger and the lodge I worked for only gave me the hardcore younger people because they didn't think I had the patience to deal with the novice/older crowd, but its inevitable you will get a good amount of your business from anglers with limited skill sets. After all, really good fisherman don't need a guide right?
You need to remember, to make good money you need to work every day during the season of Mid april to July. To even cover your costs of certification,ect in the catskills you need to do 15-20 trips a year. Its also a competitive business, so not being a "real" guide and getting good gear, a boat, and other luxuries clients typically want will make it difficult to stay even somewhat busy.
Lastly, very rarely do you get in the boat with someone that can throw a nice 45-50foot line. Its one thing to not be fishing, and instead guiding another guy that can fish. Its an entirely different thing not fishing during prime time, taking a guy out who is over weight, cant cast 15 feet and fish are rising all around you. Its not fun, and you will yell at people, I promise. I think I was fortunate that I was younger and the lodge I worked for only gave me the hardcore younger people because they didn't think I had the patience to deal with the novice/older crowd, but its inevitable you will get a good amount of your business from anglers with limited skill sets. After all, really good fisherman don't need a guide right?
Trouser Trout
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
If I had a guide yell at me, he would get his ass kicked.
Last edited:
Trouser Trout
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
One Finger Lakes guide I know claims to be a successful guide you have to reach the point in your life where you would rather see other people catch fish than catch fish yourself. Sounds about right. Also, there is a big difference in being able to do something well yourself and being able to teach someone to do something well.
I would think new guides probably need some lessons in business practices - guiding is a small business after all. Most people considering guiding probably know the fishing and boat handling part. They may not know the cash flow, book keeping, customer service, marketing, return on investment, etc part of the job as well. Need to handle the money well to make a living.
I would think new guides probably need some lessons in business practices - guiding is a small business after all. Most people considering guiding probably know the fishing and boat handling part. They may not know the cash flow, book keeping, customer service, marketing, return on investment, etc part of the job as well. Need to handle the money well to make a living.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
If that ever happens to me, I'll quite guiding that same day.
I can honestly say that I've never had a bad day/experience while guiding. I have had a few sports that just wouldn't listen or at least wouldn't listen enough, but that is their problem. If they're paying me to guide them and don't want to learn anything new, then I'm glad to take their money. Besides, I know something I say will eventually sink in. But most clients keep an open mind and will learn a lot if they do. That said, I have a good buddy who is wicked smart that refuses to listen to any guide and yet he needs to more than most. A few here may have guided him on the upper D and know who I mean
As a client, you owe it to yourself to listen and to learn from your guide. If the guide doesn't teach you anything, then don't hire them again and don't give them a good tip. But also don't tip on the number of fish you land. That's not always within the guide's control. Did the guide know the water/hatches/etc. and did the guide work hard to put you on fish? That's how I look at things when I hire a guide myself.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
I must admit that where you guide affects things as well. Guiding a lousy caster from a drift boat on the Upper D is a lot different than taking that same angler on a wade trip in NJ waters where you can almost always get them within proper casting distance. I might change my mind on several things I posted earlier if I was guiding someone that can't cast and is complaining that I'm "keeping my drift boat anchored too far away from the rising fish" as I know happens because I've seen it many times. JC, you did just fine guiding on the side on the upper D. But the older, out of shape, bad casting crew is the norm for certain lodges and not the exception. Those are the guys that can afford the trips and the guides. But if they aren't willing to learn new things, I might keep some extra anchors on the boat with some short pieces of rope....
flyI4
Fishizzle, I use worms but I'm looking to upgrade!
At the end of the day you're def right brian, a bad day guiding is still a great day relative to to what most experience throughout their work day. I'll add to my prior post that while I did get frustrated at times, it still was a great experience that I wont forget and I was not trying to bash the profession in anyway, its just funny how intense a day of fishing can become when you're trying to get results for a client, deal with crowds, time the bugs right, ect. I think the biggest thing I take away form guiding is exactly what you eluded to Trouser Trout, time spent on the water is everything. You get tuned in to whats going on and after a while you're going to have success just about every day. Sometimes I get frustrated now because I know I'm not as tuned in as a result of less time on the water. I'll roll the dice on a less consistent section of river thinking I made the right call (no people and lots of fish) and the bugs don't show, ect. Then it hits me, I'm back to being a weekend warrior.
skipper3245
Barbless Hooks save lives
Guiding is very psychological. If you do not gain control in the first ten minutes of the trip, there is a great chance that you will not come out with a satisfied client. This is much harder when you are guiding an experienced fisherman. He is going to think he is better than you, and probably is on his home river, but he is on your river and if you are a good guide you have done your homework and should have enough confidence to take control right off the bat. If he feels as if he is in control #1 he will think at the end of the day no matter how many fish he catches, "I just paid $450 FOR NOTHING I could have done that on my own" and #2 if he had a crummy fish day he will think you did not do too much to help him catch fish. Now with new to fly fishing clients I have found that all they care about is how patient you are. The more frustrated you look and act the worse they will do and more embarrassed they will be. Well say you were taking up golfing for the first time and you shot like shit and you have tiger woods telling you that you really are not good im sure you would feel like shit. Anyway, once you gain control of the situation they are in your hands and they trust you. They will listen to everything you say and if you bring them success they will thank you and if you dont bring them success they will at least know you tried very hard as long as you bust your ass all day. They didnt hire you to catch fish. They could do that on their own. The hired you to enhance the experience of that day.
BrownChickenBrownTrout
New member
You guys are all a bunch of fucking women. You barely answer the question and then go on and on a about how guiding makes you feel. Tampon wearing pussies.
Here's an answer for you. Call up the guide school. Ask them for a graduates number. Then ask him what he thinks it taught him.
Simple.
Here's an answer for you. Call up the guide school. Ask them for a graduates number. Then ask him what he thinks it taught him.
Simple.
skipper3245
Barbless Hooks save lives
you are one tough guy. I hope I never get into a fight with you.
skipper3245
Barbless Hooks save lives
O and i never read the question wierdnjfly sorry, but guide school is really not worth the money anywhere. I would just buy a boat and start rowing it. You will figure it out over time. Guide some friends and make your way in at an outfitter. Thats how most do it. Just like any business. You have to network and find out who you need to know to get an In somewhere. But going to an outfitters guide school will most def find you a job if he likes ya.
CTobias
Professional BS'r
Like others have said, time on the water is EVERYTHING.
As for the guide school, if you do go to one Montana you can get hooked up with a summer gig. It would be decent to test the waters and see how you like it. I looked into it a while back, but wasn't willing to spend the coin.
Just going to learn the ropes in AK for a few years and then get in with an outfitter or go on my own.
On a side note, back to the being on the water part, one season I was asked to do a trip with a guide friend of mine during early salmon season. This was this guides first trip of the year and he needed a second boat. I had been fishing the mouth of the river as well as the river every day. We both new the salmon were scattered as well as far and few between.
But, because I had been up there I knew they had pushed up top fast and what they were looking for (I know, salmon don't bite). Anyways, I had my two guys rigged up much different than my guide buddies sports. We were into fish within the first 15 minutes of being there. The other guys didn't hook a thing all day. Was I that good? No, but I told the guys exactly what to do and gave them the proper tools to do so. It was quite relaxing just rowing and watching my guys hook fish, even if they weren't able to land a thing all day.
Needless to say, that guide buddy never asked for me to go out with him again. Haha. Oh well, so it goes.
As for the guide school, if you do go to one Montana you can get hooked up with a summer gig. It would be decent to test the waters and see how you like it. I looked into it a while back, but wasn't willing to spend the coin.
Just going to learn the ropes in AK for a few years and then get in with an outfitter or go on my own.
On a side note, back to the being on the water part, one season I was asked to do a trip with a guide friend of mine during early salmon season. This was this guides first trip of the year and he needed a second boat. I had been fishing the mouth of the river as well as the river every day. We both new the salmon were scattered as well as far and few between.
But, because I had been up there I knew they had pushed up top fast and what they were looking for (I know, salmon don't bite). Anyways, I had my two guys rigged up much different than my guide buddies sports. We were into fish within the first 15 minutes of being there. The other guys didn't hook a thing all day. Was I that good? No, but I told the guys exactly what to do and gave them the proper tools to do so. It was quite relaxing just rowing and watching my guys hook fish, even if they weren't able to land a thing all day.
Needless to say, that guide buddy never asked for me to go out with him again. Haha. Oh well, so it goes.
Joe D
Registered User
Education is not a bad thing and if the school will teach you skills that you don't currently posses it could help jump start you. Definitely check with a few references. As an example, if you never learned how to teach casting, a guide school would give you the basic teaching skills. You'd learn a little about guide etiquette too. But still, these things don't require a couple of thousand dollars and a weeks time to learn. They do require experience though and volunteering for school programs, TU or FFF chapter's classes or a scouting program will help you gain that experience.
Most of the schools will teach things like knots, fishing techniques and the like (which should be a waste of time and money to you). Other things like boat handling can't be taught in a week but you'd gain the basic idea. First aid & CPR are important to know and can easily be acquired locally so if that's on the school curriculum it would be just filler and a waste of school time.
In a one week guide school you really aren't going to learn a ton but you could get a taste of what the job entails. In the end, depending on what and where you'll be guiding, you'll still need to meet licensing requirements, either state, federal or both. To be successful at it you also have to be passionate about guiding and passionate about fishing.
You have to want to wake up every day naturally without the aid of an alarm clock simply because you can't wait to start the day. You sometimes work 60 or 70 seventy days straight only because it doesn't feel like work and at the end of the stretch you can't believe the time flew by so quickly. You have a strong love for your environment and are eager to share it with others less fortunate and you understand that wealth isn't necessarily money.
So back to your original question, are guide schools worth the money? Probably not. You can't teach passion and desire and if you posses that, odds are you already have learned the skills or are very close to learning them. Do some traveling and hire some guides. That can teach you a lot about what makes a good guide and what doesn't. It's probably a better way to spend the tuition.
Most of the schools will teach things like knots, fishing techniques and the like (which should be a waste of time and money to you). Other things like boat handling can't be taught in a week but you'd gain the basic idea. First aid & CPR are important to know and can easily be acquired locally so if that's on the school curriculum it would be just filler and a waste of school time.
In a one week guide school you really aren't going to learn a ton but you could get a taste of what the job entails. In the end, depending on what and where you'll be guiding, you'll still need to meet licensing requirements, either state, federal or both. To be successful at it you also have to be passionate about guiding and passionate about fishing.
You have to want to wake up every day naturally without the aid of an alarm clock simply because you can't wait to start the day. You sometimes work 60 or 70 seventy days straight only because it doesn't feel like work and at the end of the stretch you can't believe the time flew by so quickly. You have a strong love for your environment and are eager to share it with others less fortunate and you understand that wealth isn't necessarily money.
So back to your original question, are guide schools worth the money? Probably not. You can't teach passion and desire and if you posses that, odds are you already have learned the skills or are very close to learning them. Do some traveling and hire some guides. That can teach you a lot about what makes a good guide and what doesn't. It's probably a better way to spend the tuition.
Trouser Trout
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Nice but really, what does this guy know about professional guiding?
skipper3245
Barbless Hooks save lives
A good question you should ask yourself before you even think about guiding. Are you married? If the answer is yes, then I wouldnt even consider doing any of this. As they say, "good guides dont die. They get married"
