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It just doesn't stop! This is very disturbing!!!!

The UK health care system employs 1.4 million the third largest employer in the world behind the Chinese Red army and India's National Rail, 65% of the employees are administrative.
 
Kilgour Farms said:
What I find ironic is that they build the Dulles Airport so the congressmen could get to an airport relatively easy via the Dulles Toll Road with two lane dedicated for airport travel and a large majority of them use Reagan National which if you've ever been to is a classic butt f--k to get in and out of.

Every one of these politician should be voted out until they get the message that we employ them and they are there to serve us not the other way around.
Click to expand...
Well said.. wish they undrstood that.
 
MACFLY said:
Careful now AK...They have a site set up for people to email this kind of negative talk against the administration:)
Click to expand...


BIG BROTHER MACFLY

Yes I am aware that there are those out there watching me very closely.
 
Future Fanatic said:
Don't the employers choose what health insurance plan that they will offer their employees? I mean even if I liked my plan, couldn't my employer choose to offer the government plan to its employees?
Click to expand...

if the employer takes the Gov plan there is an 8% pay roll tax.
 
tompg said:
In the interest of stoking the flames:

Link: washingtonpost.com

article:

Republicans Propagating Falsehoods in Attacks on Health-Care Reform

By Steven Pearlstein
Friday, August 7, 2009

As a columnist who regularly dishes out sharp criticism, I try not to question the motives of people with whom I don't agree. Today, I'm going to step over that line.

The recent attacks by Republican leaders and their ideological fellow-travelers on the effort to reform the health-care system have been so misleading, so disingenuous, that they could only spring from a cynical effort to gain partisan political advantage. By poisoning the political well, they've given up any pretense of being the loyal opposition. They've become political terrorists, willing to say or do anything to prevent the country from reaching a consensus on one of its most serious domestic problems.

There are lots of valid criticisms that can be made against the health reform plans moving through Congress -- I've made a few myself. But there is no credible way to look at what has been proposed by the president or any congressional committee and conclude that these will result in a government takeover of the health-care system. That is a flat-out lie whose only purpose is to scare the public and stop political conversation.

Under any plan likely to emerge from Congress, the vast majority of Americans who are not old or poor will continue to buy health insurance from private companies, continue to get their health care from doctors in private practice and continue to be treated at privately owned hospitals.

The centerpiece of all the plans is a new health insurance exchange set up by the government where individuals, small businesses and eventually larger businesses will be able to purchase insurance from private insurers at lower rates than are now generally available under rules that require insurers to offer coverage to anyone regardless of health condition. Low-income workers buying insurance through the exchange -- along with their employers -- would be eligible for government subsidies. While the government will take a more active role in regulating the insurance market and increase its spending for health care, that hardly amounts to the kind of government-run system that critics conjure up when they trot out that oh-so-clever line about the Department of Motor Vehicles being in charge of your colonoscopy.
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There is still a vigorous debate as to whether one of the insurance options offered through those exchanges would be a government-run insurance company of some sort. There are now less-than-even odds that such a public option will survive in the Senate, while even House leaders have agreed that the public plan won't be able to piggy-back on Medicare. So the probability that a public-run insurance plan is about to drive every private insurer out of business -- the Republican nightmare scenario -- is approximately zero.

By now, you've probably also heard that health reform will cost taxpayers at least a trillion dollars. Another lie.

First of all, that's not a trillion every year, as most people assume -- it's a trillion over 10 years, which is the silly way that people in Washington talk about federal budgets. On an annual basis, that translates to about $140 billion, when things are up and running.

Even that, however, grossly overstates the net cost to the government of providing universal coverage. Other parts of the reform plan would result in offsetting savings for Medicare: reductions in unnecessary subsidies to private insurers, in annual increases in payments rates for doctors and in payments to hospitals for providing free care to the uninsured. The net increase in government spending for health care would likely be about $100 billion a year, a one-time increase equal to less than 1 percent of a national income that grows at an average rate of 2.5 percent every year.

The Republican lies about the economics of health reform are also heavily laced with hypocrisy.

While holding themselves out as paragons of fiscal rectitude, Republicans grandstand against just about every idea to reduce the amount of health care people consume or the prices paid to health-care providers -- the only two ways I can think of to credibly bring health spending under control.

When Democrats, for example, propose to fund research to give doctors, patients and health plans better information on what works and what doesn't, Republicans sense a sinister plot to have the government decide what treatments you will get. By the same wacko-logic, a proposal that Medicare pay for counseling on end-of-life care is transformed into a secret plan for mass euthanasia of the elderly.

Government negotiation on drug prices? The end of medical innovation as we know it, according to the GOP's Dr. No. Reduce Medicare payments to overpriced specialists and inefficient hospitals? The first step on the slippery slope toward rationing.

Can there be anyone more two-faced than the Republican leaders who in one breath rail against the evils of government-run health care and in another propose a government-subsidized high-risk pool for people with chronic illness, government-subsidized community health centers for the uninsured, and opening up Medicare to people at age 55?

Health reform is a test of whether this country can function once again as a civil society -- whether we can trust ourselves to embrace the big, important changes that require everyone to give up something in order to make everyone better off. Republican leaders are eager to see us fail that test. We need to show them that no matter how many lies they tell or how many scare tactics they concoct, Americans will come together and get this done.

If health reform is to be anyone's Waterloo, let it be theirs.

Steven Pearlstein can be reached at pearlsteins@washpost.com.
Click to expand...

What I find insane especially from a guy who is supposed to be an economist is that he believes this bill will come in less than what is projected. Only 100 billion a year..chump change I guess. Amazing. Healthcare is not a test of whether ths country can function as a civil society. Its a test of whether or not the ideology that is behind the current administrations actions will win the day. We are in dire economic times and we are planning to add a trillion dollars of spending to not control costs but expand access to millions of americans for healthcare. To fund this expansion it is clear that the current group of taxpayers who fund anywhere from 65-80% of the current tax bill will get tagged to pay even more. When the time comes to repair social security this same group will be called on as well. If america believes that we should provide healthcare to all citizens than by that logic it should be a burden shared by all citizens. I personally dont believe its a guaranteed right and I clearly would not ever want to see a public option controlled by our government but whatever the bill if you are so passionate about providing it as an entitlement than pony up to the bar and pay your share. If not than the debate is not a debate since you have no skin in the game.
 
More information on the Healthcare Bill. Some have posted on this thread that getting healthcare would be optional. I am afraid that is not the case. It will be mandatory if this bill as written passes.

Pg 22 of the HC Bill
MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 30 Sec 123
THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get

PG 50 Section 152
HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise

Pg 58
Govt will have real-time access to individual’s finances & a National ID Healthcard will be issued!

Pg 59 lines 21-24
Govt will have direct access to your banks accts for electronic funds transfer

Pg 95 Lines 8-18
The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan

PG 85 Line 7
Specs of Benefit Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - Your Healthcare WILL be rationed

PG 102 Lines 12-18
Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice

PG 124 lines 24-25
No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Govt Monopoly

PG 127 Lines 1-16
Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what you can make.

Pg 145 Line 15-17
An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public opt plan. NO CHOICE

Pg 146 Lines 22-25
Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.

Pg 149 Lines 16-24
ANY Employer with payroll 400k & above who does not provide public opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

PG 150 Lines 9-13
Business with payroll between 251k & 400k who doesn’t provide public opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

Pg 167 Lines 18-23
ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptable HC according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income

Pg 170 Lines 1-3
Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay)

Pg 195
Officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access to ALL American’s financial/personal records

PG 425 Lines 4-12
Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consultant. Think Senior Citizens end of life

Pg 425 Lines 17-19
Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3
Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death

PG 427 Lines 15-24
Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. The Govt has a say in how your life ends

Pg 429 Lines 1-9
An “adanced care planning consultant” will be used frequently as patient’s health deteriorates

PG 429 Lines 10-12
“advanced care consultation” may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV

Pg 429 Lines 13-25 -
The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

PG 430 Lines 11-15
The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life


All I can say is welcome to the Twilight Zone. Dont try to adjust the reception on your TV!!!

Now you might have some sense of why there are a lot of angry Americans out there!!
 
BIGBOW said:
Good point. Furthermore, lets not forget to mention the fact that many (not all) of these uninsured who wait to the last minute for medical attention could have been treated much earlier for their symptoms if they had coverage.
Click to expand...



Not only that, but the majority of people who are uninsured (about 50 million), choose to be that way. There are actually only about five million people who just can't get insurance.
 
Future Fanatic said:
Don't the employers choose what health insurance plan that they will offer their employees? I mean even if I liked my plan, couldn't my employer choose to offer the government plan to its employees?
Click to expand...


Yes, and in most cases the employers will just take the penalty or pay the 8% tax because the government system will be cheaper.
 
And another gagger bites the dust!

This pile of steaming bullshit was posted in the comments by the illustrious Wes earlier today. I shall dismantle it piece, by bullshitty piece.

Cylenschmuck…Cold hard facts: Page 29. The bill admits on page 29 that your health care will be rationed.

Cy took care of this one.

Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get.

Yes! A "public/private" committee will be formed to determine the range of services offered. Without a central planning committee, I guess we'd be covering... what, exactly? If you are going to offer coverage, you kinda have to define what you are covering. Otherwise, I could set up my "Ellipses' Fart Therapy Clinic" and collect gubbermint dollas.


Page 58: Every person will be issued a national ID health card.

Wow, so they are going to do EXACTLY WHAT PRIVATE INSURERS DO NOW? Fuck you, batman!

Page 59: The federal government will have direct real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

Well, let's see what it ACTUALLY says?
"The standards under this section shall be developed, adopted and enforced so as to… (C) enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with the related health care payment and remittance advice"

So, I can pay for services rendered electronically? The same way I pay my water bill, my car insurance, my Amex bill, my student loans, my mortgage, my gas bill, my electric bill, my car payments, and every other fucking expense that I have? Are these people from the fucking future?

Page 239: The bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid, meaning there will be Medicaid cuts.

Medicaid will be folded into the public option. This will be done by phasing out physician services in order to compute costs from 2011 onward. Basically, the only honest thing in this statement is that it's on page 239... but it runs over to page 240, so even that is bullshit.

Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment. Government dictates how your life ends. The Washington Post read the section, Section 1233 and came to the same disturbing conclusion:
“Ideally, the delicate decisions about how to manage life's end would be made in a setting that is neutral in both appearance and fact. Yes, it's good to have a doctor's perspective. But Section 1233 goes beyond facilitating doctor input to preferring it. Indeed, the measure would have an interested party -- the government -- recruit doctors to sell the elderly on living wills, hospice care and their associated providers, professions and organizations. You don't have to be a right-wing wacko to question that approach.”

The relevant part of this actually starts on page 426:
‘‘(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of
orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar
orders, which shall include—
‘‘(I) the reasons why the development of
such an order is beneficial to the individual and
the individual’s family and the reasons why
such an order should be updated periodically as
the health of the individual changes;"

which goes onto say:

‘‘(II) the information needed for an indi10
vidual or legal surrogate to make informed deci11
sions regarding the completion of such an
order; and
‘‘(III) the identification of resources that
an individual may use to determine the require15
ments of the State in which such individual re16
sides so that the treatment wishes of that indi17
vidual will be carried out if the individual is un18
able to communicate those wishes, including re19
quirements regarding the designation of a sur20
rogate decisionmaker (also known as a health
care proxy).
‘‘(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement
for explanations under clause (i) to consultations
furnished in a State—

•HR 3200 IH
‘‘(I) in which all legal barriers have been
addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining
treatment to constitute a set of medical orders
respected across all care settings; and
‘‘(II) that has in effect a program for or6
ders for life sustaining treatment described in
clause (iii).
‘‘(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
treatment for a States described in this clause is a
program that—
‘‘(I) ensures such orders are standardized
and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;
‘‘(II) distributes or makes accessible such
orders to physicians and other health profes15
sionals that (acting within the scope of the pro16
fessional’s authority under State law) may sign
orders for life sustaining treatment;
‘‘(III) provides training for health care
professionals across the continuum of care
about the goals and use of orders for life sus21
taining treatment; and
‘‘(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake23
holders includes representatives from emergency
medical services, emergency department physi25
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa-

•HR 3200 IH
tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
agency responsible for senior services, state de3
partment of health, state hospital association,
home health association, state bar association,
and state hospice association.

So, the health care bill offers insurance for periodic revisions of living wills and end of life planning... and mandates that there are trained professionals available to explain why it's good to have a living will. And then, get this, it goes on to require that living wills are verified and honored. Holy fucking Jesus!

Page 429: Advanced care planning consult will be used to dictate treatment as patients' health deteriorates. This can include an order for end-of-life plans. The order will be from the government.

Page 429 requires that an order for "life sustaining treatment" be signed by a physician so that it can "stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care..."

And then, it goes on to say that this life sustaining order must "effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual"

Sorry, Wes... you had a good run at it... you made an entertaining, if not almost kinda close to being somewhat reasonable in a really abstract kinda way. But then, of course, you gagged on a giant cock made of bullshit and dryer lint.
 
or.....
Or maybe a better title for this diary would be "Ouch, teh Stupid...it Hurts!"
I think this may be a key point in Sarah Palin's 'research'
From an Investor's Business Daily editorial 10 days ago:
People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.
​
<!-- polls come after this -->
Ahem...I present to you Stephen Hawking's Biography:
Stephen Hawking was born to Mr. Frank Hawking, a research biologist, and Mrs. Isobel Hawking, a political activist... Though Hawking's parents were living in North London, they moved to Oxford while Isobel was pregnant with Stephen...
​
Oxford is in the U.K.
But wait, there's more:
After Stephen was born, the family moved back to London
​
Still in the U.K.
Want more?
After receiving his B.A. degree at Oxford University in 1962, he stayed to study astronomy.
​
He "stayed". That means he is still in the U.K.
As for having "no chance"
Awards and honours
* 1975 Eddington Medal
* 1976 Hughes Medal of the Royal Society
* 1979 Albert Einstein Medal
* 1982 Order of the British Empire (Commander)
* 1985 Gold Medal of the Royal Astronomical Society
* 1986 Member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences
* 1988 Wolf Prize in Physics
* 1989 Prince of Asturias Awards in Concord
* 1989 Companion of Honour
* 1999 Julius Edgar Lilienfeld Prize of the American Physical Society[44]
* 2003 Michelson Morley Award of Case Western Reserve University
* 2006 Copley Medal of the Royal Society[45]
* 2008 Fonseca Price of the University of Santiago de Compostela[46]
* 2009 Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian honor in the United States[47]
​
He currently still resides in the U.K. and is being treated through Addenbrooke's Hospital at Cambridge which is one of the hubs for Britain's NHS.
It's moments like these that make me want to paraphrase Jon Lovitz as Michael Dukakis.
"I can't believe we are losing to these guys."
Pee Ess...I don't necessarily believe we are losing the fight. It just feels that way sometimes.
PeePee Ess...Nomination for Worst Person's tonight maybe?
Update [2009-8-10 15:25:56 by MLDB]:Wait...maybe someone has commented on this already, but the question must be asked. Is he entitled to British NHS benefits? Does Stephen Hawking have a birth certificate to verify he <del>still lives</del> was born in the U.K.?
 
CTobias said:
Not only that, but the majority of people who are uninsured (about 50 million), choose to be that way. There are actually only about five million people who just can't get insurance.
Click to expand...
Yah, but I'm sure the majority of those that choose to go uninsured do so because insurance is too expensive and they'd rather risk it than pay. I'd hate to think there are idiots out there who dont want coverage and have no good reason for their decision.
 
Last edited:
BIGBOW said:
Yah, but I'm sure the majority of those that choose to go uninsured do so because insurance is too expensive and they'd rather risk it than pay. I'd hate to think there are idiots out there who dont want coverage and have no good reason for their decision.
Click to expand...

I find that the ones who couldn't care less about benefits that are offered are the young (i.e. invincible) men just starting out. They never worry about going to a doctor or emergency rooms. Once the girlfriend gets knocked up, though, then they are FULL of questions.
 
5 Minutes for Rebuttal

jlajoie said:
And another gagger bites the dust!

This pile of steaming bullshit was posted in the comments by the illustrious Wes earlier today. I shall dismantle it piece, by bullshitty piece.

Cylenschmuck…Cold hard facts: Page 29. The bill admits on page 29 that your health care will be rationed.

Cy took care of this one.So you have no response to this one. Silence is golden

Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get.

Yes! A "public/private" committee will be formed to determine the range of services offered. Without a central planning committee, I guess we'd be covering... what, exactly? If you are going to offer coverage, you kinda have to define what you are covering. Otherwise, I could set up my "Ellipses' Fart Therapy Clinic" and collect gubbermint dollas.
A central planning committee could decide that it is too expensive for you to get that new cancer drug and oh by the way we have examples of this very action taking place in the U.K. already. So if you are happy with that than by all means sign up for Gov healthcare


Page 58: Every person will be issued a national ID health card.

Wow, so they are going to do EXACTLY WHAT PRIVATE INSURERS DO NOW? Fuck you, batman! Hey Batman Dont forget that what goes with that ID card is access by the government to all your health records. You know the ones that by law now are to be made private. Why does the Government need to see my health records?
Page 59: The federal government will have direct real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

Well, let's see what it ACTUALLY says?
"The standards under this section shall be developed, adopted and enforced so as to… (C) enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with the related health care payment and remittance advice"

So, I can pay for services rendered electronically? The same way I pay my water bill, my car insurance, my Amex bill, my student loans, my mortgage, my gas bill, my electric bill, my car payments, and every other fucking expense that I have? Are these people from the fucking future?Well lets clarify that just a bit more. This is not voluntary. Its mandatory. Since when does the government mandate access to my money. It is my money isnt it or does it belong to the collective. Resistance is futile

Page 239: The bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid, meaning there will be Medicaid cuts.

Medicaid will be folded into the public option. This will be done by phasing out physician services in order to compute costs from 2011 onward. Basically, the only honest thing in this statement is that it's on page 239... but it runs over to page 240, so even that is bullshit.

Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment. Government dictates how your life ends. The Washington Post read the section, Section 1233 and came to the same disturbing conclusion:
“Ideally, the delicate decisions about how to manage life's end would be made in a setting that is neutral in both appearance and fact. Yes, it's good to have a doctor's perspective. But Section 1233 goes beyond facilitating doctor input to preferring it. Indeed, the measure would have an interested party -- the government -- recruit doctors to sell the elderly on living wills, hospice care and their associated providers, professions and organizations. You don't have to be a right-wing wacko to question that approach.”

The relevant part of this actually starts on page 426:
‘‘(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of
orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar
orders, which shall include—
‘‘(I) the reasons why the development of
such an order is beneficial to the individual and
the individual’s family and the reasons why
such an order should be updated periodically as
the health of the individual changes;"

which goes onto say:

‘‘(II) the information needed for an indi10
vidual or legal surrogate to make informed deci11
sions regarding the completion of such an
order; and
‘‘(III) the identification of resources that
an individual may use to determine the require15
ments of the State in which such individual re16
sides so that the treatment wishes of that indi17
vidual will be carried out if the individual is un18
able to communicate those wishes, including re19
quirements regarding the designation of a sur20
rogate decisionmaker (also known as a health
care proxy).
‘‘(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement
for explanations under clause (i) to consultations
furnished in a State—

•HR 3200 IH
‘‘(I) in which all legal barriers have been
addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining
treatment to constitute a set of medical orders
respected across all care settings; and
‘‘(II) that has in effect a program for or6
ders for life sustaining treatment described in
clause (iii).
‘‘(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
treatment for a States described in this clause is a
program that—
‘‘(I) ensures such orders are standardized
and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;
‘‘(II) distributes or makes accessible such
orders to physicians and other health profes15
sionals that (acting within the scope of the pro16
fessional’s authority under State law) may sign
orders for life sustaining treatment;
‘‘(III) provides training for health care
professionals across the continuum of care
about the goals and use of orders for life sus21
taining treatment; and
‘‘(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake23
holders includes representatives from emergency
medical services, emergency department physi25
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa-

•HR 3200 IH
tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
agency responsible for senior services, state de3
partment of health, state hospital association,
home health association, state bar association,
and state hospice association.

So, the health care bill offers insurance for periodic revisions of living wills and end of life planning... and mandates that there are trained professionals available to explain why it's good to have a living will. And then, get this, it goes on to require that living wills are verified and honored. Holy fucking Jesus!

Page 429: Advanced care planning consult will be used to dictate treatment as patients' health deteriorates. This can include an order for end-of-life plans. The order will be from the government.

Page 429 requires that an order for "life sustaining treatment" be signed by a physician so that it can "stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care..."

And then, it goes on to say that this life sustaining order must "effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual"Well not exactly. Today when you go to the doctor or hospital with your elderly mom or dad you are given information on living wills and advanced directives. It is a difficult discussion to have but you have it because they are your parents and you want them to be prepared for all possibilities. I am personally going thru this right now with both my mother and father. See the difference is that it is something the family and the patient discuss and decide on....not the government. Government has no business in this decision process. To suggest that they are going to provide resources is ridiculous. The resources already exist and by law you are provided this information when you enter the hospital. The concept that yet another government mandate will be helpful in this process is so false its not even funny

Sorry, Wes... you had a good run at it... you made an entertaining, if not almost kinda close to being somewhat reasonable in a really abstract kinda way. But then, of course, you gagged on a giant cock made of bullshit and dryer lint.
Click to expand...

Not covered in this post. The government shall levy a 2.5% on all individuals deemed not to have adequate coverage(Description of adequate coverage not provided). How will this tax be imposed...perhaps through government access to your bank account!!!! As stated in my previous post there are folks that believe this bill will provide you healthcare as an option...Its not an option...you must get healthcare..why...because the government has mandated it.

Other interesting piecess in this legislation. Currently the law provides for federal funding of abortions only in the cases of rape/incest or harm to the mother. With this legislation all these barriers are removed. Compromise measures written on this point have not made it through comittee. In short the government (your tax dollars will pay for abortions in all cases as it is currently written).

Last but not least. Last Friday the CBO (non-partisan) released a study on the cost/benefits of preventive care as considered in this legislation. It found that under the current bill that not only will no cost savings be found but costs will rise primarily due to the... wait for it...increased requirements for well care visits and mutliplying factor of these visits across the larger population. No surprise that the whitehouse asked the chief of the CBO to come to a meeting with the president last week.

OP-ED written by House Speaker Pelosi and Sen Majority Leader Reid. Those who oppose this legislation are unamerican. Now back in the Bush administration there were similar statements made about folks that opposed the war. Is it not the right of americans to voice their dissent on any topic without having their government leaders call them un-american
 
BIGBOW said:
Yah, but I'm sure the majority of those that choose to go uninsured do so because insurance is too expensive and they'd rather risk it than pay. I'd hate to think there are idiots out there who dont want coverage and have no good reason for their decision.
Click to expand...

Got it...you are basically an idiot if you dont want health insurance. Tell me what are the statistics of folks in their 20s having serious illness or death and the relative impact on our economy. Anyone have that information. I ask because it might be helpful in framing the debate. I mean if the aggregated cost is something like 1/100th of one percent than you might want to rethink the statement. Especially since the cost to insure those folks is clearly going to be higher than the aggregated costs mentioned above. Aside from the age demographics perhaps looking at the financial demographics of those who will be provided subsidies is more pertinent. As currently written, anyone earning up to 80K will qualify. Folks I had health insurance when I was in my late teens through my part time job where I earned a whopping 12k a year. I recently checked with a friend I used to work with at that job who is still there. They still offer health insurance for anyone who works 20 plus hours a week.
Life aint a set of guarantees or promises. Its a set of opportunities should you choose to work for them. When you hand over things like free healthcare or education or any entitlement you basically provide a disincentive for hard work. That is ultimately the undoing of a country...take a look at France:)
 
Just close your eyes for a second and imagine the outrage from Americans if George Bush tried this...They would be screeming impeachment!

Emmett
 
Is there anything in there about all those illegal people here.. do they get free everything like they have been????

Where is that second amendment guy.. everyone get you're gun and lets go hunting illegal's.

Saving tax dollars with every bullet fired.

Hummm... who will cut my grass this week if that happens? Carry those bricks up that ladder? Wash my own car.. forgetaboutit...

Ahhh... never mind.

Is it football season yet?
 
Let's remember what opposition to health care reform is really about, right from one of the horses' mouth:

DeMint riled up his base this week with the following threat about Obama's health care plan, "If we're able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him."

This is all one big temper tantrum about Nov. 4.

 
Green Highlander said:
Just close your eyes for a second and imagine the outrage from Americans if George Bush tried this...They would be screeming impeachment!

Emmett
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There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee —uhhh... huh huh... huh huh... that says, fool me once, shame on —uhhh... huh huh... huh huh... shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

:) He was too dumb to be impreached! People felt sorry for him.
 
Morgan said:
Let's remember what opposition to health care reform is really about, right from one of the horses' mouth:

DeMint riled up his base this week with the following threat about Obama's health care plan, "If we're able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him."

This is all one big temper tantrum about Nov. 4.
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Well lets go straight to the other end of the horse and see what our beloved president stated in 2003. He stated "I am for a single payer system. It may take 10 or 15 years but ultimately I want to see the end of the private insurance companies". Flash forward to this week. "He states he isnt interested in provided government run healthcare". That appears to be a contradictory statement. I wonder which one he really meant:) You think this is about a congressman or a president. Its about the our current and future fiscal health and there are a lot of folks who are concerned about the direction.
 
Morgan said:
Let's remember what opposition to health care reform is really about, right from one of the horses' mouth:

DeMint riled up his base this week with the following threat about Obama's health care plan, "If we're able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him."

This is all one big temper tantrum about Nov. 4.
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Yeah sure, that's all it is.:crap:
 
Macfly, it was DeMint's words, not mine.

By the way, conservative-ish columnist Ross Douthat has an interesting take in today's NY Times.
 
Morgan said:
Macfly, it was DeMint's words, not mine.

By the way, conservative-ish columnist Ross Douthat has an interesting take in today's NY Times.
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Never said it was your words Morgan. I am sure the Sen DeMints said what he said. I really dont care about the words of a single senator. Fact is people are concerned about the overall direction and debt our country is taking on. Its hypocrisy for anyone to suggest we can pay for a massive expansion of the governement for healthcare (87 new departments and 150K added government employees) while slashing medicare and making this revenue neutral. Sorry that doesnt compute. Remember like social security this is not an insurance program. This is tax revenue the government will take and abuse. Why do you think these programs are in such dire straits today. Its positioned as a successful program but it is filled with Fraud and waste and will be bankrupt probably ahead of social security. How do these programs go bankrupt. Because while they are positioned as insurance programs they are anything but. Our government has taken the taxes paid into these programs and issued IOUs back. If in fact they had been left alone and allowed to be run like an insurance program we would not be having this conversation right now. When these IOUs come do what do you think happens. Your benefits get cut, you pay more in taxes, and government gets more money to repeat the cycle. You need to understand that this is not about providing healthcare to all americans ( a noble idea even though its not the job of our government or taxpayers to provide this). Its about government inserting itself into more and more aspects of your life and gaining more control. This is exactly the opposite of what our founders intended when our Constitution was written. We are guaranteed life, liberty and the pursuit of happyness. We are not guaranteed a job, a car, and healthcare. If government would focus on the role provided them you would have a lot more money in your pocket and the ability to pursue that which makes you happy.
 
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What I still don't understand is why some people think this is a great idea. Granted those numbers are getting smaller by the day. I saw one video where some guy tried to explain why he wanted this new health reform. Basically he said he wanted other people to help pay for his health care. I THINK NOT. Pay for it yourself.
 
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