All this stuff about the government "gaining more control" is absurd, Black Helicopters conspiracy-theory nonsense. On some level you guys find it fun. This is serious business. And where the hell were you when George Bush was borrowing $800 billion from China for an unnecessary war and $1.3 trillion for tax cuts for rich people? Why weren't you hollering about the deficit then? Or wiretapping Americans without warrants? Why didn't anybody show up at Bush's events with loaded weapons?
Give us a try!
Welcome back to the new NEFF. Take a break from Twitter and Facebook. You don't go to Dicks for your fly fishing gear, you go to your local fly fishing store. Enjoy!
It just doesn't stop! This is very disturbing!!!!
- Thread starter CTobias
- Start date
Probably because many of the liberal folks that couldn't stand him are the same people that think law-abiding citizens shouldn't be allowed to have guns!
jlajoie
Can I commute to Missoula from here?
More likely because disagreeing with the Bush administration would have you branded with the scarlet letter of being unpatriotic or un-American.Probably because many of the liberal folks that couldn't stand him are the same people that think law-abiding citizens shouldn't be allowed to have guns!
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
Did you run this post by Pelosi first...?
CTobias
Professional BS'r
This is pennies compared to the twenty some odd TRILLION obama and his cronies have spent. With most of it going to foreign banks!! It's not a conspiracy theory when it's factual.
CTobias
Professional BS'r
UMMMM HELLO!!! The pot calling the kettle black. Isn't that what they are saying right now if you disagree with any issue that is being brought up. Health care reform, carbon tax, etc. I also believe they have stooped as low as saying that calling the president a socialist (when in actuality he is a fascist) is just another way of calling him the "n" word. Give me a break. Try another one.
jlajoie
Can I commute to Missoula from here?
Glen Beck doesn't count.
And no, I haven't heard any of my socialeftist friends say that....
And I love the term fascist...so vague, so overused.
Following World War II, the word fascist has become a slur throughout the political spectrum. In contemporary political discourse, some adherents of political ideologies on both the left and right wings of the political spectrum associate fascism with their political enemies, or define it as the opposite of their own views. Some argue that the term fascist has become hopelessly vague over the years and that it is now little more than a pejorative epithet. George Orwell wrote in 1944:
The word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else... almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. – George Orwell, What is Fascism?. 1944.<sup id="cite_ref-orwell1944_49-0" class="reference">[50]</sup>
Richard Griffiths argued in 2005 that the term fascism is the "most misused, and over-used word of our times".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist#cite_note-intelligentguide-22
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Everyone that paid taxes got a tax break from George Bush. If you make more money you get more money back.
As for borrowing money from China, you have to go back before Bush to engage any and every administration that allowed our country to go from a lender to a debtor. It is serious business and if your argument is moral equivalency sorry thats not a good enough argument. In addition defense of the nation is provided for in our constitutions. Providing healthcare to all citizens is not. If you belive it should be done than lobby the state you live in to provide it. Its going very well in states like Mass. and Oregon. You can move their if you like. In Oregon a woman was denied late stage cancer medication that was shown to extend her life. A pharmacutical company found out about it and provided the medicaiton free of charge.
I have 2 parents in the hospital at the moment. Think the government doesnt control what you can and cant receive...Think again. I live it everyday. You are seriously kidding if you believe this is affordable, if you believe this will not lead to more governemnt control (see previous posts), If you believe that our current 1.3 trillion deficit accumulated in 8 months and heading to 2 trillion can withstand a huge increase with healthcare.
You would provide access to healthcare for all americans at the cost of bankrupting our country. Doesnt sound like a good proposition. There are plenty of things that could be done to reform the system and cut costs. If there was 500 billion in waste that could be cut from medicare and still deliver the same services why do you think no one has proposed it before. Congress would be heroic if they could have done it.
Maybe you dont care and its healthcare at any cost. Thats at least an honest view. To suggest the right is telling lies while the left cloaks themselves in a veil of honesty and morality is pure fiction.
CTobias
Professional BS'r
fascism - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>
Top House Democrats Call Town Hall Disruptions 'Un-American' - Political Punch
In an oped in USA Today titled “‘Un-American’ attacks can’t derail health care debate,” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., and House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., attack those who’ve been raucously protesting health care reform at town hall meetings.
“These disruptions are occurring because opponents are afraid not just of differing views — but of the facts themselves,” the write. “Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American. Drowning out the facts is how we failed at this task for decades.”
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
And yet hundreds of thousands of folks protested, burned his image in effigy, called him a murderer, broke in to congressional hearings and disrupted them, made a movie about him being shot, mocked him on tv and the movies, and on and on and on. Yet when folks show up to a town hall meeting to hold their congressman accountable its clearly a right wing drummed up attempt and un-america and not their consitutional right to do so.
Hillary Clinton when she was running for president told a story about a woman who was denied access to a hospital when she was about to give birth because she didnt have healtchare. Later the baby was stillborn. Of course this was because she didnt have universal healthcare. Except the story was not true. The woman in fact did have healtchare and could have given birth in the hospital. So it seems the folks on the left are just as capable of telling lies and distorting the truth and yet you heard nothing on this from the media.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Spoken like someone who hasnt had to deal with Medicare
CTobias
Professional BS'r
Bush Deficit vs. Obama Deficit in Pictures
-
Posted March 24th, 2009 at 10.20am in Ongoing Priorities.
President Barack Obama has repeatedly claimed that his budget would cut the deficit by half by the end of his term. But as Heritage analyst Brian Riedl has pointed out, given that Obama has already helped quadruple the deficit with his stimulus package, pledging to halve it by 2013 is hardly ambitious. The Washington Post has a great graphic which helps put President Obama’s budget deficits in context of President Bush’s.
What’s driving Obama’s unprecedented massive deficits? Spending. Riedl details:
- President Bush expanded the federal budget by a historic $700 billion through 2008. President Obama would add another $1 trillion.
- President Bush began a string of expensive financial bailouts. President Obama is accelerating that course.
- President Bush created a Medicare drug entitlement that will cost an estimated $800 billion in its first decade. President Obama has proposed a $634 billion down payment on a new government health care fund.
- President Bush increased federal education spending 58 percent faster than inflation. President Obama would double it.
- President Bush became the first President to spend 3 percent of GDP on federal antipoverty programs. President Obama has already increased this spending by 20 percent.
- President Bush tilted the income tax burden more toward upper-income taxpayers. President Obama would continue that trend.
- President Bush presided over a $2.5 trillion increase in the public debt through 2008. Setting aside 2009 (for which Presidents Bush and Obama share responsibility for an additional $2.6 trillion in public debt), President Obama’s budget would add $4.9 trillion in public debt from the beginning of 2010 through 2016.
CLARIFICATION: Of course, this Washington Post graphic does not perfectly delineate budget surpluses and deficits by administration. President Bush took office in January 2001, and therefore played a lead role in crafting the FY 2002-2008 budgets. Presidents Bush and Obama share responsibility for the FY 2009 budget deficit that overlaps their administrations, before President Obama assumes full budgetary responsibility beginning in FY 2010. Overall, President Obama’s budget would add twice as much debt as President Bush over the same number of years.
jlajoie
Can I commute to Missoula from here?
</early>These tactics have included hanging in effigy one Democratic member of Congress in Maryland and protesters holding a sign displaying a tombstone with the name of another congressman in Texas, where protesters also shouted 'Just say no!'' drowning out those who wanted to hold a substantive discussion."
And isn't that what America is all about? being able to argue your side of an issue without being drowned out and not having your say?
Full Pelosi Quote:
These disruptions are occurring because opponents are afraid not just of differing views — but of the facts themselves. Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American. Drowning out the facts is how we failed at this task for decades," Pelosi and Hoyer write. "The dialogue between elected representatives and constituents is at the heart of our democracy and plays an integral role in assuring that the legislation we write reflects the genuine needs and concerns of the people we represent."
If I went to a town hall meeting and had a question for my elected representative, but was not able to ask it because I was being drowned out by a bunch of people yelling, I would take out my loaded legal handgun and make my own statement.
My only point, CT, is that sound bytes and quote editing can certainly make things look a lot worse than what was actually said. I watched it happen with Carter, Reagan, Clinton , both Bushes, and Obama. It isn't going to stop, and there is no way to truly tell what is said, unless you hear it with your own ears.
<early instances="" of="" army="">
</early>
jlajoie
Can I commute to Missoula from here?
jlajoie
Can I commute to Missoula from here?
ANYTHING I hear on tv or radio is taken with a huge grain of salt. Anybody that takes a media outlet at its word is, in my opinion, either an idiot, or worse, plain stupid. The media hasn't actually reported unspun news in decades.
jlajoie
Can I commute to Missoula from here?
[FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Any ideas when these "God-given" rights of mine disappeared?
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations.
FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.
FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.
RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.
FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.
RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.
RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.
[/FONT]
FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.
FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.
RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.
FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.
RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.
RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.
[/FONT]
CTobias
Professional BS'r
</EARLY> I would take out my loaded legal handgun and make my own statement.
My only point, CT, is that sound bytes and quote editing can certainly make things look a lot worse than what was actually said. I watched it happen with Carter, Reagan, Clinton , both Bushes, and Obama. It isn't going to stop, and there is no way to truly tell what is said, unless you hear it with your own ears.
<EARLY army="" of="" instances="">
</EARLY>
Last I checked, only police officers were alowed to carry in NYC......
You are right, I was mistaken no one on the left has said that protesting the health care reform was un-American. Oops, what am I apologizing for, they have said it, and apologized for it.
UPDATE: Lincoln retracts description of health care protests as ‘un-American’|Arkansas News
A few hours later, Lincoln issued the following statement: “Although I do believe that some of these protesters are disrespectful of other citizens in the audience who truly want to ask questions about health care, I shouldn’t have used the term ‘un-American.’ I support the right of every Arkansan to speak out and have their voices heard. I would just ask that we all continue to work in a constructive way to rebuild our economy and fine-tune out health care system so it works for all of us.”
jlajoie
Can I commute to Missoula from here?
Well, not an apology, but one hell of a step for any politician to admit they are wrong!
Good on him!
And, any private citizen can apply for and get a weapons license in NYC. It is extremely, extremely difficult to get a concealed permit, but it can be done. It certainly helps if you are involved with any portion of the judicial branch(judge, lawyer((Hear that GONZO!!!)) cop, etc.), or a small business owner that can prove you routinely handle large sums of cash for bank deposits, etc.
Also, I don't know about your doctor, but I know my GP has stopped taking any insurance, as it is cost-prohibitive for them to do so. I also know I am not alone in this boat. Even if my nurse was as ugly as the one in your image, I'd be happy to not have to pay out of pocket, cause I definitely can't afford that!
Last edited:
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Nothing in my post is part of a sound byte or spun from radio. If you were alive during the last decade you saw exactly what I saw happen against the bush administration. Its a comparative between actions the left took against the president and actions the right have taken againt the Obama Administration. The actions are similar in many respects.
The post about Mrs Clinton is 100% accurate. You can fact check it yourself. You just posted tonight about the burning of a congressman in effigy. I say that while I may not agree with yelling at townhall meetings or burninng folks in effigy its clearly within their rights to do so. Sometimes your first amendment rights are demonstrated in the extreme. Similarly It was the right of folks on the left to do the same thing during the bush administration. I did not agree with it but its legal as long as they are not harming others in the process.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
I agree with all of this. Its not what we were founded on.
jlajoie
Can I commute to Missoula from here?
I wasn't saying that anything in your post was.... I was merely stated an opinion I have on media, be it "liberal" or "leftist" or "rightist" or "conservative".:dogbark: <--Bluedog?
jlajoie
Can I commute to Missoula from here?
Yikes! A Foundationist! :hubbahubba:
CTobias
Professional BS'r
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
eddavidson9
how's that for a slice of fried gold
how did you hear about it? a little birdie?
everybody lies. it just seems conservative pundits have fewer qualms about it than even politicians.
mac, while i dont agree that this is the government explicitly seeking more control, i do think your points about the mismanagement of the funds are fair. lets face it, the federal government is hit and miss at best when it comes to these types of programs. i still think the potential benefits outweigh the potential costs.
WHO health care ranking of 37th
44th in life-expectancy (excluding the EU composite)
Highest per-capita health care yearly expenditures, at more than double that of the WHO highest-ranked country (yes...France)
We can do better.
The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
Life Expectancy for Countries — Infoplease.com
Per Capita Health Expenditures by Country, 2007 — Infoplease.com