How long should we expect flows below 200 on the WB?

[flyI4]

I understand that with the FFMP the flows are kept low early season and then raised to 260 june 1st ,but what happened to the minimum 225 or whatever it was at hale eddy? Im not an expert when it comes to the flow plans up there, but this is just terrible seeing it this low for a few days now. Not to mention with this flow the mainstem will be cooking by the end of may. Under what situations does the river get that 700-1000 flow that occasionaly pops up every once in a while during the season? Is that only when the target is below the limit at montague, and right now the river down there is high enough cause of tribs downstream

Either way I almost prefered the days when it was up and down from day to day. Although the inconsistent flows were frustrating, atleast you had days when you hit the flow right and the river looked good. Consistent ,but low most times like its been now for a bout a year has been a tough adjustment. I fully understand its an uphill battle though and by no means am going to throw blame at people like jim serio who fight hard for the river day in and day out...just frustrating to see it so low this early in the season thats all

 

[dcabarle]

Your question belongs on the never ending story forum!

The other night (Friday) I had the honor of being the official FUDR One Bug photographer. It was quite an event. You just can't imagine the FUDR support that many of us here don't know about. The donations were generous and the work that all of the people put into creating masterpieces for the auction was stunning. There were people from all walks of life present, and then there was me.

I don't think the FUDR is as vocal as they should be. It seems as if Jim Serio is a bit more public, therefore getting much credit that I don't feel is deserved. Don't get me wrong, Jim is a pleasant guy and I like him. His heart is in the right place but I'm sorry to say that he hasn't done anything positive for the flows. I know he works hard, but at this point of the game, what has he accomplished? Have you seen the DRF website? It's non-existent. It's possible that Jim is working just as hard on the river conditions, but I feel he's working against the current at this point.

While the FUDR is out generating awareness and having events like the "One Bug" contest, the DRF appears to be a 1 man "team" generating ZIPPO. I only wish it was the FUDR trying to get the word out into the public channels. They simply need to be more vocal and publish newsletters to make people aware of the progress that's being made as well as some of the roadblocks they might encounter along the way.

So that's all I have to say about that!

 

[Future Fanatic]

They simply need to be more vocal and publish newsletters to make people aware of the progress that's being made as long as some of the roadblocks they might encounter along the way.

So that's all I have to say about that!

Do you have THAT short of a memory as to some of their past attempts at "communicating" to the public?

AND that's all I have to say about that!

 

[dcabarle]

Do you have THAT short of a memory as to some of their past attempts at "communicating" to the public?

AND that's all I have to say about that!

Of course I do!!! The current FUDR does have a new president. I'm not best buddies with the guy but he does appear to be very level headed, very friendly, and very dedicated. He comes off as a very positive person. If you have some questions, maybe I can shoot him an email and ask. I can't promise anybody anything but I can try. Also, let's keep in mind that Larry is no longer around and the others have not posted in quite some time.

I know that quite often you pose very legitimate questions that go unanswered or you're given the ole' run around. I just don't think you're asking the questions to the right people. I know... I know... than why are the wrong people posting something they know little about in the public forum. Good question. I still feel that after seeing what went on Friday night, the FUDR is a very dedicated bunch of people who would really like to see a positive spin on the currnet flow situation. Will they be able to accomplish anything? I suppose anything is possible, even turning the valve off completely just because somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

 

[AKSkim]

I believe that both groups should come under one leader who shall exercise monarchal powers over the Delaware River and surrounding territories.

That way I shall have the powers to set flow rates, the time of year the hatches shall occur, which rivers that drift boats shall be banned from, removal of settlements along the banks to keep the river pleasing to the eye, to remove all existing power lines and dams from my kingdom, provide more free access points to the river along with drift boat ramps, and wheel chair access. Allow rain only after sun down

All this while reducing the tax burden, raise the medium income level by 72%, create more fly shops in the villages.

Yes, they need me as their sovereign.

King Skim XXIII





Vote now and often.

 

[Big_Spinner]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the ringing endorsement Dennis.

Here are answers to your questions FlyI,

The minimum flow targets, 225 at Hale Eddy, were part of Revision 7, and have been eliminated. They were deemed difficult to manage and would be mostly not needed as the minimum releases were increased in the summer to 260 which exceeded the 225 target. This dry spring and low minimum release in April has shown yet again that Mother Nature can throw a new spin on things.

Rain is expected tomorrow, so there should be some relief in terms of flow and temperatures.

On Friday the constant minimum releases will be increased. The release on the West Branch goes from 110 to 190. The minimum increases again on May 20th to 240 cfs.

You are correct about Montague releases. Presently the natural flow at Montague is about 3000 cfs. The Montague target is 1750 cfs. So there will not be additional releases to help meet the Montague target as it is being met naturally. If there is no more rain for another 10-14 days, Montague released will be needed.

We are experiencing a dry spring and it would be unusual to see Montague Releases this early, but it has happened in the past.

Although FFMP release numbers are not adequate or near ideal, I do beleive that the more "Flexible" nature of th FFMP will benefit the river moving forward. There are already changes being discussed to eliminate the problems we experienced this April. Primarily the FFMP created yo-yo flows due to high spill mitigation releases and the extremely low release of 110 when the reservoir is not spilling. There are also ongoing negotiations for changes to this summers release program as well as improvements to the system long term.

Jim

 

[AKSkim]

Thanks for the ringing endorsement Dennis.

Jim

Mr. J. Serio:

You need help.

My card.





ARTHUR K. SKIM PUBLIC AFFAIRS, LTD.




Our motto; Follow Me and Do As I Say or We Crush Heads

 

[dcabarle]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the ringing endorsement Dennis.

Sorry Jim... I don't doubt that you're working hard to do what you think is right, I do doubt the work you're doing though. I just can't see how todays flow at 186 (Hale Eddy) is benefitting anything or anyone. Todays air temp is going to reach 90 degrees. 186 at Hale Eddy doesn't give any refuge to the trout.

Maybe you can answer this? What exactly is the difference between what you're doing vs. what the FUDR is doing? I know the goal is the same or similar.

Rain is expected tomorrow, so there should be some relief in terms of flow and temperatures.

Tomorrow is too late. We need water yesteryear. Keeping in mind that I understand the fish will survive and they've been going through this for centries... We as fishermen of course look at the trout conservation aspect for our enjoyment of fishing within ideal trout conditions.

On Friday the constant minimum releases will be increased. The release on the West Branch goes from 110 to 190. The minimum increases again on May 20th to 240 cfs.

I'm sure I could look this up but you probably have it already, so I'll just ask. Over the past X amount of years, what has the flow been for this time period?

You are correct about Montague releases. Presently the natural flow at ontague is about 3000 cfs. The Montague target is 1750 cfs.

True but how many days last year has this been disregarded?

Although FFMP release numbers are not adequate or near ideal

But you supported this. Why support something that's not adequate or ideal?

I do beleive that the more "Flexible" nature of the FFMP will benefit the river moving forward.

When do we start moving forward? It would appear that we're running backwards.

There are already changes being discussed to eliminate the problems we experienced this April.

There are always talks. Talk talk talk talk talk. I just talked to my wife on the phone. She didn't have much to say about this.

Primarily the FFMP created yo-yo

Let Duncan control the yo-yo's.

 

[Big_Spinner]

Sorry Jim... I don't doubt that you're working hard to do what you think is right, I do doubt the work you're doing though. I just can't see how todays flow at 186 (Hale Eddy) is benefitting anything or anyone. Todays air temp is going to reach 90 degrees. 186 at Hale Eddy doesn't give any refuge to the trout.

Dennis, you do not know the work that I do. I am pretty sure we all agree that the flows now are not good for the river.

Maybe you can answer this? What exactly is the difference between what you're doing vs. what the FUDR is doing? I know the goal is the same or similar.
We all have the same goal. My roll has changed over the years. I started the DRF to raise awareness of the problems within the public sector and the decision makers. We also had a goal to push for a better system of managing the rivers and releases. The DRF accomplished many things. For te record, the DRF has been officially retired. I now concentrate on evaluating possible solutions to the many faceted problem set associated with the system. FUDR is doing a great job of continuing to raise awareness and keep issues in the public eye and on the decision makers desks. The one bug was a great success and I can't wait to see the money they raised go into helping Sands Creek and Cadosia Creek here in Hancock. Both streams are in need of major work. I do have a concern with FUDR's association with the flood groups that do not really care about the fishery and want the reservoirs lowered too far and without merit. But, I hope that I can work with FUDR in the future to craft supportable and acceptable solutions for the river.

Quote:
Rain is expected tomorrow, so there should be some relief in terms of flow and temperatures.

Tomorrow is too late. We need water yesteryear. Keeping in mind that I understand the fish will survive and they've been going through this for centries... We as fishermen of course look at the trout conservation aspect for our enjoyment of fishing within ideal trout conditions.

Not something any of us do not already know. The whole region needs water.

Quote:
On Friday the constant minimum releases will be increased. The release on the West Branch goes from 110 to 190. The minimum increases again on May 20th to 240 cfs.

I'm sure I could look this up but you probably have it already, so I'll just ask. Over the past X amount of years, what has the flow been for this time period?

Previous to Revision 7 the minimum release from Cannonsville was 45 cfs from August 16th until June 15th the following year. For the other two months the release was 325 cfs. So at this time of year the release would have been 45 instead of 110. Rev 7 instituted the minimum flow at Hale Eddy of 225, so today under Rev 7 the release would be about 140 cfs to bring Hale Eddy up to 225.

Quote:
You are correct about Montague releases. Presently the natural flow at ontague is about 3000 cfs. The Montague target is 1750 cfs.

True but how many days last year has this been disregarded?

None, zero. The Montague Target is one of the Delaware Issues that gets maximum attention from the rivermaster and they recalculate estimates for release everyday and make the changes needed.
Quote:
Although FFMP release numbers are not adequate or near ideal

But you supported this. Why support something that's not adequate or ideal?

The FFMP format is such a huge change for the good and in a positive direction from previous programs that it merits support. Improvements will be much easier to accomplish within the FFMP format. I supported FFMP, as many others did, with that in mind. Take this step forward and continue to work for improvements.

Quote:
I do beleive that the more "Flexible" nature of the FFMP will benefit the river moving forward.

When do we start moving forward? It would appear that we're running backwards.

Certainly everytime there is a problem, it appears to be a step back, but that is not always the case.

Quote:
There are already changes being discussed to eliminate the problems we experienced this April.

There are always talks. Talk talk talk talk talk. I just talked to my wife on the phone. She didn't have much to say about this.

Maybe you need to learn how to listen!!

Quote:
Primarily the FFMP created yo-yo

Let Duncan control the yo-yo's.

There is already a fix for this problem on the table and it should be in place shortly. I understand, not in time for today or this April, but for next year, yes.

Anything else?

Jim

 

[boomer88]

AK - While I agree that we need someone to take control, I propose dictatorial rule vs. a pansy, tea-toting monarchy. As such, I nominate Hugo Chavez to nationalize all interests with respect to water rights along the entire Delaware River. He has already donated an island in the lower Delaware to the great state of NJ to create a bald eagle sanctuary. Given this environmental gesture, I feel comfortable that he would side with the fisherman and give the people the agua.

Nevertheless I think you'd make a good second in command given your preference for those Mexican swine flu beers.

Viva el Presidente!

Venezuela giving Delaware River island to New Jersey - The CNN Wire - CNN.com Blogs

 

[Ausable]

Jim,

I just looked at the FFMP plan and it appears that the release in the WB should be 225cfs versus 190 cfs on May 1st that you mention in your post. You also mention an increase to 260cfs on May 20th. Is this a change the the FFMP that I wasn't aware of?

Thanks

Ausable

 

[dcabarle]

Jim,

First... You are correct, I don't know the work you do. I didn't mean to insinuate that I do. I do know you're always working though.

I honestly don't get involved with the heavy politics of the flows. So from an outsiders point of view, who knows little about what you do but knows that you try to do alot, it doesn't seem like anything is getting done (from an outsiders point of view). I don't pretend to know anything about the FUDR or your business. I can only comment on what I visually see. It simply doesn't seem like anything is happening.

I was certainly not picking on you as a person and I am not looking to pick a war with you regarding something I don't know anything about. It would be foolish. I can only say that from an outsiders point of view, it doesn't look like anything has changed other than getting what appears to be less water.

 

[AKSkim]

AK - I think you'd make a good second in command

BoooooooMAHhhh.....

A little lesson here is warranted.

I chose to be a King due to the fact it is the second highest sovereign title, just after Emperor.

I don't like the sound of it when someone who speaks with a lisp, when they say EMPEROR.

Besides, being #2 just goes to show everyone that I am a humble man.

A very humble man.

King Arthur... (get it) K. Skim

 

[Big_Spinner]

Hi Ausable and Dennis,

Just here to inform.

Dennis,

There is more water for the system now than before. A few days of this bad situation is not a good thing and we are working to correct it. No battles, just trying to correct wrong information that you and probably others, believe to be true.

Ausable,

You are correct. there is an updated version of FFMP that you are not aware of. You can find the new version at the Office of the Delaware Rivermasters website. This updated version has split May into two periods. More water (240 cfs minimum) will be released later in the month.

Welcome to the Office of the Delaware River Master

The graphs indicate which level we will be in. Starting May 1st we will be in L2, unless the reservoir is spilling. If the reservoir is spilling, we will be in L1.

The table indicate what the release will be.

L2 release is a minimum of 190 cfs starting May 1st. Cannonsville.

Jim

 

[brachycentrus]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the ringing endorsement Dennis.

Here are answers to your questions FlyI,

The minimum flow targets, 225 at Hale Eddy, were part of Revision 7, and have been eliminated. They were deemed difficult to manage and would be mostly not needed as the minimum releases were increased in the summer to 260 which exceeded the 225 target. This dry spring and low minimum release in April has shown yet again that Mother Nature can throw a new spin on things.

Rain is expected tomorrow, so there should be some relief in terms of flow and temperatures.

On Friday the constant minimum releases will be increased. The release on the West Branch goes from 110 to 190. The minimum increases again on May 20th to 240 cfs.

You are correct about Montague releases. Presently the natural flow at Montague is about 3000 cfs. The Montague target is 1750 cfs. So there will not be additional releases to help meet the Montague target as it is being met naturally. If there is no more rain for another 10-14 days, Montague released will be needed.

We are experiencing a dry spring and it would be unusual to see Montague Releases this early, but it has happened in the past.

Although FFMP release numbers are not adequate or near ideal, I do beleive that the more "Flexible" nature of th FFMP will benefit the river moving forward. There are already changes being discussed to eliminate the problems we experienced this April. Primarily the FFMP created yo-yo flows due to high spill mitigation releases and the extremely low release of 110 when the reservoir is not spilling. There are also ongoing negotiations for changes to this summers release program as well as improvements to the system long term.

Jim

Then why has the release been lowered to 80 cfs today?

 

[Big_Spinner]

Hi Brachy,

You are correct. Now it is just being stupid. Following FFMP to the letter the transition is from L1 to L2 for the next two days and then May 1st the release goes to 190. It sure seems that maintaining at least the 110 should be a no-brainer.

Jim

 

[NJFred]

Jim,

Do you know why the releases from Cannonsville have been below the numbers in the most recent agreement (you stated these earlier in the thread)? (I"m looking at the Stilesville gauge)?

Prior to the end of April they were 90CFS vs the 110 CFS which I thought was supposed to be the minimum. Since May 1st they were raised to 165CFS... Not the minimum of 190CFS??

Is the gauge faulty or are they not doing what they said they would do?

 

[Big_Spinner]

Hi Fred,

The releases were following the exact letter of the FFMP.

In April, when the reservoir storage is high enough, we are in L1. The release in April while in L1 is L1c = 110 cfs.

The last few days of April the release actually dropped into L2. L2 in April is 80 cfs.

The gauges or NYC have been incorrect the last few days. I now see the gauge reads 190 cfs, but the level has not changed.

If you look at the change in release, it does look like it was increased the proper amount.

I am still not sure if the release actually did drop to 90 or if it was a gauge adjustment. It certainly makes one nervous when the numbers are bouncing around and we have no way of confirming the release.

I should find out at the DRBC meeting on Wednesday. Hope to see some of you there.

Jim

 

[NJFred]

Jim,

Thanks for the reply. Indeed Stilesville was reading 165CFS the other day but now the chart, even the historical reading, is different. It's now showing the full 190CFS. I guess it was a gauge issue???