WB Flow drop

[flyI4]

Anyone been following the flows on the west branch the past week. The river went from being over 1000 cfs for nearly a month to only 170cfs overnight and during prime time spawning season for the browns up there. I realize the water was artificially high this fall because of low flows downstream, but was it beyond reasonable to gradually scale back flows over a 3-5 day period to allow the fish to move to low water lies instead of leaving them on the rocks?(Instead they did it all in 12 hrs on October 16th) The response is the typical yawn at this point and fuck it- lets just send in our $20 and get drunk at the One Bug Next year in the name of conservation. Of course, FUDR hasn't issued a single comment on this drop nor has any other group. Between this terrible mgmt at a time critical to wild reproduction up there for 3-5 years in a row now and the amount of catch and kill fishing on the west branch this fall- this concludes a sad sad year up there for the system.

 

[golden beetle]

Anyone been following the flows on the west branch the past week. The river went from being over 1000 cfs for nearly a month to only 170cfs overnight and during prime time spawning season for the browns up there. I realize the water was artificially high this fall because of low flows downstream, but was it beyond reasonable to gradually scale back flows over a 3-5 day period to allow the fish to move to low water lies instead of leaving them on the rocks? The response is the typical yawn at this point and fuck it- lets just send in our $20 and get drunk at the One Bug Next year in the name of conservation. Of course, FUDR hasn't issued a single comment on this drop nor has any other group. Between this terrible mgmt at a time critical to wild reproduction up there for 3-5 years in a row now and the amount of catch and kill fishing on the west branch this fall- this concludes a sad sad year up there for the system.

I was there a few weeks back and the West Branch was chugging along, while the East was bone dry.

I am sure you are correct, but I am a bit surprised to hear this, as during the worst part of the recent drought I recall a release from Cannonsville, just over two weeks ago...

Have the recent rains made a difference?

I need to check USGS.

 

[golden beetle]

JC, flows at Hale Eddy are 385.

Not so bad.

I am guessing the recent rains didn't affect the West as much as the East or the Main, but the levels are not so bad right now, are they?

I know you know more than me.

I am just looking at Hale Eddy at the USGS website, and it looks to be within the norm for this time of year.

 

[flyI4]

The issue is the flows at stilesville. That is prime spawning habitat up there and the fish migrate up there to spawn this time of year. That is running at 170 cfs and went from 1000 cfs to 170 cfs in one day. That flow is terribly low up there and extends for the first 3-4 miles of river downstream until oquaga creek dumps in.
Rain is worthless to the West Branch in terms of sustained flows as it drains very quickly when the flow is largely supported by runoff/tribs. The release was 99% of the flow for months and then they cut the flows back to a 170cfs at stilesville immediately after the tribs began dumping any type of decent flow in to support a 250-300 flow target at hale eddy. My position is if you wanted to keep the flows artificially high this fall to curb the effects of drought downstream, then the least you could do is have some type of scaling system in place to gradually adjust flows back to the 250-300cfs range. I guess that was too much to ask for- they broke protocol by leaving flows artificially high- and then later will point to protocol as to why the flows were dropped so quickly (and right during spawning season) leaving spawning beds and eggs left out to dry as well a stressing the fish out during a vital period for them. Its a joke- and again not so much as a FB response from FUDR let alone a formal release or call for action to its members.

 

[comparadun]

fly14,

right on.

CDun

 

[golden beetle]

fly14,

right on.

CDun

You should float with JC next spring.

He can drop anchor and pick you up at Bard Parker.

 

[comparadun]

Where does Mr. Bard Parker live?....................Callicoon?

CDun

 

[TR]

Hello all.

Screenshot of USGS Stilesville over 50 years of data is below.

Current: 171 cfs
Median: 253 cfs
Mean: 642 cfs

As you can see, for the past 90 days until the rain event (2" +/- in Narrowsburg) of 10/18/14, Stilesville (Cannonsville) West Branch bottom release was way over the 50 year median and mean especially since the beginning of September due to very little rain in the Catskills and no rain to the south. The 1750cfs formula had to be met at Montague, NJ thus the water came from Cannonsville.

NYC DEP storage data at present:
Cannonsville is at 49.1%
Pepacton is at: 69.7%

I had to gather these numbers for tomorrow's UDR WU/RM meeting anyway.

Showers up here this week. My guess is that they'll keep that release for awhile.

Tight lines,
TR



NYC Total for this date:
71.2%
NYC Historical normal for this date is:
72.9%

 

[brachycentrus]

Anyone been following the flows on the west branch the past week. The river went from being over 1000 cfs for nearly a month to only 170cfs overnight and during prime time spawning season for the browns up there. I realize the water was artificially high this fall because of low flows downstream, but was it beyond reasonable to gradually scale back flows over a 3-5 day period to allow the fish to move to low water lies instead of leaving them on the rocks?(Instead they did it all in 12 hrs on October 16th) The response is the typical yawn at this point and fuck it- lets just send in our $20 and get drunk at the One Bug Next year in the name of conservation. Of course, FUDR hasn't issued a single comment on this drop nor has any other group. Between this terrible mgmt at a time critical to wild reproduction up there for 3-5 years in a row now and the amount of catch and kill fishing on the west branch this fall- this concludes a sad sad year up there for the system.

JC, This has been an annual event. Couple years ago, they dropped it overnight to around 125 and there were stranded spawners. The worst of it is that they know full well what they are doing and it's impact, so much that it seems intentional.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

About the only good news is that the browns are not yet spawning. We haven't heard of nor seen redds formed yet in the greater tri-state area and I and many others have been looking closely. But the overnight drop in flows is and has always been ridiculous and unnecessary. Let's hope this week's rains bring up the fish into the spawning grounds, wherever that might be. Our local (NJ) brookies are colored up for the spawn. So it will be here soon.

 

[brachycentrus]

I believe that in the pre FFMP discussions, this very subject was brought up and I thought that minimum flows were supposed to be released to protect the spawners and redds from being exposed. Typical New York, they could give a damn about honoring their word.

 

[Future Fanatic]

I believe that in the pre FFMP discussions, this very subject was brought up and I thought that minimum flows were supposed to be released to protect the spawners and redds from being exposed. Typical New York, they could give a damn about honoring their word.

http://water.usgs.gov/osw/odrm/documents/FFMP_2014_Agreement.pdf

I glanced through the agreement but couldn't find the spot where spawning flows was covered. Could you point it out so I could see the exact wording? Thanks.

 

[golden beetle]

The recent release that I cited at Cannonsville just has nothing at all to do with trout fishing.

The trout fishing industry is an incidental beneficiary of a lawsuit between New York and New Jersey from 50 or 60 years ago.

I don't think that a trout fishery was the intent of those who designed the bottom water release dams, was it?

I have always wondered why they designed the dams as they did...

The issue that resonates with me is fracking. I tend to agree with FF on the question whether the FFMP ever contemplated redds and spawning. I think the endangered mussels have more right to protection under the FFMP than the trout do...

I am not saying that's right, but just giving my impression of the FFMP as it is.

That said, the upper Delaware river should be zoned for certain business activities. Fishing is one of those activities.

Fracking on the land adjacent to the fishery strikes me as something that properly could be stopped by good zoning laws that could be implemented prior to the end of the fracking moratorium.

 

[flyI4]

You just love to watch yourself write dont you?

 

[golden beetle]

You just love to watch yourself write dont you?

Hahahhaha.

You are making good points...

 

[brachycentrus]

http://water.usgs.gov/osw/odrm/documents/FFMP_2014_Agreement.pdf

I glanced through the agreement but couldn't find the spot where spawning flows was covered. Could you point it out so I could see the exact wording? Thanks.

It was never entered into the official wording of the FFMP. This discusion came up at the WaterWater Everywhere summit and the general consensus was that the releases in the plan, with normal fall rains, should provide protection. But as was pointed out at the time, you cant count on guaranteed precipitation as this very thing has happened several times in the last few years. Tow or three years ago, it went from around 2000 overnight to 110, I believe. No ramping, just shut the valve and screw the fish.

Brian, For what it's worth, according to Norm McBride's telemetry study, there are spawning fish up top in late Sept and October. Thats why the season used to end up there on October 1st.
But when I called him on changing the date to the 15th, he said, " Oh, dont pay attention to my study " Shit you not !!

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Brian, For what it's worth, according to Norm McBride's telemetry study, there are spawning fish up top in late Sept and October. Thats why the season used to end up there on October 1st.
But when I called him on changing the date to the 15th, he said, " Oh, dont pay attention to my study " Shit you not !!

It wouldn't surprise me if your area up there are seeing some browns staged up and ready to spawn. We're just not yet seeing it here from everything I or others that know what to look for are seeing. I'll take a look at a Musky spawning trib later today when I'm down that way. It's a native brookie trib that gets a lot of spawning browns in the fall that drop back to the mainstem Musky in winter after they spawn. In that trib, they are typically easy to spot versus the much smaller brook trout redds.

 

[GARYB]

I'm sure the browns are on their way to spawning on the upper WB, comparing that to a few brookies in a Musky trib
doesn't really relate.

 

[golden beetle]

For those of you most passionate about this, and want to be taken seriously on the matter, write an article about it for GB mag.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

I'm sure the browns are on their way to spawning on the upper WB, comparing that to a few brookies in a Musky trib
doesn't really relate.

I was referring to wild browns in several NJ streams including the Musky and its tribs. Not brookies.