Welcome to NEFF

Sign up for a new account today, or log on with your old account!
Register

Give us a try!

Welcome back to the new NEFF. Take a break from Twitter and Facebook. You don't go to Dicks for your fly fishing gear, you go to your local fly fishing store. Enjoy!

Why are underwater diagrams 100% useless?

dcabarle

dcabarle

Administrator
I know I brought this up one time before but I'd like to open it back up.

So let me comment on why I think underwater diagrams on how to nymph for trout are 100% complete bullshit... They pretty much assume that all of the water you'll ever fish is going to look like those diagrams.

Let's say you're fishing a place like uhhhhh........ The KLG or maybe a little well known river called, The Beaverkill. For these rivers, you can take those diagrams, print them out on toilet paper, and use them to wipe your asses with. 100% USELESS. Unless of course the river topography mimics the diagram. Even if it does mimic the diagram, it probably wont the following day. At a given time, a river might be running at 700cfs and the very next morning at 300 cfs or even 2000cfs. The water hydraulics totally change and move your fly/splitshot/strike indicator completely different. It's common sense. Don't believe me? Try it for yourself... Take a handful of bobbers (the nice red and white ones) and tie a few splitshot and flies to the ends of them (use the diagram of your choice to detemine where to tie on your 6 flies and 3 splitshot). Drop them in the river 1 by 1 in the same location. Record where each of your bobbers go for 20-30 feet. Come back to the same spot (if you can even wade there anymore) after a good rain and repeat the test (and if that location just happend to dry up, drop it anyway, maybe the wind will take it). Please post your results. None of the diagrams I've seen posted take into consideration that the river you fish 1 day is not the same river the following day.

Plunge pools, slack water, back eddies, etc...

While you're learning to cast, take a moment to look at the river and see where the water is moving at various rates. Rocks in the water slow the water down but while the water comes around a rock, it shoots out the other side. Here's a nice site for reading water.

http://www.midcurrent.com/articles/techniques/monahan_mending.aspx


This site shows a basic description of an actual situation. I say actual because this is something you will see quite often regardless of the CFS. And sure, the hydraulics on the surface change with the CFS, the basics of the diagrams in the top water diagrams are basically the same. How often do you see the bottom of the river when it's 20 feet away from you? I think diagrams which present the bottom of a stream are absolute BS. They are diagrams made of a guessing game and take absolutely nothing under water into consideration (water hydraulics). HYDRAULICS HYDRAULICS HYDRAULICS. DAMIT!

Hey... Just my opinion based upon facts. I'm a logic kinda guy. Looking at a diagram depicting an underwater situation obviously doesn't sit right with me. I'm willing to bet that 100% of you could take me to your favorite spot and identify a rock; for example, Piano rock in the Hendricksons pool or the rock in the Meathole in the KLG. I bet 100% of you cannot do the same with underwater rocks (rocks which you cannot normally see under normal or high water fishing conditions).

Just as an FYI... I'm not picking on any single party here but I posted a thread not too long ago "Guide vs Guide". This thread set me off on my rant here. I'm sure there are plenty of other people who have attempted to do the same thing these guys have done. They are all BS (unless you're in a lake).

Thanks for listening.:smiley-sniffer:
 
Thank you for posting that!

That is why the way the Europeans fish nymphs is far more effective. The flies are weighted and they can change the way that the flies are fished by what is done with the rod angle. You can also fish all the water types that you mentioned with the setups. Indicator nymphing, unless done in water where there is littler depth change would not be the technique of choice. However, on the Delaware system where there are gentle riffles with low gradient, for the most part, it is extremelt effective as are wet flies and soft hackles.

The problem with indicators is unless they are rigged up perfectly you are not fishing the flies but rather the indicator. Your flies can de anywhere within a given radius, which is whatever space you have between the indicator and the weights.

Also, the Euro methods allow for constant contact between you and your flies. There is no split shot added to the line, which causes a dead spot and makes hits less detectable. Any take is transmitted right to the line and is seen in the sighter, which is an in line strike detector. So you are right, diagrams of river situations are useless. I am not using mine to show how to use the technique, but rather to show the faults with indicator fishing. I use it to peak curiosity in the Euro stuff.

Also, I get tons of takes as the flies are descending through the water. Can someone explain to me how you would be able to detect these take with an indicator or even dry dropper? The answer is, you can't! I catch at least half of my fish as the flies are sinking. The trout react to the flies and take them. This is much like what we see in Ozzie's videos. The French are experts at this.

Hopefully we can have a good discussion about the two techniques here.

Thanks Dennis!
 
The exact reason I never use a indicator. If you use enough lead( or no tox) to be on the bottom your always in the strike zone. Sometimes it requires adding or subtracting weight from your setup depending on were your fishing you may have to do this every couple of feet. When I see guys using indicators they never seem to be ajusting them enough, you may have to ajust it a couple of times in a small stretch of water. The last thing is when straight line nymphing you really get a feel for what is on the bottom of the area your fishing and you also develop that six sense as when to set the hook on a take. Beats the hell out of staring at bobbers all day.:)
 
I'm not against diagrams - how else can you make your points in writing. The one you give shows a basic mend, which far too many people can't do in my observations. Of course one has to adapt the basic concept to the conditions. If fly fishing could be done by the numbers rather than working out the presentation it would be boring very quickly. Books can only get you started - the rest is practice, practice, practice. That is the same for any field (one common rule is mastery of anything takes 10,000 hours of experience). Why should fly fishing be any different?

The indicator/weighted nymph debate will go on forever. Aaron says it best with the with an indicator you fish the indicator rather than the flies. I do that mentally more than technically because I find myself zoning out and robotically just flipping the indicator up and watching it float down. If I take care to imagine each lie, adjust the rig for each spot, and check the indicator speed so that the rig doesn't drag the nymphs along the bottom it can be deadly, but it is far to easy to just chuck and chance it. Also, the using the indicator as a bobber is a pretty simple use of indicators. For example, the long range midging with an indicator as practiced out West in shallow riffles is an example of a better use of indicator. A yarn indicator is tied about 9 feet above the nymphs. Generally fish are spotted first and the flies are cast across and slightly up and the line is mended to get the nymphs to the proper depth right in front of the fish. Keeping in touch with the flies is important and it is similar in many ways to wet fly fishing. By keeping a tight line and working the nymphs, whether with an indicator and mending or European style, I find myself generally more engaged and watchful - and as a result more successful. Just floating a weighted rig under a bobber causes me to lose interest fast, and really stop catching fish. I really think it is more the level of mental engagement rather than the technique.
 
Hi Jeff,

I agree with the majority of what you said. I'm generally not against diagrams either. With the link I posted, I wasn't trying to point out the mending techniques, just the drawings of how the water flows down the river and around obstacles. Now while the same applies underwater, you cannot possibly know what is underwater in many situations. I stick by my example for underwater diagrams and why I think they're useless. Some will agree, some will disagree. Those who disagree... I don't think they are thinking clearly but that's just my opinion.

Everything else you mention, especially this comment, "I really think it is more the level of mental engagement rather than the technique" is dead on!

JeffK said:
I'm not against diagrams - how else can you make your points in writing. The one you give shows a basic mend, which far too many people can't do in my observations. Of course one has to adapt the basic concept to the conditions. If fly fishing could be done by the numbers rather than working out the presentation it would be boring very quickly. Books can only get you started - the rest is practice, practice, practice. That is the same for any field (one common rule is mastery of anything takes 10,000 hours of experience). Why should fly fishing be any different?

The indicator/weighted nymph debate will go on forever. Aaron says it best with the with an indicator you fish the indicator rather than the flies. I do that mentally more than technically because I find myself zoning out and robotically just flipping the indicator up and watching it float down. If I take care to imagine each lie, adjust the rig for each spot, and check the indicator speed so that the rig doesn't drag the nymphs along the bottom it can be deadly, but it is far to easy to just chuck and chance it. Also, the using the indicator as a bobber is a pretty simple use of indicators. For example, the long range midging with an indicator as practiced out West in shallow riffles is an example of a better use of indicator. A yarn indicator is tied about 9 feet above the nymphs. Generally fish are spotted first and the flies are cast across and slightly up and the line is mended to get the nymphs to the proper depth right in front of the fish. Keeping in touch with the flies is important and it is similar in many ways to wet fly fishing. By keeping a tight line and working the nymphs, whether with an indicator and mending or European style, I find myself generally more engaged and watchful - and as a result more successful. Just floating a weighted rig under a bobber causes me to lose interest fast, and really stop catching fish. I really think it is more the level of mental engagement rather than the technique.
Click to expand...
 
I thought this was a fly fishing site.

Why is everyone talking about diaphragms?

Shouldn't that talk be between you and your wives?

As always, why can't we all just get along.

AK Skim
 
Dennis,

I'm an engineer who spends a fair amount of time calculating how tow cables trail behind a ship, so I like diagrams more than most. Current profiles and catenaries are an every day thing to me.

The one thing about those diagrams that I don't like is that too many fishermen today try to take the short cut of just doing the reading and expect to be a pro without much time on the water. Reading is fine, but dealing with all the variables can only come with time.
 
JeffK said:
Dennis,

I'm an engineer who spends a fair amount of time calculating how tow cables trail behind a ship, so I like diagrams more than most. Current profiles and catenaries are an every day thing to me.
Click to expand...
Jeff, I think that just like anything, there is an application for its use. I think (and I could be wrong) that a stream is a bit different than the Hudson (or any river large enough to float a "ship". I believe there are pre-designated boating routes that apply. Are we talking apples to apples here? I'm not implying that you're wrong. I'm just asking if a diagram with a pre-cut channel is going to be the same as a handfull of streams that are constantly changing with rocks and flow rates, etc... So a diagram on the Hudson (or such) will have that channel in it. You can also use the sonar to monitor the bottom of the Hudson to see what is changing. I just think it's a different picture. I'm sure you're very good at what you do and I'm sure that the technologies can be applied but we're talking fish here with 2lb mono with some split shot attached.

The one thing about those diagrams that I don't like is that too many fishermen today try to take the short cut of just doing the reading and expect to be a pro without much time on the water. Reading is fine, but dealing with all the variables can only come with time.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

I think we're on the same page. I can see your reasoning for using a diagram for what you do. No arguments from me. My only disagreement is stated above.
 
ajfromnj said:
Thank you for posting that!

Also, the Euro methods allow for constant contact between you and your flies. There is no split shot added to the line, which causes a dead spot and makes hits less detectable. Any take is transmitted right to the line and is seen in the sighter, which is an in line strike detector. So you are right, diagrams of river situations are useless. I am not using mine to show how to use the technique, but rather to show the faults with indicator fishing. I use it to peak curiosity in the Euro stuff.

Hopefully we can have a good discussion about the two techniques here.

Thanks Dennis!
Click to expand...

Allen, Aaron - Here's a little discussion regarding hydrodynamics. Your diagrams showing indicator and shot use need some tweaking. The leader does NOT have to straighten out in order to see or feel a take - without getting technical, water is viscous, it is moving, there is drag, tension, etc., that will transmit a take before the leader straightens. This also applies to setting the hook - yes, the line straightens out eventually from the weight of the fish, but tension/drag on the line/leader when you lift the rod will set the hook before the line straightens. Yes, it is less direct than the method you are comparing it to, but you do not need to be so dramatic to make your point. While I do not doubt the efficacy of fishing without an indicator or split shot, it would be better if your comparison did not use misinformation to support your methods. As for the use of split shot and how the fish view it, I would think that if the shot is moving through the water column without drag, it's very likely the fish see it as just more stuff drifting by them. I'm sure they spend their days avoiding sticks, stones, wading shoes, etc., and the shot is just more of the same.

If you are going to put yourself out there as an expert, you don't need to distort things to "peak curiosity" in straight/direct line nymphing, and it is not neccesary if the method you are promoting is sound.

No, I am not an expert, just curious. For the record, I don't use indicators because I too believe a direct connection is best, and as Jeff K said, I want to fish the fly, not the indicator.

See you on the river.

Mel
 
Last edited:
Heron,

Theone reason why I go to extremes with the example of the indicator is that most people are very against trying something different. They get set in their ways. I love learning new things and was skeptical of these methods a few years back. Of course indicator fishing is a viable technique but you miss at least half of the takes. There are ways to set up the indicator system to detect more strikes. You can use a bounce system or space out your weights like a coarse fisherman would.

In situations where I feel like using an indicator I like to use dry dropper with weighted flies. There is no shot being used and the fish can get caught on the dry. The takes are more easily detected because split shot is eliminated.

All for now lunch is over;)
 
The more tricks up your sleeve the more conditions you can adapt to. All are deadly at the same time.

As far as hydrodynamics, trout streams are almost entirely in the turbulent regime, where the flow varies and prediction is only approximate. While approximate, the models can give some insights. It also means the velocity varies from top to bottom so that there will always be forces that bow your tippet. You cannot eliminate them, but deal with them in the best way possible to maintain contact with the fly.

In a turbulent stream the water moves in "globs" that interact with other "globs". Two globs sliding along one another create a seam, two globs plowing into each other cause a boil. Something many of has noticed is at the center of a glob will be a flat spot that acts as a window - the areas at the edges will be ripply. Following the windows allows one to look better into the stream, but these windows are moving along and you have to catch them right.
 
ajfromnj said:
Heron,

Theone reason why I go to extremes with the example of the indicator is that most people are very against trying something different. They get set in their ways. I love learning new things and was skeptical of these methods a few years back. Of course indicator fishing is a viable technique but you miss at least half of the takes. There are ways to set up the indicator system to detect more strikes. You can use a bounce system or space out your weights like a coarse fisherman would.

In situations where I feel like using an indicator I like to use dry dropper with weighted flies. There is no shot being used and the fish can get caught on the dry. The takes are more easily detected because split shot is eliminated.

All for now lunch is over;)
Click to expand...

Knock-knock!

Who's there?

Aaron.

Aaron who?

Aaron who totally missed my point so I'll be blunt: Your view that people are so set in their ways, and so therefore you need to persuade them with "extreme" (mis)information, is both insulting and not something someone who calls themself an "expert" should be doing. There is more than enough bullsh*t on the web, in magazines and at the shows, without it being done knowingly to promote ones agenda. Did you work in the Bush administration?

I don't know you and I have no agenda, I just feel that if you are going to put yourself out there as someone who is an "expert", all of your information should be accurate. Isn't that what being an expert is about?

See you at your next presentation.

Mel
 
There is zero misinformation there at all.

Look at the diagrams in the thread and read the notes. Maybe I will put up a few more slides here. What I meant by extreme is that I have all the ducks in order and at the presentation I do tell the people that the Euro methods are only one piece of the puzzle. If and when you come you can be as skeptical as you would like as I do not dodge any questions. Many people on this board have seen the presentation and or done one of my clinics and I am sure that they can vouch as for its effectiveness and by the same token there are many people who have seen me fishing indicator systems. So I do fish all methods and am not downplaying sopmething that I don't know about! ;)
 
ajfromnj said:
There is zero misinformation there at all.

Look at the diagrams in the thread and read the notes. Maybe I will put up a few more slides here. What I meant by extreme is that I have all the ducks in order and at the presentation I do tell the people that the Euro methods are only one piece of the puzzle. If and when you come you can be as skeptical as you would like as I do not dodge any questions. Many people on this board have seen the presentation and or done one of my clinics and I am sure that they can vouch as for its effectiveness and by the same token there are many people who have seen me fishing indicator systems. So I do fish all methods and am not downplaying sopmething that I don't know about! ;)
Click to expand...

Okay, let's have some fun. I am going to make a statement consisting of a couple of sentences, and I challenge you to prove the premise wrong with facts, not "Jasper-talk".

Your diagram states the following: "Strike has to straighten hanging line, transmit through BB shot, then line, then move the indicator" This is misinformation because when a fish takes the nymph in its mouth and stops it, and the end of the leader stops. Because of the physical properties of water and the fact that it is moving, the tension that is already in the leader is increased almost immediately, even if there is shot on it (because that stops too), and the indicator moves in some fashion. Maybe the strike isn't detected as fast as with the straight line method, but pretty darn quickly and it sure as hell works well because millions of anglers employ the method. And most of all, the "hanging" leader does NOT have to straighten before the indicator moves.

So, without making any statements about how wonderful your method is, prove to us that the indicator will not move until the "hanging line" is straightened. Remember, you must do this "open mindedly."

For those of you wondering why I am pushing this, its because I spoke to a guy who saw Aaron's presentation at a TU meeting and now he's totally confused about indicator fishing even though he does well with it after only two seasons.

BTW - I never said I was skeptical about your method, you said I was. Read carefully, not selectively.

Somebody grab me a beer.

Mel
 
lolintvm4-1.jpg


That still doesn't answer how you can detect hits as the flies are descending with an indicator.

Get out there, try to euro nymph. After you start getting it, then make an assessment.
 
Heron,

You are right. You wore me out. I can see that this is not a discussion. I am too busy to go back and forth with you. You can do/think whatever you need to and that's ok.

BTW I am going fly fishing right now;)

Its strange that he is confused about the indicator methods. The presentation does not involve teaching that style of fishing. But seriously, take a break from posting, try some of this stuff out and you will see.
 
Just for grins I just modeled nymph fishing in currents from 0.25 knots to 2 knots ( 2 knots is about walking speed), with one B shot and 1 through 5 BB shot. Basically, at up to about 0.75 to 1 knots with indicator fishing the flies will drop near the bottom, but above that the flies will plane pretty well and do not get near the bottom. Doesn't mean you wouldn't catch fish, but in the faster currents you will stay nearer the bottom with Euro techniques. Adding weight didn't drop the nymph as much as I thought - speed control/mending has a big impact. Therefore, got to mend to get your nymph down, just adding weight wouldn't do it alone.

Looked at using 2X to 5X tippet. Only saw a maximum of 8% of extra line out for the range, so tippet size wasn't a big driver.

With Euro techniques minimum amount of tippet in the water was when the line just barely started pointing downstream, although wasn't that sensitive for angles with 10 degrees of vertical either way.

All these were steady state values with a 6th power velocity distribution and didn't include transients for mending for speed maintenance - that is too hard for me to model quickly. Also didn't model the side currents coming off a bank or rock since the 3D currents are a pain to model.
 
ajfromnj said:
Heron,

You are right. You wore me out. I can see that this is not a discussion. I am too busy to go back and forth with you. You can do/think whatever you need to and that's ok.

BTW I am going fly fishing right now;)

Its strange that he is confused about the indicator methods. The presentation does not involve teaching that style of fishing. But seriously, take a break from posting, try some of this stuff out and you will see.
Click to expand...

I am not confused about indicator methods and that is not my point.

I said early on, I do NOT doubt the efficacy of the method, and in fact, I also commented in agreement with you that I am sure with that method you do feel the strike more quickly and you seem to catch many fish that way. That's great, I get it.

That was not the point - the point is that with indicator fishing the line does NOT have to straighten before the indicator moves in some way. That's all. I am also busting your balls in fun because you you are so convinced I am dissing Euro nymphing, you fail to get my simple, but important point. That said, I knew I could discuss this with you without you getting all bent out of shape, which is a credit to you.

I am going fishing, I fish almost everyday. Posting this stuff takes minutes and gives me a break.

Later,

Mel
 
CreekAddict said:
lolintvm4-1.jpg


That still doesn't answer how you can detect hits as the flies are descending with an indicator.

Get out there, try to euro nymph. After you start getting it, then make an assessment.
Click to expand...

Not sure how everyone else is fishing indicators, but my flies aren't dropping in a huge heap of line when they hit the water...they're basically fully extended from the indicator when they both hit the water and I've caught loads of fish during the first .5-2 seconds after the flies land(with the indicator alerting me to the strike)

I'm sure euro nymphing works, just as I'm sure there are tons of methods that work that don't have a fancy name, but "peaking interest" sounds like nothing more than pimping the next technique in line to keep business up:puking-smiley: To some, catching may not be the sole purpose of going out and fishing, so what's wrong with guys being set in their ways?
 
ajfromnj said:
Thank you for posting that!

.

Also, I get tons of takes as the flies are descending through the water. Can someone explain to me how you would be able to detect these take with an indicator or even dry dropper? The answer is, you can't! I catch at least half of my fish as the flies are sinking. The trout react to the flies and take them. This is much like what we see in Ozzie's videos. The French are experts at this.

Hopefully we can have a good discussion about the two techniques here.

Thanks Dennis!
Click to expand...

FYI. I have caught plenty of Delaware trout this year using an indicator as flies are descending in the water column. I sometimes will nymph casting upstream exclusivley when in the riffles never letting my flies pass me.The takes are usually within the first few seconds of them landing. They never hit bottom and my strike indicator alerts me to the take. Every fish this year on the Delaware "when nymphing" has been that way. The takes have been downright violent.
 
Aaron,
If your leader turns over properly, the flies are not sinking on a slack line. Therefore, the strike indicator will detect the strike.
 
sstasiak said:
Not sure how everyone else is fishing indicators, but my flies aren't dropping in a huge heap of line when they hit the water...they're basically fully extended from the indicator when they both hit the water and I've caught loads of fish during the first .5-2 seconds after the flies land(with the indicator alerting me to the strike)

I'm sure euro nymphing works, just as I'm sure there are tons of methods that work that don't have a fancy name, but "peaking interest" sounds like nothing more than pimping the next technique in line to keep business up:puking-smiley: To some, catching may not be the sole purpose of going out and fishing, so what's wrong with guys being set in their ways?
Click to expand...

If you think you are detecting all the strikes using indicators, that's great. Stick with it, bud. More fish for me.

Nothing wrong with people being set in their ways. Nothing wrong with not wanting to catch more fish while you're out fishing either.

I just know, for me, catching more fish is what drives me not only to go out and fish, but to go out and learn new and better ways to catch them.

I grew up fishing with indicators, high sticking, and dry dropper rigs. I just started euro nymphing less than a year ago. If I were to fish against myself now vs. a year ago, I'd blow my indicator fishing ass out of the water. My catch rate has gone up SIGNIFICANTLY. I'm not just catching a few more trout, I'm catching an ass load more. Indicators still have their place, as a matter of fact, I dry smashed some trout shit box with them this weekend. It's just nice to have another technique that I can rely on to put me on trout. There's a lot of water types that I wont even think about using an indicator in anymore.

I think it's great that Aaron, and people like Aaron are out there teaching fly fisherman these new and exciting techniques. Talk to any body that has taken his class. Everyone sings the same tune, I'll promise you that.
 
CreekAddict said:
If you think you are detecting all the strikes using indicators, that's great. Stick with it, bud. More fish for me.

Nothing wrong with people being set in their ways. Nothing wrong with not wanting to catch more fish while you're out fishing either.

I just know, for me, catching more fish is what drives me not only to go out and fish, but to go out and learn new and better ways to catch them.

I grew up fishing with indicators, high sticking, and dry dropper rigs. I just started euro nymphing less than a year ago. If I were to fish against myself now vs. a year ago, I'd blow my indicator fishing ass out of the water. My catch rate has gone up SIGNIFICANTLY. I'm not just catching a few more trout, I'm catching an ass load more. Indicators still have their place, as a matter of fact, I dry smashed some trout shit box with them this weekend. It's just nice to have another technique that I can rely on to put me on trout. There's a lot of water types that I wont even think about using an indicator in anymore.

I think it's great that Aaron, and people like Aaron are out there teaching fly fisherman these new and exciting techniques. Talk to any body that has taken his class. Everyone sings the same tune, I'll promise you that.
Click to expand...

AGAIN, I'm not saying that the method isn't effective, and in fact I have used many variations of these techniques to catch fish. What bothers me is the way some of these guys inundate this and other sites with "the next best thing" in fly fishing,
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

JOE.T
The Big One that really got away
Replies
6
Views
7K
JOE.T
JOE.T
dcabarle
Fudr - 2016
Replies
8
Views
18K
golden beetle
golden beetle
FIN-ITE 34
Small Stream Saturday
Replies
2
Views
18K
cocopelao
C
mudbug201
Upper D - 5/8 - 5/10
Replies
7
Views
4K
Future Fanatic
Future Fanatic
flyI4
Early season streamer fishing
Replies
3
Views
4K
flyI4
flyI4
Back
Top