Who or What ruined your favorite fishing hole due to overcrowding.

[dcabarle]

Just curious to see your opinions on who or what you think ruined your favorite fishing hole.

A long time ago, before I fished the KLG, I would read about it in the Star Ledger by one of the outdoor writers on almost a weekly basis. For those of you not from NJ, the Star Ledger is New Jersey's largest newspaper. Anyhow, I figured I'd give the KLG a try. After fishing it a few times, I started posting about it on the internet. A few years later, I was personally blamed by a few for ruining NJ's most 'premium' fishing hole. Now I doubt there were more people reading a website than the star ledger, but some still felt they needed to place the blame on me anyway. I personally think that's a crock but who knows, maybe there is some truth to it.

Just about every weekend I make it up to the delaware system. I'll normally post photo's of the river or some of the wildlife. I might post that I floated from such and such spot down to such and such spot for example, Shehawken to Buckingham or other... I don't recall ever giving out specific information about certain spots, but possibly this website is to blame for some of the overcrowding. This Saturday, the Buckingham parking lot looked more like a mall parking lot.

Another thing I would never do is reveal a spot that someone asked me not to. One that comes to mind is the Stockport access. Well, I've gotta admit that I've posted about it, but this was long after the person revealed it to me. I think the Stockport access is a terrific, and I'm sure the other 10-20 guys you see there when passing by at any given time think the same. The access points on the D are so limited that people are eventually going to find the legal ones. Back to the subject of this paragraph... I will on rare occasion take a friend with me to a spot that someone asked me not to brag about. That said, 99% of the time, I fish alone. I think my judgement is good as far as the quality of people I bring along with me when I do.

The way I figure it is that we have a website here where the owner at times involves himself in a conversation. The difference here is that people can reply to me and receive a reply rather quickly whereas if you write to a magazine, you may or may not be heard publicly. Not only that, a magazine might only publish what they want you to hear rather than simply let everyone's opinions be heard.

So now the question... Who or what destroyed your favorite fishing hole? Feel free to explain.

 

[just dave]

Dept. of Fish and Game when thay made the Gorge a TCA.

Dave

 

[Pete]

Actually, the Ramapo is improving.

The local towns and the county have been buying up the remaining undeveloped tracts (with "Green Acres" money from the State) and providing more access. EJTU has been doing clean-up and improvement projects. There are fewer "No Trespassing" signs on privately owned land.

MOSTLY:
Cal's (who used to rent canoes) sold out to Britt's. Now, the Aluminum Hatch that used to be a constant annoyance, is limited to a handfull of privately owned craft, manned by people who can actually, handle their watercraft well enough to make there way through a pool without crashing into every rock in sight (and the occasional fisherperson).

 

[NJFred]

I think that there is no question that the internet and websites like these have directly contributed to a greater awareness of great fly fishing spots like the Delaware and therefore more fisherman. I certianly do not place the blame on anyone with regard to this. It's simply the new media world we live in. More transparence of information on everything everywhere.

If I recall, the number of fisherman and fly fisherman aren't really growing that much so interestingly, if they are targeting one spot, there are plenty of other good water which is less crowded. So for those of you who are complianing about crowding on the Delaware, get off you butts and go find some new water which is less popular. Or... target a different species than trout as some are doing here.

 

[iflifish]

You know, it is a funny thing... For the first time in over 2 years I fished the South Branch of the Raritan yesterday. Went to a few spots that have been good to me over the years and did pretty well, then for kicks decided to drive thru the KLG and have a look since it's probably been at least 3 or 4 years since I had been there. It was practically empty (by Gorge standards). Everyone must have been up on the D...

 

[JW1970]

The main difference between traditionally published materials (books, magazines, newspapers) and the internet is that thanks to wonders like Google search technology someone doing a search on a topic can quickly get an aggregated list of information on that topic... much of it up-to-the-minute information, as well as covering information days, weeks and years after they were posted.

Green Drakes are on! BAM... instant crowds. Print publishing doesn't have that same affect. It also doesn't have the same focused, interested audience at all times. Your site reaches about 125 active participants per day as best I can tell by the info your site says on the homepage (who probably have 3 - 5 friends who don't actively participate but whom they actively fish with). In addition it seems to have 2 guests viewing for every 3 members viewing. The site reaches a very large, captive and interested audience daily with up-to-the-minute/day information on where to fish and when. And since it's timely information, it's far different from someone reading about a great green drake destination and then having to plan, gamble and scout out for hitting it some season. It's also farther reaching than a fly shop receiving phone calls -- most people don't make such calls.

Many sites such as this one ban "hot spotting" and reports. They give each other reports privately via PM or email, specifically to avoid having places overrun the next day/weeks.

Point is -- this site (and those like it) have a DEFINITE and IMMEDIATE impact on the fishermen density on a stream. People can choose to fish elsewhere, but given the choice to seek out fish and find hatches OR go hit a relatively sure-thing, most opt for the sure thing. You don't see many guys fishing Pulaski in early September or late August despite there being some fish to be had. As soon as the first report of the big run starting -- BAM! elbow to elbow. If there were no reports, guys would have to find fish on their own (isn't that part of fishing???) and seek out hatches on their own. It would as a result spread out the crowds due to a few factors. 1. People like to catch fish. If they gamble wrong and catch nothing it has a definite impact on what their next gamble will be. 2. Guys would be left to their own wits to pick between the 10s to 100s of good fisheries in the region. 3. Most of the guys (not all, but most) only travel so far to fish the upper D. because they're given the impression it will definitely be worth the trip. If they weren't sure they had a good shot at catching some fish, many wouldn't drive that far and risk staring at dead water...certainly not week in and week out.

To support the point, how many posts does this site get stating "what's hatching on the...?" "Should I come up for the weekend???" Well, all those people wouldn't bother going if they didn't have someone telling them, "yeah, it's definitely worth the trip." Meanwhile, telling someone that information publicly means you just told 10s to 100s of anglers in the region the same thing...who told 2 friends and so on and so on and so on. It really isn't a matter of the upper D. being a "secret." It certainly isn't that and hasn't been for a long time now. But sites and reports such as those found here are "fish here" signs that draw crowds away from the explorations they otherwise naturally would have went on to seek out fish. I mean, they'd all have to fools (like me) to go hit the EB instead of the WB if they were told the EB is slow the WB is hot.

I won't answer your question about who ruined my favorite spot; however, while I think this site contributes to the crowding at my favorite spots, I think the crowding trend began long before this site came to be. It's a contributor, and possibly a cause on certain days and weekends, but it isn't THE cause.

That's my 2 cents on it.

 

[C&R]

Actually, the Ramapo is improving.

The local towns and the county have been buying up the remaining undeveloped tracts (with "Green Acres" money from the State) and providing more access. EJTU has been doing clean-up and improvement projects. There are fewer "No Trespassing" signs on privately owned land.

All we need to do now is dam the river at some point and create some tailwater for year-round fishing. Then the guides and driftboats would move in and then,according to Cdun, we would end up trashing the river and we'd be back to where started from. :bawling:

 

[Pete]

All we need to do now is dam the river at some point and create some tailwater for year-round fishing. Then the guides and driftboats would move in and then,according to Cdun, we would end up trashing the river and we'd be back to where started from. :bawling:

I read somewhere that the Ramapo once held native brookies.....I'd rather see the existing dams, including the ones in NY and on all the feeder streams, eliminated. Every one of those ponds is acting as a solar collector.

It'll never happen....

 

[rford]

Japanese and other off shore Pair Trawlers did a number on the local Tuna polulation.

 

[Future Fanatic]

I read somewhere that the Ramapo once held native brookies.....I'd rather see the existing dams, including the ones in NY and on all the feeder streams, eliminated. Every one of those ponds is acting as a solar collector.

It'll never happen....

Pete, when you write "...dams, including the ones in NY and on all the feeder streams, eliminated..." I'm not sure if you are referring to the large reservoir dams up here. If you are, without the dams that produced Cannonsville or Pepacton(and probably others) there would be VERY limited trout fishing(if any) on the Delaware. Those dams provide cold water(or so I've heard... )

 

[C&R]

Pete, when you write "...dams, including the ones in NY and on all the feeder streams, eliminated..." I'm not sure if you are referring to the large reservoir dams up here. If you are, without the dams that produced Cannonsville or Pepacton(and probably others) there would be VERY limited trout fishing(if any) on the Delaware. Those dams provide cold water(or so I've heard... )

I'm almost positive that the dams that Pete is talking about are those that feed the Ramapo across the state line. This site would probably not even exist if we didn't have the NY tailwater systems.

 

[dscapuano]

I agree with NJFred.

I think that there is no question that the internet and websites like these have directly contributed to a greater awareness of great fly fishing spots like the Delaware and therefore more fisherman. I certianly do not place the blame on anyone with regard to this. It's simply the new media world we live in. More transparence of information on everything everywhere.

If I recall, the number of fisherman and fly fisherman aren't really growing that much so interestingly, if they are targeting one spot, there are plenty of other good water which is less crowded. So for those of you who are complianing about crowding on the Delaware, get off you butts and go find some new water which is less popular. Or... target a different species than trout as some are doing here.

To add to NJFred's comments, this is good for fly fishing and fishing in general. As I have stated here before, I do not go after trout and I haven't for many years. There is great bass fishing in NJ and don't forget the salt. I have had some of my best experiences on the salt. I personally do not tie any flies smaller than #12 and those are for panfish. Which brings up another point. If you have ever had a yellow perch or crappie on your line, you might think about leaving the trout arena.

 

[Pete]

Pete, when you write "...dams, including the ones in NY and on all the feeder streams, eliminated..." I'm not sure if you are referring to the large reservoir dams up here. If you are, without the dams that produced Cannonsville or Pepacton(and probably others) there would be VERY limited trout fishing(if any) on the Delaware. Those dams provide cold water(or so I've heard... )

I was limiting my comments to the Ramapo and it's feeders, with all those warm shallow ponds created by top release dams.

 

[JeffK]

Crowding has affected my fishing of the Ken Lockwood Gorge and Van Campens Bk, but that isn't the biggest problem. Development is! For example, the Musky valley used to have numbers of tribs with wild brookies that got big moving in and out of the Musky when conditions allowed. Most are now gone or support only browns even though next to no one ever fished them.

Sedimentation, phosphorus, and fecal coliform are the villians, not other fishermen!

To go with the phosphorus thread earlier, I work on the Whippany with Hacklebarney TU and the Whippany River Action Committee. In its upper reaches the insect life rates excellent and by the middle reaches it rates poor. It is amazing to see how many insects are in the upper sections - each 3'x3' bottom sample usually gives up more than a dozen golden stones along with a wide variety of macroinvertebrates. Lower down you only find midges, blackflies, and a few BWOs and caddis. The problem - phosphurus and fecal matter. Sewer plants aren't the problem. Tough rules and hourly monitoring make sure the sewer plants take out what they are designed to. The phosphorus comes from lawn fertilizer and the rest from goose and pet poop. That is what keeps the Whippany from being a good trout stream over its whole length. I would trade more fishing pressure for less pollution on nearly any stream in NJ.

 

[hondo]

Development along the Musky through Hacketstown and particularly the continuous mile long parking lot that was built in Mansfield Township not only did in the old fly stretch but also the river south of there.

 

[davethetrout]

All my childhood favorite spots are now un accessable due to ignorant litterbugs. The property owners only tolerate it for so long before they put up the "signs" and barbwire!:rant: Dont Litter!

 

[Scott]

Dept. of Fish and Game when thay made the Gorge a TCA.

Dave

Yup. I agree.

 

[Hooligan]

My favorite spot was "made public" in Charles Meck's book, "Pena. Trout Streams and Their Hatches." It seemed that after that book came out I had a hard time finding a parking spot! OK, maybe it wasn't that bad, but there would be 6 to 8 cars parked where there used to be 2 at the most. I'm not begrudging anyone a chance to fish the stream, I know I don't own it. But this stream just can't handle too many people. It lies in a gorge, making it difficult to walk along the side of the stream. An angler has to wade most of the length of the creek in order to move upstream or downstream.Fish are constantly spooked by too much movement, and to make matters worse, signs of poaching are very common.


Oh, well, thanks for the chance to vent.

John

 

[Fly Master G]

What has been pissing me off over the years is there is to much easy access to the water.A tree lined dirt road off the beaten path is now a parking lot with port o johns.There are paved paths and a bridge or 2 over the stream.If you need a bridge to cross a stream you don't belong ther in the first place.Its all open and easy to get to.I go in the woods to get away from that crap.You no longer have to hike in. Just park up to the water, bring your bucket and chuck your meat in.
JeffK mentioned Vancampens Bk so you might remember what Dunfield Crk used to be.
The Ramapoe has a lot of access that used to be wooded and limited only a few years ago.Now drive up walk 2 ft and take all thoes great tasting stockies.

 

[AKSkim]

What has been pissing me off over the years is there is to much easy access to the water.A tree lined dirt road off the beaten path is now a parking lot with port o johns.There are paved paths and a bridge or 2 over the stream.If you need a bridge to cross a stream you don't belong ther in the first place.Its all open and easy to get to.I go in the woods to get away from that crap.You no longer have to hike in. Just park up to the water, bring your bucket and chuck your meat in.
JeffK mentioned Vancampens Bk so you might remember what Dunfield Crk used to be.
The Ramapoe has a lot of access that used to be wooded and limited only a few years ago.Now drive up walk 2 ft and take all thoes great tasting stockies.

I was hoping you'd tell us what you really think.

 

[Kronk]

I know dams are a sore point but my favorite childhood hole and memories were ruined when the state yes the STATE bulldozed the dam and the bridge at marksboro on the Paulinskill into the river.I am 62 years old and started going there twice a week when I was 8 years old with my father and brother.I have many happy memories as a young boy with my family at this spot. The state put in a new bridge and instead of removing the concrete remains buldozed it into one of the best holes in the river.Another
example of poor management by the great state of N.J.....You can dispute the dam factor all you want but above the old dam is still a slow moving muck hole and below the DAM has been ruined. Dispute this all you want.
I LIVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[NJDrew]

I have yet to find a favorite or secret spot. I mostly fish KLG because I know the water. I learned about KLG from my father. He spent his teenage years in Highbridge and back then he use to camp in the gorge. Its hard to believe there was ever a time you could camp in KLG lol.

 

[AKSkim]

below the DAM has been ruined. Dispute this all you want.
I LIVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think anyone who runes a fishing spot by a dam should be drawn and quarted.

This is America !!

Long live the damn DAMS !!!!

 

[CR]

Development definitely ruined what surely would have been my favorite spot...had I been born 60 years earlier. There's a tiny little, ankle-deep stream right next to my house in Montville that is spring fed. I asked my neighbor, who is near 100 years old and has lived there forever, and he said when he was a kid that stream was chest deep, ice cold and loaded with wild brookies. Apparently, when the town put in two water wells that now provide water to the whole town, the water level dropped to it's current level. no more fish!

 

[AKSkim]

I asked my neighbor, who is near 100 years old

That is still 23 years younger than Petie-Po, who still has his first piece of wampum he ever earned.

 

[trico mike]

The one good thing about favorite spots is there is always another waiting to be discoverd. The gorge used to be my favorite spot but do to overcrowding and regulation changes I stopped fishing it save for once or twice a year, now I found other waters that are better and now my favorite spots. I guess were ever I'm fishing on a particular day is my favorite spot.

 

[Kronk]

The next spot to be ruined is the Flat Brook Fly Fishing area being turned into a YRTCA instead of making it on different section of the river.The powers to be have their mind made up and no matter how good another plan sounds they will not adopt it.Its a childish game of its my ball my rules. I better stop as i could go on and on... good thing I am fishing Pennsylvania tomorrow and Friday......Kronk:beingsick:

 

[kindanewbie77]

Just a question, how will that ruin that section of the BFB....inquiring minds want to know (like MINE)

 

[Corndog]

I have yet to find a favorite or secret spot. I mostly fish KLG because I know the water. I learned about KLG from my father. He spent his teenage years in Highbridge and back then he use to camp in the gorge. Its hard to believe there was ever a time you could camp in KLG lol.

Drew,

It isn't right that you don't have a favorite secret spot!!!

I have many and am willing to give one to you.

Let me know when we can hook up,
Sharedog

 

[RONNIE Z]

If anything were to ruin a good spot it would definitly not be the web site.Fishing is better now than its ever been and i hope it stays that way for a long time.