Welcome to NEFF

Sign up for a new account today, or log on with your old account!

Give us a try!

Welcome back to the new NEFF. Take a break from Twitter and Facebook. You don't go to Dicks for your fly fishing gear, you go to your local fly fishing store. Enjoy!

Summer Releases Back in the Old Days

I defer to the knowledge of people like Jim and Joe and Jeff, and others on the site who have been thinking about these issues for a long time. But I want to put a few points out there. I apologize in advance if these are stupid ideas.

The first point is that this was an abnormally dry and hot spring after an extremely cold winter. Not in any way normal. Anchor ice and snowpack, followed by a rapid heat up and no rain. In April and May of this year, the weather station in Hancock reported .01 inch of precipitation. On average, those months will have at least 2 or 3 inches of rain. (The mean is actually close to 15 inches for those two months, but it's pulled upward by extreme rainstorms.)

Of course the rivers are suffering. Of course the economy is suffering. This is almost a "worst case scenario" for the trout season. As JC and others have pointed out, FFMP is meant to protect the system during times of low flows, i.e. winter and summer, and anticipates some early spring rain, which we did not get at all.

No rainfall whatsoever in March and April is not a "new normal" - it's a test case and an opportunity to show the state and the city what happens when the Upper Delaware system doesn't have enough water in spring. A few emails back, somebody said "you broke it, you bought it" to Jim. The way I read this is that he is now somehow responsible for the weather. Wrong. Bigger releases would have helped this year. Smaller releases would have made things even worse. But you have to keep things in perspective. No flow plan is going to entirely anticipate and moderate the effects of extreme weather.

Second point. There are a couple of possible arguments that FUDR and others could use in pushing for an adjustment to the flow plan. They each have different implications.

The health of the fishery: Seems like the crucial issue here is avoiding really low flows when there are prolonged periods of high ambient temps. These are likely to happen in the summer. The Montague target releases will take care of some of these situations, and the FFMP scheduled releases will take care of others, but not all. Thermal protection releases, which Jim has been arguing for, and which the DEP explicitly said they were open to last week, seem to be the answer. When the reservoirs are above X% full, the rivermaster will release enough water to keep temps below 70 at Y location (Let's say Lordville). This doesn't seem unreasonable to me. And might not require huge amounts of water, though I really have no idea.
The health of the economy:This is related to the health of the fishery but not the same thing. Thermal releases won't make the river floatable during a dry spring like we're having. Recreational boating of all sorts (kayaking, canoeing, pontoons as well as drift boats) has been way, way down this year. And that's what a lot of people come to the Upper Delaware for, not just to hire guides and cast from a drift boat for a rising trout. Keeping more of the system floatable during peak season for the fishing industry up there would require bigger releases during the spring when the freestones are not supplying enough water. Like now. This seems to me like a tougher case to make. The city will want to hold on tight to its water during a dry spring, not knowing what summer will bring.

In my mind, the thermal releases are the low hanging fruit. They might not help the boating, but they'll keep the fish healthy and keep more water fishable longer, which will also help reduce the pressure on some parts of the system and will put money in the pockets of guides who can convince clients to wade from time to time. And the powers that be, whoever they are, seem more likely to agree to an increased release during, say, an occasional five day heat wave, than increased baseline releases.

my two cents as basically an outside observer of this debate.

Good points... It is an unusual weather pattern this year. However the point you left out is that the reservoirs are basically at normal levels. So why not cover the situation with a little more flow? FYI.. as I write this, Hancock is at 69 degrees and certainly the lowest reaches are at 70 dumping into junction. All this when the reservoirs are above 95% filled.

You share my view on thermal releases... They can spar water rather than 100% fixed releases. This is why they need to become part of the solution.
 
Last edited:
Hi Guys,

I am still waiting for an answer here. I just don't think May releases were anything near what they are now under FFMP.

Jim

---------

You're right Jim.

The smallmouth bass fishing has been phenomenal due to those FFMP releases of less than 275cfs and Montague way over 1750cfs.

Catches of 35+ fish on our half day charters down here.

Double it for full day.

Should be great for the next three months.

Many thanks!

----------

I hear Coz is now selling Ping, Taylor Made and Callaway - good call!
 
Jim... not the direct answer to your question but look at the historical values from 1952 forward for Stillesville. Obviously this includes spilling but in some regard the FFMP seeks to manage that as part of the plan so this is something of interest to look at. Certainly no conclusions can be made with regard to releases here.


Screen Shot 2015-06-12 at 7.37.14 AM.png
 


---------

You're right Jim.

The smallmouth bass fishing has been phenomenal due to those FFMP releases of less than 275cfs and Montague way over 1750cfs.

Catches of 35+ fish on our half day charters down here.

Double it for full day.

Should be great for the next three months.

Many thanks!

----------

I hear Coz is now selling Ping, Taylor Made and Callaway - good call!

It seems as if the Smallmouth fishery is prospering due to the actions of NYC. Should we lock NYC into protecting and enhancing the Smallmouth fishery? Long term, the promoting of fishing for Smallmouths, might offer guides and the local economy more security...
 
It seems as if the Smallmouth fishery is prospering due to the actions of NYC. Should we lock NYC into protecting and enhancing the Smallmouth fishery? Long term, the promoting of fishing for Smallmouths, might offer guides and the local economy more security...

---------

Smallmouth bass were not native to the Upper Delaware River.

Introduced in the late 1800's from the Ohio River drainage by Pennsylvania.

They're doing quite welll thanks to the FFMP!

FISH ON!


061215_A.jpg
 
Hey Tony,

can you recommend any shuttle services down your way

Thanks
 
---------

Smallmouth bass were not native to the Upper Delaware River.

Introduced in the late 1800's from the Ohio River drainage by Pennsylvania.

They're doing quite welll thanks to the FFMP!

FISH ON!


View attachment 11797


What's native? Brookies and shad. I think we should remove the dams entirely and restore the shad run to its former glory.
 
Wait a minute, your all forgetting about the almighty Dwarf Wedge Mussel.

What ever did happen to those poor little guys?

Someone figure out they tasted good over Linguini ?
 
Hi Guys,

I am still waiting for an answer here. I just don't think May releases were anything near what they are now under FFMP.

Jim

Sorry Jim, wasn't ducking you just a crazy week. Heading up to fish this evening tho so that is a positive. I don't want to give a short form , rushed answer and will post my thoughts in the next few days
 
Wait a minute, your all forgetting about the almighty Dwarf Wedge Mussel.

What ever did happen to those poor little guys?

Someone figure out they tasted good over Linguini ?

I think New York City secretly hired the tilapia farmer to go in and harvest them all so that they don't have to worry about protecting them with water releases any longer.
 
I think New York City secretly hired the tilapia farmer to go in and harvest them all so that they don't have to worry about protecting them with water releases any longer.

It's the same MIB that deleted all of the USGS data prior to 2007 on the Lackawaxen and Mongaup sites.

Now there is no way to prove that After PPL got re-licensed through FERC , and about the same time RIO came back online dumping water in tandem with Wallenpaupack (PPL) that there is less water needed by the Cannonsville to keep Montaque at 1750 CFS today
 
It's the same MIB that deleted all of the USGS data prior to 2007 on the Lackawaxen and Mongaup sites.

Now there is no way to prove that After PPL got re-licensed through FERC , and about the same time RIO came back online dumping water in tandem with Wallenpaupack (PPL) that there is less water needed by the Cannonsville to keep Montaque at 1750 CFS today

When The FERC relicensing occured for Wallenpaupak, they were given more water monthly to dump. They used to have a certain number on the reservoir that had to be the storage target. That number was increased which gave more water each individual month to generate power as long as they hit their target on the first of the month. It used to be posted on the website, but that has disapeared too.. Strike One.

At the same time, Rio came back on line and started generating power. The whitewater groups became an enjoiner on the FERC relicense as a condition of granting the license, they wanted more recreational water for their kayaks. They got it. Strike 2

The white water releases were staggered periodically throughout the season. Now one or the other is releasing every weekend. One weekend the release will come from Rio and the next out of Wallenpaupak so there goes our weekend releases. We used to get a release every weekend that they werent doing a whitewater release so on Thursday, I think, you would see a bump in flows. Strike 3

So now they release more water into the main stem then they used to, hence, less releases out of the upstream reservoirs, particularly Cannonsville, as NYC would hoard Pepacton's water for their use.

All in all, the fishing community got a screwing during the relicinsing of both downstream impoundments. The fishing community should have been a party to the relicense as that was about the time the thermal targets ended and the FFMP came into being.Personally, I liked every year renegotiating. I know they throw out the threat that we will go back to Rev. 1, but I dont think they would get away with that, as that would definitely expose the DWM beds and at least back then, we had a thermal component and every year, it was tweaked for the better.

Now there is nothing I hate more than looking at and comparing graphs so my observations are anecdotal, but, I've guided on the system 21 years and have seen some changes, especially now. I think this system presently is in trouble, but I'll save that for another rant, just to say anyone that fishes the WB, especially up top. knows what I mean.

I really dont know how NYC is now a weather forcaster, planning a month out when the National weather service isnt comfortable looking out past a week, but the OST, weather modeling tool was supposed to be the answer. I dont know the answer to this but that OST is guarded more than Fort Knox and NYCDEP wont give out a copy so we can see what the parameters are that they are using. They claim that they spent 5 million for the thing so they dont want to share the info that doesnt work. I bet they just flip a coin.

From what I understand, NYCDEP just got a pretty big grant and they plan on spending it all on the rivers coming into the reservoirs. Their present day capacity in no way is close to what it was when the built them. I assked Paul Rush from DEP waht he though the capacity was now and all he would say is, not what they used to be. They are filled with silt. We used to get a siltation dump into the river when the reservoir hit maybe around 20%. Now it's dumping silt at 86% and higher.
There are serious problems up there so much that all the town supervisors and state reps went to NY and testified as to the economic damage their mismanagement is doing. Hopefully, it will wake them up a little.
 
Very informative post Church and a very good point. The wb used to get bailed out often due to the fact it was a relied on source for montague target flows during the summer months. Now, not as often as you stated because of more water available above montague, but below the west thus meeting the montague target and/or providing alternative sources for montague targeted flows before the cannonsville dam gets the nod.
 
I need specifics to know who to support here, JC and others.

As of now, I think Joe.T's plan to release 1000 cfs is the best for the fishery, until somebody proves otherwise.
 
Back
Top