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So, if hydraulic fracturing isn't really the problem...

Future Fanatic

Future Fanatic

Nirvana
Since Dcabarle, the anti fracker, is bored with the fishing related stuff AND since it's been a while since I've posted anything about drilling...

What an interesting few weeks in the world of anti-fracking reality.

As you guys should remember, the anti gas drillers used the problems in Dimock, PA as the “evidence” that hydraulic fracturing was going to damage the aquifers around gas drilling sites throughout the area. I won’t bore you with all the details, but Dimock was the cornerstone of the argument that drilling should not be allowed in NY. Good, well meaning, environmentally-minded people saw the brown jugs of water and based upon what environmental organizations told them, spread the word, supported the cause and sent in their hard earned money, too.

I remember a thread here, with a photo of a jug of “Dimock” water and I posted “I wonder what is in that water”. A response was (basically) “are you kidding? look at it…”

The drilling company said there were no fracturing fluids in the water. The property owners and anti drilling environmentalists said they did not believe the drilling company because they were just protecting their profits and the PADEP needed to test it. The PA DEP did and said no fracturing chemicals were in it and it was safe to drink. The property owners and the anti drilling environmentalists said they did not believe it, that the DEP were in the pockets of the gas drilling companies and the EPA should get to Dimock and test the water.

They did. And the results, you guessed it, show the water is safe.

EPA: Water quality OK in Pa. gas drilling town | Press & Sun-Bulletin | pressconnects.com

Updated - EPA: Water quality OK at 20 more Dimock wells | Press & Sun-Bulletin | pressconnects.com

When defending hydraulic fracturing, I pointed to the 60 years of use, the million wells across the country and the research showing how safe it seemed to be. The antis always seemed to say the research was either done by the drilling companies or funded by biased entities.

Research came to pass that pointed to possible problems with hydraulic fracturing… Even though the research used some questionable strategies and made extreme assumptions, “AH, see…”
The anti drilling organizations said. But now it comes to light that the anti drilling organizations are funded (as was the research) by a foundation that is against drilling.

Power brokers: How the Ithaca-based Park Foundation is fueling the fight against fracking | The Ithaca Journal | theithacajournal.com

Can science be bought?: Opponents in fracking debate discredit each other's research | The Ithaca Journal | theithacajournal.com

But here’s the kick in the teeth…

When the anti drilling organizations spoke of the horrors of hydraulic fracturing, they pointed to the secret lists of hundreds of secret chemicals (which you can find online :) ) and the millions of gallons of water that need to be used and then disposed of.

Along comes a process that uses Propane gas (under pressure it becomes a liquid) that can be used to fracture the shale and then can be recovered 100%. Instead of supporting this process…

State urged to block propane-based fracking | Democrat and Chronicle | democratandchronicle.com

The push against drilling in NY by these environmental organizations is NOT because of hydraulic fracturing. They just used that as a means to scare and develop a base of supporters to stop drilling no matter how benign a process. I’ve been saying it forever, but now they have put the evidence in our faces. Science and time are working against them.
 
Hey John,

Do they say what was causing the water to turn brown?

Interesting article and should be fun to see the response now. I saw some other approaches being tested as well but not ready to be done on a massive scale. The question is will anything be accepted.
 
Lmao,,,,,,, Fanatic, Come to Pa an see what Fracking really does, we have had literally too many accidents an frackers doin what they want as well as dumpin frack water in streams that has caused enviromental damage,not to mention of gas coming into drinking water...My fiance's water was tested before Fracking and after they drilled just down the road..guess what their water was good before after fracking it is compromisedand polluted.
I Think you should do your homework more thorughly.I have two cabins in Clearfield County, lots of Frackin happening there an there are way too many violations, everything from frackers dumping waste water into streams to blowouts at the wells.
Its all fine an good when you want to make a buck off your land, but when it affects everyone else...thats just bad business an fucking stupid. I own 200 acres here, also quite a bit of land in Montana, No frackers allowed on my property for short sighted piss poorly thought out Resource Rape.
Remember one thing once its drilled ya cant take it back..just like stupid developement of farmland an woods....never will be as good as it once was.
Tight Wraps & Tight Lines
Rick Wallace
 
MACFLY said:
Hey John,

Do they say what was causing the water to turn brown?

Interesting article and should be fun to see the response now. I saw some other approaches being tested as well but not ready to be done on a massive scale. The question is will anything be accepted.
Click to expand...

Long answer:

I'll assume you've no experience with water wells.

MY well is about 225' down to the bottom. The water level is about 35' down. A pump is near the bottom of the well that pumps water to a "reservoir"
in my house. I believe that tank is eight gallons. When I open a faucet, the tank pushes its eight gallons to the faucet. When the water level in the tank gets low, it calls for water from the pump at the bottom of the well. Water flows into my well bore through natural fissures in the well bore wall. LONG story, less long... As told to me by my well driller, the meniscus of the water in my wellbore rises and falls along basically the same stretch of wellbore (up and down the well bore as I normally pull water into my house and Nature refills my well). BUT below the normal rise and fall of water in the well bore, the meniscus never touches. The sides of the well bore are never disturbed. NOW, let's say one had a wife who thought it important to water a 1/4 acre of flower beds or one forgot about a hose filling a water trough in the barn for an hour... In a well like mine in which the flow of water into my wellbore is slower than what an open faucet can take out, the meniscus drops to parts of the well bore that have been undisturbed for years. FINE silt is dislodged from the sides of the well by the passing up and down of the meniscus. MY water looks like Dimock water when this happens. SO?

The problem in Dimock had nothing to do with hydraulic fracturing. It was a bad casing job in the gas well. The concrete used to seal the gas well bore from the ground water was not done properly. Natural gas escaped the gas well bore, entered the ground water and pushed its way through the tiny fissures in people's water wells. I can envision what tiny bubbles of natural gas rising through the water column of the water well would do to all the silt resting along the well walls. Now gas in the water well is no laughing matter, but it is NOT toxic and poses NO threat to health, lest it explodes. Silt in the water is not toxic either. The drilling company screwed up, were held responsible monetarily and lessons were learned. Move on. But the Anti gas folks saw an opportunity and a cash cow! Josh Fox nearly rode that cow to an oscar! Hoodwinked, the good well meaning environmentally- minded people were. And the EPA is now showing us that. Have no fear, the anti crowd will find some way to discredit the EPA findings.

Gotta keep the money flowin' ;) (If not the gas)

Short answer: silt

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------
Lonewolve said:
.frackers doin what they want as well as dumpin frack water in streams that has caused enviromental damage,not to mention of gas coming into drinking water...My fiance's water was tested before Fracking and after they drilled just down the road..guess what their water was good before after fracking it is compromisedand polluted. I have two cabins in Clearfield County, lots of Frackin happening there an there are way too many violations, everything from frackers dumping waste water into streams to blowouts at the wells.
Click to expand...

I'd love to read about all the violations in Clearfield County. Can you point me to them? And in what way is your fiance's water "compromised and polluted"?

I'm glad I live in NY where the DEC is taking its time to develop regulations BEFORE they encounter the problems.
 
Lonewolve,

By now we are all fully aware of how many cabins you own on how many acres of land in western Pa.

If we don't, as a nation start exploiting our VAST! domestic energy supply we will forever be in an economic stranglehold by those nations that are extracting their own. The simple reality is that fossil fuels are the only answer for the foreseeable future, the so called alternative energies are decades away from being practical. Reasonably priced energy and food are the engine of our economy. The more we have to spend on gas , home heating oil, and food the less we have for discretionary spending on the things that keep the economy humming along, like fishing gear, vacations, drift boats ,home improvements...

The elected officials of Pa. have a fiduciary responsability to make sure these wells are operated correctly. If not, it is your duty as a resident to make sure they do! don't demonize the fracking industry because your states government isnt doing their job. If they dont step up then throw them out!

Hydro fracking is a blessing for us! its a fracking miracle! if we do it right we all win.
 
Before I decide if Fracking is safe and not harmfull, I need to see indepent research and data performed by an organization that is not affilliated with any Drilling or energy company as well as any grass roots organization that I am affiliated with. I also need to see true or false cases of issues with people's water and so on. I totally agree that we should say no to oil from the middle east, but before I say let's do it. I want to know if what we are going to do is safe and will in no way shape or form harm our natural resources and fisheries. Then and only then when those facts are shown and questions answered and cases studied from home owners issues are done and no issues found, will I support fracking. Until then, we need to not rush this issue and make sure all is well. If there are issues we have the brakes put on before we damage drinking water and harm natural resources forever (Hard to undue major mistakes made by man to the earth). So before we go all out, let's just make sure that we harm not one plant, animal or tree and that we don't destroy our water and any other natural resource along the way.
 
Well .. and I mean a drilling well.

Well.. .I use to be against it, but since I own property that I once hoped to turn into a fishing camp / club, now has something below ground that other's are willing to pay a lot more for that I paid for the property has got me thinking and reading more how they/me say it all is.

So far everything I have received point in the direction away from VooDoo science I have seen out there before.

I haven't really been faced with signing on the dotted line but my attorney assures me anything goes wrong the company will make it right.

So within the next few weeks I will most likely sign on.

Until all the scare tactics subside, and I see in the papers they provided where I am not at all financially at risk.

I worked hard and paid for this land and I see nothing wrong with it helping me plan for the future.
 
ak,,,,fracking actually stimulates the roast beef region of the female black bear..that means more male black bears roaming looking for whores..that means bigger populations of bears..and they get much more nasty competing for females..all because of fracking..just curious,,what do they base there calculations on paying a homeowner for there land? do they pay top dollar? i dont know much about this and my joking is because thats me..but from what little i do know it seems like a catch 22..
 
AKSkim said:
Well .. and I mean a drilling well.

Well.. .I use to be against it, but since I own property that I once hoped to turn into a fishing camp / club, now has something below ground that other's are willing to pay a lot more for that I paid for the property has got me thinking and reading more how they/me say it all is.

So far everything I have received point in the direction away from VooDoo science I have seen out there before.

I haven't really been faced with signing on the dotted line but my attorney assures me anything goes wrong the company will make it right.

So within the next few weeks I will most likely sign on.

Until all the scare tactics subside, and I see in the papers they provided where I am not at all financially at risk.

I worked hard and paid for this land and I see nothing wrong with it helping me plan for the future.
Click to expand...


AkSkim:

Say What, Please clarify this one.
 
WHOAAaa...

What's with all the hate?

I own the land (well me and the bank).

I am "well" within my rights to do what ever is best for me, my family, and my country.

Yes, my country....

Less reliant on foreign countries for energy.

Keep the American Dollar here in the US !

You people remind me of Uncle Joe and his scare tactics.

There is not a commie behind every drill rig.

This is CAPTIALISM pure and simple.
 
A Brasko Fly Tyer said:
Before I decide if Fracking is safe and not harmfull, I need to see indepent research and data performed by an organization that is not affilliated with any Drilling or energy company as well as any grass roots organization that I am affiliated with. I also need to see true or false cases of issues with people's water and so on. I totally agree that we should say no to oil from the middle east, but before I say let's do it. I want to know if what we are going to do is safe and will in no way shape or form harm our natural resources and fisheries. Then and only then when those facts are shown and questions answered and cases studied from home owners issues are done and no issues found, will I support fracking. Until then, we need to not rush this issue and make sure all is well. If there are issues we have the brakes put on before we damage drinking water and harm natural resources forever (Hard to undue major mistakes made by man to the earth). So before we go all out, let's just make sure that we harm not one plant, animal or tree and that we don't destroy our water and any other natural resource along the way.
Click to expand...

I agree with you Andy but we live in the real world. Any independent study would have some motivation behind it. How else would it be funded. Usually when funded by a pro or con origination the data becomes corrupt in favor of which side funded it. It sad to say but this one of those issues that only time will tell. I do know that producing our one energy is better then buying it from people that want to kill us.
 
One has to ask the larger question. If the EPA isn't objective then whose side are they on. As for the idea that one can create energy without impacting the environment to a certain extent, I submit that is an impossible task and frankly an unreasonable expectation. We should however ensure that the process is properly regulated and that remediation is done at tbe expense of the company and not the local Taxpayer.


tomfly said:
I agree with you Andy but we live in the real world. Any independent study would have some motivation behind it. How else would it be funded. Usually when funded by a pro or con origination the data becomes corrupt in favor of which side funded it. It sad to say but this one of those issues that only time will tell. I do know that producing our one energy is better then buying it from people that want to kill us.
Click to expand...
 
MACFLY said:
Perhaps he doesn't own any land with natural gas on it:)
Click to expand...

And NOW lonewolve gives me the "no thankyou for an un useful post"!

All I did was ask him to point me to where I could read about the problems in Clearfield County that he wrote of and to explain how his fiance's water was "compromised and polluted". How is THAT unuseful?

Hopefully, he is gathering that info and will get back to us. I don't doubt that there could be problems...
 
So wait, how is it that a failed well casing has nothing to do with hydraulic fracturing?
 
I guess that is theoretically possible, but this was a casing on a fracked well, that failed and caused serious problems.

Do we know why/how the bad casing in Dimock was not discovered until after it had failed? That seems to be the real issue.
 
I can't open it. That link seems dead. Is it something I can google and find on the interwebz?
 
I would like to see fracking fall under the federal Clean Water Act like all other natural resources extractions by removing the Halliburton loophole. Then groups like ours wouldn't need to fight so hard to have stronger state laws to protect our drinking water. I'm all for our nation to obtain as much of our own natural resources as possible in the safest possible ways, but fracking in states like PA is happening far faster than that state can keep up with.

I've said many times that the overwhelming majority of gas wells are likely to be safe, but those that aren't are capable of closing down entire towns. What if you lived and grew up in one of those towns? That's not going to be an issue for me here in NJ. Dimmick proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that better oversight is needed. A bad well casing led to unsafe drinking water. Say what you will about gas in your drinking water, it is not what I would call safe.

We should be opening more public lands for oil drilling, the extraction of which is relatively much safer than many other forms of energy. This POTUS has no interest in doing so, yet takes credit for the private lands drilling which is up during his term because of permits obtained years before he became our (1 term) President. And we know how to burn coal in safer ways than ever before, so we need to do even more of that as well. Nuclear is another good option; we know how to do that in safe ways and to avoid the tsunami issues that faced Japan last year with their nuclear plants. All natural resources extraction has inherent risks and environmental downsides and that even includes solar and wind, it comes down to how we manage those risks. Fracking, IMO, hasn't yet gotten rigorous enough protections in states like PA for my liking. Drinking water cannot be replaced and remains the limiting factor to sustaining human and other life on our planet.
 
Dr. Gonzo said:
I can't open it. That link seems dead. Is it something I can google and find on the interwebz?
Click to expand...

Try this:
http://marcellusdrilling.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/cabot-notice-of-violation-feb-27-2009.pdf

---------- Post added at 02:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 PM ----------
Rusty Spinner said:
Drinking water cannot be replaced and remains the limiting factor to sustaining human and other life on our planet.
Click to expand...

So....

GASFRAC - Our Proprietary Process
 
AKSkim said:
WHOAAaa...

What's with all the hate?

I own the land (well me and the bank).

I am "well" within my rights to do what ever is best for me, my family, and my country.

Yes, my country....

Less reliant on foreign countries for energy.

Keep the American Dollar here in the US !

You people remind me of Uncle Joe and his scare tactics.

There is not a commie behind every drill rig.

This is CAPTIALISM pure and simple.
Click to expand...
got dubbing?
 
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