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So, if hydraulic fracturing isn't really the problem...
- Thread starter Future Fanatic
- Start date
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
You know what's missing in this thread?
The regular antis explaining why the propane fracturing process is bad for our water supplies and needs to be halted.
I've looked on some of the anti fracking environmental websites and haven't seen the rationale.
Maybe I shoulda looked harder.
Maybe they haven't handed out the talking points yet either.
HINT: it's not bad for the water supplies, but the antis have hitched their anti drilling(keeping the economic reality the way it is)fear mongering campaign to the demise of water and THAT works for them....
The regular antis explaining why the propane fracturing process is bad for our water supplies and needs to be halted.
I've looked on some of the anti fracking environmental websites and haven't seen the rationale.
Maybe I shoulda looked harder.
Maybe they haven't handed out the talking points yet either.
HINT: it's not bad for the water supplies, but the antis have hitched their anti drilling(keeping the economic reality the way it is)fear mongering campaign to the demise of water and THAT works for them....
I am with you FF.
I know everytime I look at my bank statement I also don't see their rationale at all either.
Dr. Gonzo
Stuck in my cabana, livin on bananas and blow.
I looked at the document you provided (thanks!). it doesn't have anything specific about how the failure occurred and whether there were any warning signs before the failure occurred. I am very interested to know the who, what, where, why and how but I am running off to court so it will have to wait....
So a failed well casing that contaminates the aquifer is not bad for the water supply? I think I understand your point, tell me if I am right.
That the fracking process is not inherently dangerous. If it is done without any errors, negligence, or corner cutting, it will not contaminate the aquifers in the marcellus shale.
What happens in the case of human error, industry cutting corners, and negligence? Assuming the cause of the failed casing is a product of one or more of these factors then Dimock is an example of that. (as of now I don't know what caused it so I can't be more specific).
My point is that you can't assess the inherent risks of a process (i.e. fracking) without looking at the consequences of factors.
Corner cutting is commonplace in all industries, and fracking is no exception. Environmental costs are additional, external costs that the industry will always try to minimize in order to maximize profit. The purpose of environmental regulation is to ensure that these companies internalize the cost associated with best management practices, safety controls and other measures to minimize risk.
Negligence cannot be regulated against because it is an unintentional failure to do something that you're supposed to do (intentional failure would be wilful conduct, totally different from negligence). The only way to deal with negligence is to impose appropriate liability to recover the costs of damages caused by the negligent conduct of a person (or corporation). Problems arise when you're dealing with irreplaceable resources like fresh potable water - money cannot compensate for destruction of resources.
Human error is similar to negligence in that it can't be regulated against.
So a failed well casing that contaminates the aquifer is not bad for the water supply? I think I understand your point, tell me if I am right.
That the fracking process is not inherently dangerous. If it is done without any errors, negligence, or corner cutting, it will not contaminate the aquifers in the marcellus shale.
What happens in the case of human error, industry cutting corners, and negligence? Assuming the cause of the failed casing is a product of one or more of these factors then Dimock is an example of that. (as of now I don't know what caused it so I can't be more specific).
My point is that you can't assess the inherent risks of a process (i.e. fracking) without looking at the consequences of factors.
Corner cutting is commonplace in all industries, and fracking is no exception. Environmental costs are additional, external costs that the industry will always try to minimize in order to maximize profit. The purpose of environmental regulation is to ensure that these companies internalize the cost associated with best management practices, safety controls and other measures to minimize risk.
Negligence cannot be regulated against because it is an unintentional failure to do something that you're supposed to do (intentional failure would be wilful conduct, totally different from negligence). The only way to deal with negligence is to impose appropriate liability to recover the costs of damages caused by the negligent conduct of a person (or corporation). Problems arise when you're dealing with irreplaceable resources like fresh potable water - money cannot compensate for destruction of resources.
Human error is similar to negligence in that it can't be regulated against.
Here is where I am going to have to disagree with your point.
Yes money can compensate.
I think FF and I will take a page out of Rachel Carson's book SILENT SPRING and when our land is trashed,
we will take the money and run to Virginia, just like Rachel did.
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
10 to 20 years with good behavior?
I don't have time right now to respond, but check this out:
http://www.kgs.ku.edu/PRS/Fracturing/Frac_Paper_SPE_152596.pdf
LOTS of GOOD information.
And the NYDEC learned:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/energy/75410.html
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Dr. Gonzo
Stuck in my cabana, livin on bananas and blow.
I tried reading your link but I stopped on page 2 they come right out and say that they are assuming that all wells are properly constructed and there are no design flaws/defects....Sorry but that's only a risk assessment of best case scenarios.
I'll try to find time to read the rest but as far as I am concerned you need to evaluate ALL risk factors to arrive at an honest assessment of what is at stake. But then again, I am a tree-hugger.
I'll try to find time to read the rest but as far as I am concerned you need to evaluate ALL risk factors to arrive at an honest assessment of what is at stake. But then again, I am a tree-hugger.
Also a tree-hugger. Back when Chenney was president, fracking was excused to comply with the clean water act though the massive lobbying efforts of company's that were standing to make enormous profits fracking. Every time I find myself leaning toward being more open about fracking, I remember that and go back to being very wary and suspicious of it.
BIGBOW
Wilderness Fanatic
Not so sure the risk-reward scenario is worth it obtaining fossil fuels this way. Im still waiting for us to move away from these types of energy methods. As a country, its primarily our reliance on petroleum that lead to our economic collapse. It drives the price for almost all consumer goods in one way or another, it drives foriegn affair decisions (Iraq), and drives us into trillions of dollars of debt each year to countries we shouldnt be doing bussiness with in the first place (and have the furthest idealisms from a democracy possible). Look at places like Sweden and Iceland that have turned to green energy techniques (solar, wind, and thermo powers) and have flipped their economies into some of the strongest in the world. Investors and companies worldwide are lined up to get involved in their energy programs, which has helped both countries strengthen their economies by relieving debt and producing job growth. My problem is not so much with fracking, but the fact that we continue to diminish natural resources knowing one day they will be gone and at the same time continue to punish our environment by using these outdated methods. I think its time we truly focus on creating a green economy and energy of our own rather than relying on foriegn petroleum deposits (and our own for that matter). We need to recreate our power grid to reach our wind and solar regions of the country, make federal regulations on transporting eneregy instead of every state reg opposing their neighboring state's regs, and we need to get Americans back to work for these green companies that are waiting for this power grid and federal regs to lift so they can create these jobs, attract foriegn investors, and get the wheels moving in a different ecomomic direction than we've been heading. It will take some money to get started, but once Americans and our politicians get on board, it will ultimately lift our debt and get our econmoy back to one of the world's strongest. Our nation continues to lend and give away money to foriegn nations and spend, spend, spend on some of the dumbest things possible. Why not spend the money to back a govt plan of action to bring America back to where it belongs and once was.. a world leader. I've attended some seminars on this topic, as well as read a few books and articles. I wish more Americans would educate themselves with this type of info so we can give our govt and energy companies the push they need.
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