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Should land owners be responsible?

Should landowners be responsible?


  • Total voters
    17
You seem to put a lot of faith in an obviously corrupt political system...
The insurance policy sound like a good idea....

Can I get an Alpaca sweater from you?:)

The state has also been screwing you with unnecessary taxation, they've been doing it for over sixty years and over many trillion dollars......

Why do you say that is "obviously corrupt political system"?
I have a lot of faith in the DEC. The commissioner is an appointed position, BUT, I have a lot of faith in the people who "work" there. I believe that when they were looking for jobs, they didn't CHOOSE to work at the DEC for money and glory, but to protect the environment as best they could. That, in part, is a reason I trust that if the DEC says that hydraulic fracturing can be done safely, it can.
 
In most cases, the parties to a contract can allocate risk as they see
fit.

In the absence of clear contractual language that allocates risk amongst the parties, a court would consider 1. Which party iis better able to assess and minimize the risk involved and 2. Which party has the deeper pockets and could afford to pay.

In the case of fracking, the gas ccompanies would be held liable in the absence of any contractual language addressing the issue, because they are better able to assess the risks involved in the extraction process. They also have deep pockets.

In the example from an earlier post in this thread, a landowner was held liable for the removal of trees by a contractor he hired. Somebody else, apparently, owned the trees that were removed!

That situation is totally different from fracking. Why? Because the risk involved (that the trees were not within the landowner's property lines) was the landowner's (he should have known his property lines), and not he contractor. If the court held the contractor liable, tree removal companies would have to get their hands on surveys (potentially costly) before doing their work (which seems unnecessary since most landowner's know their property lines).

If an activity were "inherently dangerous," then a court might still hold a landowner liable for damage done by a contractor doing work on or around his property.

For the sake of legal analysis, fracking iis not inherently dangerous. Therefore, landowners will not be held liable for damages done by gas cOmpanies, unless there were extraordinary circumstances.

This isn't legal advice. I was a failed attorney. You would be a fool to rely on this post for anything other than entertainment value...
 
Why do you say that is "obviously corrupt political system"?
I have a lot of faith in the DEC. The commissioner is an appointed position, BUT, I have a lot of faith in the people who "work" there. I believe that when they were looking for jobs, they didn't CHOOSE to work at the DEC for money and glory, but to protect the environment as best they could. That, in part, is a reason I trust that if the DEC says that hydraulic fracturing can be done safely, it can.

I fully agree the people that work there are stand-up people and truly care.
But you seem like quite an intelligent fellow, and the political machine is bigger than the DEC, and I am sure their decisions are swayed by the larger government entities.
I am a chef, and make the best food I possibly can in the environment provided by my owner. The DEC makes the best decision they can in the political environment they exist in.
If money is to be made......

and you didn't answer the most important question...how about that sweater?
 
We could make a trade, but I need to see the sweater first..:)

You should plan to attend this: Taste of the Catskills Festival - Welcome! Oct. 8-9

The Taste of the Catskills Festival is a family-friendly event that showcases the food, beer, and wine of our region. With a variety of vendors including farmers, value-added food producers, and restaurants, attendees learn how food travels from farm to fork during a fun-filled autumn weekend on the grounds of Maple Shade Farm, a family-run farm in Delhi.

There are lots of kid’s activities each day. The activities will highlight life on the farm. A lot of the live music is geared toward children.

Workshops each day teach attendees tricks for farming, cooking, brewing, and vintning.

The main activities are held under tents and in the barn, so the show will go on RAIN OR SHINE!!!

I think you, as a chef, might appreciate seeing what the region has to offer in terms of food and libations.
Our farm is a vendor there.
 
In most cases, the parties to a contract can allocate risk as they see
fit.

In the absence of clear contractual language that allocates risk amongst the parties, a court would consider 1. Which party iis better able to assess and minimize the risk involved and 2. Which party has the deeper pockets and could afford to pay.

In the case of fracking, the gas ccompanies would be held liable in the absence of any contractual language addressing the issue, because they are better able to assess the risks involved in the extraction process. They also have deep pockets.

In the example from an earlier post in this thread, a landowner was held liable for the removal of trees by a contractor he hired. Somebody else, apparently, owned the trees that were removed!

That situation is totally different from fracking. Why? Because the risk involved (that the trees were not within the landowner's property lines) was the landowner's (he should have known his property lines), and not he contractor. If the court held the contractor liable, tree removal companies would have to get their hands on surveys (potentially costly) before doing their work (which seems unnecessary since most landowner's know their property lines).

If an activity were "inherently dangerous," then a court might still hold a landowner liable for damage done by a contractor doing work on or around his property.

For the sake of legal analysis, fracking iis not inherently dangerous. Therefore, landowners will not be held liable for damages done by gas cOmpanies, unless there were extraordinary circumstances.

This isn't legal advice. I was a failed attorney. You would be a fool to rely on this post for anything other than entertainment value...

Dude...Shut up...really....if you were not a complete failure as an attorney someone might listen........ and you ARE a failed attorney....not WERE...... You will always be.....until you are successful which is never going to happen.....
 
You should plan to attend this: Taste of the Catskills Festival - Welcome! Oct. 8-9

The Taste of the Catskills Festival is a family-friendly event that showcases the food, beer, and wine of our region. With a variety of vendors including farmers, value-added food producers, and restaurants, attendees learn how food travels from farm to fork during a fun-filled autumn weekend on the grounds of Maple Shade Farm, a family-run farm in Delhi.

There are lots of kid’s activities each day. The activities will highlight life on the farm. A lot of the live music is geared toward children.

Workshops each day teach attendees tricks for farming, cooking, brewing, and vintning.

The main activities are held under tents and in the barn, so the show will go on RAIN OR SHINE!!!

I think you, as a chef, might appreciate seeing what the region has to offer in terms of food and libations.
Our farm is a vendor there.

I may actually be able to make a day trip on Monday..Thanks I will look for you if I can work it out...We can debate fracking and the government or just shoot the shit and look a sweaters. What is the name of your farm?
 
I may actually be able to make a day trip on Monday..Thanks I will look for you if I can work it out...We can debate fracking and the government or just shoot the shit and look a sweaters. What is the name of your farm?

We've got four months to work out the details. Let's not rush it...you'll probably hate me by then...
 
You knowingly put toxins in the air with your vehicle. Are you evil?

People know the risks that are attributed to car emissions. Contaminates that could be introduced into a water supply due to Fracking would be undisclosed at the point of introduction. Would you send a letter to all that use the aquifer warning those of the potential danger?
 
Tom,

Your car runs on gasoline (if you still have one of those oldies). Everytime you start your car, toxic fumes are released into the air. Nobody forces you to put gas in your car but you do. Shouuld you be held responsible for the toxins your car releases into the air?

I'm against fracking too but as I've already mentioned, because it ruins the landscape.

People know the risks that are attributed to car emissions. Fracking compounds introduced into the water supply would not be disclosed. If they were the people on the aquifer would have something to say about it.

I am not against Fracking but if the long term implications could potentially out way the short term benefits. That is just makes no sense to me. Benzene is bad stuff; it is one of the suspected chemicals that shorten my parent’s lives.
 
People know the risks that are attributed to car emissions. Contaminates that could be introduced into a water supply due to Fracking would be undisclosed at the point of introduction. Would you send a letter to all that use the aquifer warning those of the potential danger?

So YOUR justification for why vehicle emissions are ok is because people know what they are?

Undisclosed? Home | FracFocus Chemical Disclosure Registry

IN NY, the DEC will know EVERYTHING that goes done the bore: From the DGEIS:

For every well permit application the Department would require, as part of the EAF Addendum,
identification of additive products, by product name and purpose/type, and proposed percent by
weight of water, proppants and each additive. This would allow the Department to determine
whether the proposed fracturing fluid is water-based and generally similar to the fluid
represented by Figures 5.3, 5.4, and 5.5. Additionally, the anticipated volume of each additive
product proposed for use would be required as part of the EAF Addendum. Beyond providing
information about the quantity of each additive product to be utilized, this requirement informs
the Department of the approximate quantity of each additive product that would be on-site for
each high-volume hydraulic fracturing operation.
The Department would also require the submittal of an MSDS for every additive product
proposed for use, unless the MSDS for a particular product is already on file as a result of the
disclosure provided during the preparation process of this SGEIS (as discussed in Chapter 5) or
during the application process for a previous well permit. Submittal of product MSDSs would
provide the Department with the identities, properties and effects of the hazardous chemical
constituents within each additive proposed for use.
Finally, the Department proposes to require that the application materials (i) document the
applicant‟s evaluation of available alternatives for the proposed additive products that are
efficacious but which exhibit reduced aquatic toxicity and pose less risk to water resources and
the environment and (ii) contain a statement that the applicant will utilize such alternatives,
unless it demonstrates to DMN's satisfaction that they are not equally effective or feasible. The
evaluation criteria should include (1) impact to the environment caused by the additive product if
it remains in the environment, (2) the toxicity and mobility of the available alternatives, (3)
persistence in the environment, (4) effectiveness of the available alternative to achieve desired
results in the engineered fluid system and (5) feasibility of implementing the alternative.
In addition to the above requirements for well permit applications, the Department would
continue its practice of requiring hydraulic fracturing information, including identification of
Revised Draft SGEIS 2011, Page 8-31
materials and volumes of materials utilized, on the well completion report22 which is required, in
accordance with 6 NYCRR §554.7, to be submitted to the Department within 30 days after the
completion of any well. This requirement can be utilized by Department staff to verify that only
those additive products proposed at the time of application, or subsequently proposed and
approved prior to use, were utilized in a given high-volume hydraulic fracturing operation.
The Department has the authority to require, at any time, the disclosure of any additional
additive product composition information it deems necessary to ensure that environmental
protection and public health and safe drinking water objectives are met, or to respond to an
environmental or public health and safety concern. This authority includes the ability to require
the disclosure of information considered to be trade secret, so long as such information is
handled in accordance with the New York State Public Officer‟s Law, POL§89(5), and the
Department‟s Records Access Regulations, 6 NYCRR §616.7.
 
Like deja vu...
If my state says the process can be done safely... then I will consider it safe. Could an accident happen? SURE, as it can in MANY other industrial activities... If my state says that I can be held responsible for damages due to negligence of the drilling company or some accident, then of course I would be. I would be sure to protect my self with an insurance policy that would cover any unfortunate accident or contractor error that my state might deem me responsible for.

Of course, how many deaths and sicknesses are attributed to the fracking industry? They've been doing it for sixty years, over a million wells...

FF you and I always have a friendly debates and I do enjoy them. It keeps my mind sharp. I just know that if decisions that were made by me inversely affected the lives of others due to illness or loss. I would be devastated by that.
Just some friendly advice, look at all the data.. Research the areas that this has been in place for a while. Speak to people that supposable have been negatively impacted by Fracking. Look at the water tests. Look for any odd anomalies in health statistics. The parties on both sides have their own agenda. Draw you conclusion on facts not assumptions. That is how I would I would approach it .Just remember it is like shooting a gun once you pull the trigger you can never take that back.
 
FF you and I always have a friendly debates and I do enjoy them. It keeps my mind sharp. I just know that if decisions that were made by me inversely affected the lives of others due to illness or loss. I would be devastated by that.
Just some friendly advice, look at all the data.. Research the areas that this has been in place for a while. Speak to people that supposable have been negatively impacted by Fracking. Look at the water tests. Look for any odd anomalies in health statistics. The parties on both sides have their own agenda. Draw you conclusion on facts not assumptions. That is how I would I would approach it .Just remember it is like shooting a gun once you pull the trigger you can never take that back.

Tomfly,
Fracking has been going on for decades. The data should be piled up high if it has affected the health of people, yes?
 
?
That's just it...there are no piles of data showing peoples' health being affected. In the 2004 epa study, they found NO evidence that hydraulic fracturing contaminated water wells. HERE: pages 13-17.http:


http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/uic/pdfs/cbmstudy_attach_uic_exec_summ.pdf[/QUOT

I am very cynical when it comes to Government Data. IT has proven to be subjective in the past. Just look at how safe Agent Orange was. For Vietnam vets not to mention solders and sailors that were exposed to radiation at bikini atoll and the proving grounds in Nevada. How did “don’t worry it’s safe work out for them”? Like I said; weigh all the data not just government data.
 
Beside the Hold Harmless agreement and Indemnification agreement, which should be in your lease, you should also be named as an additional insured on the drilling company policy, this policy is usually in the multiple millions in coverage.
 
IMHO: The poll is flawed. The worst case for the landowner should be "shared responsibility". The poll does not have this option.

Are you seriously suggesting that if remediation is necessary, you'd let the driller off the hook? The driller was the party that actually "did the deed", and is most likely to have the resources to do the remediation.

Assume the landowner alone is held responsible....
  • The landowner goes bankrupt after his liquid (cash) assets are gone, and his insurance money is exhausted.......
    So..... they seize his other assets.
    His main "other asset" is contaminated land...
    Good luck with that!
If the purpose of this topic, is just to give FF & Kilgore a hard time, have fun.
But If you're serious, and the courts are stupid enough to agree, the remediation (if any), will be borne by the taxpayer.
 
IMHO: The poll is flawed. The worst case for the landowner should be "shared responsibility". The poll does not have this option.

Are you seriously suggesting that if remediation is necessary, you'd let the driller off the hook? The driller was the party that actually "did the deed", and is most likely to have the resources to do the remediation.

Assume the landowner alone is held responsible....
  • The landowner goes bankrupt after his liquid (cash) assets are gone, and his insurance money is exhausted.......
    So..... they seize his other assets.
    His main "other asset" is contaminated land...
    Good luck with that!
If the purpose of this topic, is just to give FF & Kilgore a hard time, have fun.
But If you're serious, and the courts are stupid enough to agree, the remediation (if any), will be borne by the taxpayer.

My bad I agree I should have put the option in
 
Last edited:
?
That's just it...there are no piles of data showing peoples' health being affected. In the 2004 epa study, they found NO evidence that hydraulic fracturing contaminated water wells. HERE: pages 13-17.http:


http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/uic/pdfs/cbmstudy_attach_uic_exec_summ.pdf

The EPA contradicts it own findings That FF posted

"TECHNICAL MEMORANDUM
April 30, 2012
Review of DRAFT: Investigation of Ground Water Contamination near Pavillion Wyoming
Prepared by the Environmental Protection Agency, Ada OK
Prepared by: Tom Myers, Ph.D.
Hydrologic Consultant
Reno NV
SUMMARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS
After consideration of the evidence presented in the EPA report and in URS (2009 and 2010), it is clear that hydraulic fracturing (fracking (Kramer 2011)) has caused pollution of the Wind River formation and aquifer. The EPA documents that pollution with up to four sample events in the domestic water wells and two sample events in two monitoring well constructed by the EPA between the level of the domestic water wells and the gas production zone. The EPA’s conclusion is sound.
Three factors combine to make Pavillion-area aquifers especially vulnerable to vertical contaminant transport from the gas production zone or the gas wells – the geology, the well design, and the well construction. Natural flow barriers are not prevalent in this area, so there are likely many pathways for gas and contaminants to move to the surface, regardless of the source. There is also a vertical gradient, evidenced by flowing water wells, although its magnitude and extend are undefined, to drive advective vertical transport. The entire formation is considered an underground source of drinking water, but 169 gas wells have been constructed into it; this is fracking fluid injection directly into an underground source of drinking water.
The well design is poor because the surface casing does not extend below the level of the water wells, as is required in many other states, and because the wells contain substantial borehole lengths without surface casing or cement between the production casing and the edge of the borehole. This allows vertical transport of gas and fluids and decreases the protection against leakage during fracking or gas production. Third, the EPA documented many instances of sporadic bonding, which simply means the cement does not completely seal the annulus between the production casing and the edge of the borehole. This provides pathways which could allow gas and contaminant transport along the well bore.
The EPA also appropriately accounted for the potential that their monitoring well construction could have explained the contamination. “Since inorganic and organic concentration patterns measured in the drilling additives do not match patterns observed in the deep monitoring wells and because large volumes of ground water were extracted from the wells during development and prior to sampling, it is unlikely that ground-water chemistry was at all impacted by drilling additives.”(EPA, 2011, p 7)."

Here is some recent info on well Contamination. It does happen more then the gas industry tells you it does .

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/02/u...fracturing-a-battle-over-water-pollution.html

Independent Analysis Confirms That Hydraulic Fracturing Caused Drinking Water Contamination In Wyoming | ThinkProgress
 
When it comes to environmental liability under federal law, you as the landowner can't typically avoid liability through a contract with the drilling company. Federal Law (Superfund, clean water act, etc) supersedes State Law (contract law, real property law) through the supremacy clause of the US Constitution. So you can use contract law to get someone to agree to assume the responsibility of INDEMNIFYING you against your liability (this is what insurance does); but you can never contract out of your liability completely.

When contamination is discovered on a property, the Government identifies the parties who are potentially responsible for the contamination. This includes any previous owners, contractors (e.g. drillers), corporate parents of the drilling companies, successor corporations who purchased the assets and liabilities of the companies involved with the site and many other types of entities that I won't explain here.

You can enter into any contract you want but if the insurance company, the drilling company or whoever the other party is (who has supposedly assumed your liability) refuses to pay - for any reason including bankruptcy - you could have to pay the total cost of cleanup. This is because Superfund Law operates under the theory of Joint and Several Liability. This means every person who is liable for the contamination is liable for up 100% of the cost. If more than one person (or corporation) is identified the court will spread the liability based on each person's degree of guiltiness (this is called apportionment).

Keep in mind also that Superfund law also imposes STRICT LIABILITY which means that it's not good enough to say you didn't mean to do it, or you didn't know it would happen.

Under Superfund, even if you sell your contaminated land (whether you know its contaminated or not) to someone else you will still be liable for remediation costs and possibly "environmental resource damages."

This may seem harsh but it is absolutely necessary to ensure that contaminated properties get cleaned up. By imposing liability and apportioning fault on a number of parties, the system when it works properly ensures that everyone who is responsible pays their fair share.

If this scares you GOOD. Destroying the ecosystem is a serious matter that should not be taken lightly.

And on that note i want all of you landowners out there to thank your lucky stars (and Dick Cheney and the 2004 US Congress) that

FRACKING IS EXEMPTED FROM SUPERFUND LAW
 
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