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Protect The Delaware River!!!!!

Brian,

I'm glad I saved the message below. This was from you a couple of months ago when you needed assistance with your monitoring, which I immediately provided, giving you all the info and procedures we spent years developing. And this is the thanks I get. I guess my help then was just another way of poking a stick in TU's eye, right?

I especially note your congratulations for my work on the Pequannock.

What a two-faced jerk you turned out to be.


Ross,
<O:p</O:p
I met with Danielle yesterday about TU’s Musconetcong Home Rivers Initiative and we talked at length about various water monitoring issues related to the Musky. One of the areas that TU has been strong in over the past many years on the Musky is water temp recording with data loggers in the river. We are planning to add 6 more stations this spring and Danielle asked that I contact you to see how you are set up from a quality assurance aspect. She would like for us to mirror your program so that we become the Musky experts in this area by certifying our data.

Please email or call me when your schedule permits and I’ll come to your office (?) to review what you are doing on the Pequannock. I hope that this is not a big imposition – I have no idea what is involved at this point.

Thank you,
<O:p</O:p
Brian

PS – Congratulations on your EPA award! It really is a testimony to the work you have done to protect “my” river! Great job.

Brian Cowden
Home <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
><st1:PlaceName w:st=
Musconetcong</st1:placeName> <st1:placeType w:st=" /><st1:placeType w:st="on">River</st1:placeType>

Initiative Project Coordinator
 
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Ross,

You sunk pretty low here! I was asked by the DEP to use your model for temperature data collecting so Danielle would not have to start from scratch with me on the Musky. For that I remain in debt to you. I have and continue to praise your good works on the P, both publicly and privately. Where on this thread did I attack your work??? I simply stated that in 13 years of fighting a big city (Newark) you have seen firsthand how difficult these issues can be. Nobody takes you to task for not getting better flows sooner yet you take TU to task over this very same issue publicly all the time.

Now I ask you, who is the jerk here?

Brian
 
Ross,

You sunk pretty low here! I was asked by the DEP to use your model for temperature data collecting so Danielle would not have to start from scratch with me on the Musky. For that I remain in debt to you. I have and continue to praise your good works on the P, both publicly and privately. Where on this thread did I attack your work??? I simply stated that in 13 years of fighting a big city (Newark) you have seen firsthand how difficult these issues can be. Nobody takes you to task for not getting better flows sooner yet you take TU to task over this very same issue publicly all the time.

Now I ask you, who is the jerk here?

Brian

Really?????

"...remember that we all know where your skeletons are but so far we have NOT placed you on the defensive - 'nuff said"

"...all you like to do when it comes to TU is poke a stick in our eyes."

Maybe its just me, but when I am in debt to someone, I don't accuse them of poking me in the eye and I don't make thinly veiled threats about them. I was raised a bit different. Sorry, but YOU are the jerk here.

The fact is I hope and pray every day that someone will give me a suggestion that will help me to get better flows on the Pequannock sooner. Do you have any? I would love to hear them. And if you have constructive criticism I'm ready for that, too. Hey, I have made mistakes and I will make more. I am no genius and far from perfect. I will take all the ideas and brainstorms I can get.

But when anyone suggests that TU should do more, do better or do differently I see the wagons circle and the rifles come out. That's just wrong.
 
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Sorry, but YOU are the jerk here.

Didn't this start out over on NJCarp....

Maybe it was best left over there.

Case you have forgotten, this is NEFF, and what you all talked about and did over on NJCarp was your business.

Not here. Not now.

Case you didn't get the message Mr. Ross, that was just a warning shot across your bow.

Just let it rest.
 
Really?????

"...remember that we all know where your skeletons are but so far we have NOT placed you on the defensive - 'nuff said"

"...all you like to do when it comes to TU is poke a stick in our eyes."

Maybe its just me, but when I am in debt to someone, I don't accuse them of poking me in the eye and I don't make thinly veiled threats about them. I was raised a bit different. Sorry, but YOU are the jerk here.

The fact is I hope and pray every day that someone will give me a suggestion that will help me to get better flows on the Pequannock sooner. Do you have any? I would love to hear them. And if you have constructive criticism I'm ready for that, too. Hey, I have made mistakes and I will make more. I am no genius and far from perfect. I will take all the ideas and brainstorms I can get.

But when anyone suggests that TU should do more, do better or do differently I see the wagons circle and the rifles come out. That's just wrong.

And so we disagree and we move on. Or at least I move on...your mileage my vary.
 
This is not directed at any one person or group.

This started as a very informative thread that has turned into a finger pointing, breast beating "I've (We've) done this and you haven't done anything" PITA to read.

All this finger pointing is wonderful (when you point a finger at someone there are three pointing back at you) BUT let's stop trying to lay blame. Let's just go forward and figure out how to correct this mess.

I'm not a TU member or any other group nor have I ever fished the Delaware (that I can remember) but a river is a river. As has been mentioned in an earlier post contact those groups directly and report back to us what they say, ALL the alaphabet groups not just the ones that are your current "Whipping Boy"!

While all this is going on fish are dying as is the 'rock snot'. Wait a minute...maybe this is all part of a master plan to eliminate it from the river.
(I don't use the smilies but if I did one would be here.)

Again, let's get this back on track and try to save a river.

Wayne
 
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Didn't this start out over on NJCarp....t.
No, a similar discussion was LOCKED at TST, before it could really get started.

I suggested that Ross be invited here to see if he had anything to contribute.
Reading between the personality clashes .......... he has made some interesting suggestions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​
Ross, Brian, Agust Rick:

Take a breath. The kids hate it when the grownups fight.
 
I suggested that Ross be invited here to see if he had anything to contribute......

Lordy.. lordy.. lordy.. what have we here.

.............and Pete.. you call me a trouble maker.... hahaha..

I have to print your post out and frame it....
 
No, a similar discussion was LOCKED at TST, before it could really get started.

I suggested that Ross be invited here to see if he had anything to contribute.
Reading between the personality clashes .......... he has made some interesting suggestions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​
Ross, Brian, Agust Rick:

Take a breath. The kids hate it when the grownups fight.

No problem for me. Lets move on.

IMHO this is a great time to host a public meeting on exactly that topic - where do we go from here. I don't know how many folks are planning to go to Trenton on 9/24 but that might be a good opportunity with most of the players in one place.
 
Ross,

I agree - let's bury the hatchet and focus on the Trenton meeting on the 24th. I know from PMs that there is some talk about carpools down to Trenton that day. I will volunteer my office in Hackettstown as one site we can meet at. Perhaps others in the NE, central or other parts of the state (as well as PA and NY) pull together the same.

Just an FYI that there is scuttlebut from the DRBC that this meeting will be postponed until December (not the meeting itself, but the vote on the FFMP). Seems not all Decree parties are on the same page and if you noticed, they always vote unanimously meaning they work things out in "back rooms". Let's see what the sub-committee comes up with in their (closed door, I think) meeting on the 16th. We may need to reschedule our efforts into December. If anyone gets that same info, please post it here. We hear from various contacts unnamed publicly that this current flow plan under the FFMP is a recognized embarrasment and efforts are well underway to come up with a better flow plan to protect the upper river's habitat (and therefor its trout we all love so much). Let's see what they offer up if my information is accurate. Again, I am not representing any official position(s) from TU national, this is just me talking.
 
Ross,

I agree - let's bury the hatchet and focus on the Trenton meeting on the 24th. I know from PMs that there is some talk about carpools down to Trenton that day. I will volunteer my office in Hackettstown as one site we can meet at. Perhaps others in the NE, central or other parts of the state (as well as PA and NY) pull together the same.

Just an FYI that there is scuttlebut from the DRBC that this meeting will be postponed until December (not the meeting itself, but the vote on the FFMP). Seems not all Decree parties are on the same page and if you noticed, they always vote unanimously meaning they work things out in "back rooms". Let's see what the sub-committee comes up with in their (closed door, I think) meeting on the 16th. We may need to reschedule our efforts into December. If anyone gets that same info, please post it here. We hear from various contacts unnamed publicly that this current flow plan under the FFMP is a recognized embarrasment and efforts are well underway to come up with a better flow plan to protect the upper river's habitat (and therefor its trout we all love so much). Let's see what they offer up if my information is accurate. Again, I am not representing any official position(s) from TU national, this is just me talking.

I can probably get us space in Trenton. That should be more convenient. Problem is, 8 days is not a lot of time to plan. From what I am hearing the DRBC will be meeting on the 24th, only the agenda is undecided. Lets just get there, put forth a strong presence and see what happens. What time is the DRBC meeting and where is it?
 
Sept. 24th DRBC meeting to be held at West Trenton Volunteer Fire Company at 10:30 a.m. at 40 West Upper Ferry Road, Trenton. That is the business meeting, but the public is allowed to listen/watch. There is no public comment period for the FFMP at this business meeting. The later public meeting has other agenda topics of (likely) little interest to FFs.
 
Hi Rusty,

This is just a clarification on the DRBC meeting. You have the right date and time, but the morning session is an informal discussion on various topics between the decree parties. The public is often encouraged to participate. They do not have any discussion of FFMP on the morning informal meeting agenda.

The afternoon session is the "work" session. At this session they will get updates on weather and water, vote on the various listed agenda items, and perhaps vote on the Water Code Issue.

They may or may not know or let the public know ahead of time if they are going to postpone the vote on the water code.

I would suggest that anyone who plans to attend should arrive in time for the morning session and plan to stay all day. They sometimes bring up items that were not on the original "discussion agenda" at the morning session.

You are correct that there will not be any publice hearing on the Water Code Issue, that has already occurred. (January and March)

At the end of the afternoon business meeting is a designated time for "public comment."

Jim
 
They will be voting on amending the Water Code and Comprehensive Plan, of which the FFMP is only a part of. The public comment period has long passed.

From their website:

The business meeting also will include adoption of the Minutes of the Commission’s July 16, 2008 business meeting; announcements of upcoming advisory committee meetings and other events; a report on hydrologic conditions in the basin; a report by the Executive Director; and a report by the Commission’s General Counsel. The meeting will include consideration by the Commission of a resolution amending the Water Code and Comprehensive Plan to implement a Flexible Flow Management Program for the New York City Delaware Basin Reservoirs. The Commission issued a notice of proposed rulemaking on these amendments on December 3, 2007. It announced it would accept comments on the proposed changes through January 18, 2008, a date that was later extended to March 3. It held a hearing on the proposed amendments on January 16, 2008. No hearing on this matter will take place on September 24. If the Commission approves the amendments, a detailed comment and response document will be issued upon filing of the amendments with each of the signatory parties in accordance with Section 14.2 of the Delaware River Basin Compact. The amendments cannot go into effect without the unanimous consent of the parties to the 1954 Supreme Court decree in New Jersey v. New York, 347 U.S. 995 (1954). Also during the business meeting, the Commission will hold a public hearing on a resolution amending the composition of the Water Quality Advisory Committee to add members from the environmental and academic sectors and a resolution authorizing the executive director to enter into an agreement for a sediment flux study of mercury in Water Quality Zone 5. It will consider a resolution authorizing the executive director to extend the Commission’s 2002 agreement with Axys Analytical Services Ltd. for sampling and analysis of toxic substances in ambient water, wastewater, and sediment samples from the Delaware Estuary. An opportunity for public dialogue will be provided at the end of the meeting.

Draft dockets scheduled for public hearing on September 24, 2008 will be posted on the Commission’s web site, DRBC Home, where they can be accessed through the Notice of Commission Meeting and Public Hearing. Additional documents relating to the dockets and other items may be examined at the Commission’s offices. Please contact William Muszynski at 609-883-9500, extension 221, with any docket-related questions.
 
Hi Rusty,

This is just a clarification on the DRBC meeting. You have the right date and time, but the morning session is an informal discussion on various topics between the decree parties. The public is often encouraged to participate. They do not have any discussion of FFMP on the morning informal meeting agenda.

The afternoon session is the "work" session. At this session they will get updates on weather and water, vote on the various listed agenda items, and perhaps vote on the Water Code Issue.

They may or may not know or let the public know ahead of time if they are going to postpone the vote on the water code.

I would suggest that anyone who plans to attend should arrive in time for the morning session and plan to stay all day. They sometimes bring up items that were not on the original "discussion agenda" at the morning session.

You are correct that there will not be any publice hearing on the Water Code Issue, that has already occurred. (January and March)

At the end of the afternoon business meeting is a designated time for "public comment."

Jim

Jim,

What is your best guess on when the afternoon session willl end?

If we wanted to block out a time for us to meet, what would be best? Between the morning and afternoon session, or after the meeting?
 
Hi,

DRBC folks try to end the afternoon session by 3:00 pm so that driving is not too bad going home.

3:30 would be my best guess for this meeting.

They are expecting a crowd, which is why they have moved this to the firehouse. It is huge and can easily fit everyone.

I am also expecting a large flood group contingent to be at the meeting.

There may also be a group from the canoe liveries on the lower part of the river.

There are several issues that seem to be unresolved at this point in time. I will be surprised if the decree parties decide to vote on the FFMP and water code. They may do it with the idea that the next three year period will be used to test and evaluate. That is at least what I think is still being considered.

Jim
 
To all:

I received this response from Chris Wood at TU. Thought I would pass it on. I also attached the material Chris sent me - TU's letter to the DRBC and their statement on the FFMP:

Ross:
TU’s plan for restoration of flows on the Delaware River remains what it has been for some time – to obtain enough water for healthy, sustainable trout fisheries on the river. I am unaware of your reference to the process stalling – the DRBC plans to hold a vote on the interim FFMP at the end of September (although we are hearing that this vote may be postponed until December). TU commented both during the public comment period as well as outside of the public comment period (see attached letters/statements) indicating the inadequacy of the interim FFMP. We also have issued a number of action alert requests to our membership in the affected states asking them to send in similar comments. Beyond that we have had multiple and continuous internal discussions with agency staff about the major issues with the FFMP. As far as a legal strategy that is not something we are currently pursuing at the moment for numerous reasons.

Hope this provides the information you were seeking.
Chris


July 7, 2008
Commission Secretary
Delaware River Basin Commission
P.O. Box 7360
West Trenton, NJ 08628-0360

Dear DRBC Commissioners:

While Trout Unlimited already provided comments to the DRBC in March 2008 as part of the public comment period for the interim FFMP, in light of the unfortunate situation that occurred on the river this spring, we want to take the opportunity to reiterate our position—which is that while the fundamental concept of flexible, seasonal reservoir level-based releases that underlies the FFMP is a step forward, the plan continues to shortchange the East and West branches, Mainstem Delaware, and Neversink rivers, their fish populations, and the communities that all depend on a healthy riverine ecosystem.

The amount and timing of the reservoir releases under the interim FFMP continue to be detrimental to the rivers and their aquatic habitat. A clear example of this is the flow management that was dictated by the FFMP this spring. In April 2008, a surge of water flowed from the Cannonsville reservoir into the West Branch of the Delaware River. In late April, the water flow was cut down to just a trickle, five percent of what it was just days before. Even though the reservoirs were almost completely full, the rules dictated this dramatic reduction in the amount of water released into the river. When this type of reduction in flow occurs, the river and its tributaries get smaller and the fish and wildlife habitat is greatly compromised.

Any flow plan for managing the Delaware must ensure that healthy water levels are maintained throughout the year by releasing more water from its reservoirs. And these releases must be substantial enough to improve habitat conditions and provide protection against lethal water temperatures for the valuable and unique trout fishery at all times. Such robust releases will also sustain the recreational tourist community and better serve those who rely on its water supply down river. Finally, greater water releases can further prevent reservoirs from spilling and help address the concerns of those worried about potential flooding.

As already stated in our comments from March, it is well documented that there is more than enough water in the Upper Delaware River for all the Decree Parties and for healthy aquatic habitat for the trout species in the Neversink, East and West branches, and Main Stem of the river. In the near term, we ask the DRBC to recognize this and make immediate changes to the flow releases for the summer months, while it works to put together a long term plan that will satisfy all the parties that have a stake in the management of the Upper Delaware watershed. Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,
Elizabeth Maclin, Vice President for Eastern Conservation
Rick Axt, NJ Trout Unlimited Council Chair Ron Urban, NY Trout Unlimited Council Chair Ken Undercoffer, PA Trout Unlimited Council Chair



Trout Unlimited Statement on the Delaware River Flows

"A river is more than an amenity, it is a treasure. It offers a necessity of life that must be rationed among those who have power over it."
-U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, 1931 Delaware River Diversion Case

Trout Unlimited (TU) is dedicated to the ecological preservation of the Upper Delaware River environment and its trout fisheries. Because of this, our organization and its New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania Councils cannot support the reservoir release schedules that are contained within the interim Flexible Flow Management Program (FFMP) due to the significant damage these releases will bring to the Delaware River’s ecosystem. In particular, under the interim releases the trout fisheries of the Upper Delaware River’s main stem will be lost due to lethal rises in water temperatures and loss of habitat. Additionally, the interim release schedule harms American shad populations and habitat, dwarf wedge mussels and other fish and wildlife as well as the recreational tourist economy of the Upper Delaware region. TU does, however, support in principle the FFMP adaptive release concept to address the flow management issues in the Delaware River basin.
It is well documented that there is more than enough water in the Upper Delaware River for all the Decree Parties and for healthy aquatic habitat for trout, shad, and the many other species that live in and along the Neversink, East and West branches, and Main Stem of the river. The current constraint under which the FFMP is modeled, however, is invalid, biased, and inflexible:




<DIR><DIR>• New York City’s annual diversions from Neversink, Pepacton, and Cannonsville reservoirs over the past ten years have averaged 508 mgd. Yet the Delaware River Basin Commission (DRBC) has consistently required that all OASIS modeling of future scenarios consider an annual New York City diversion of 765 mgd. This means that over 290 mgd is available for ecosystem benefits downstream of the reservoirs, not the 35 mgd that the DRBC is currently modeling.

• By imposing a release schedule calculated for extreme water supply diversions (765 mgd) when the actual annual average diversions are much lower (508 mgd), the DRBC’s interim FFMP will result in far more reservoir spills and significantly higher reservoirs each year than the OASIS model currently predicts. This is wasteful and irresponsible management of the Delaware River’s water.

• New York City’s annual average diversions have been decreasing over the past 15 years, and they are not projected to increase for the foreseeable future.




</DIR></DIR>Given New York City’s average diversions and the resulting additional water in the Upper Delaware River, the following changes will correct the deficiencies of the FFMP with no risk to any of the Decree Parties’ water rights and availability.




<DIR>(1) The releases in the interim FFMP must be increased. Higher reservoir releases from Cannonsville are needed from May to September to protect trout habitat in the lower West Branch and Main Stem Delaware River. Similarly, higher release rates are required for the Neversink and East Branch tributaries to protect against low flows and high water

temperatures. In light of the large quantity of available water that will not be diverted to New York City and will eventually find its way downstream as spillage over the dams, TU cannot accept any FFMP without an increase in releases from all three reservoirs. The OASIS model can substantiate this, and the DSS model verifies the considerable habitat gains for the rivers.

(2) More release levels and seasons are necessary in the interim FFMP. The interim FFMP structure is very inflexible; during most summers, releases will remain in L2 more than 75 percent of the time. At a minimum, additional graduated levels need to be added to both the L1 and L2 Storage Zone. The FFMP will also benefit from additional seasons, particularly because of traditional water temperature and flow problems in mid- to late-May, early-June, and the summer period through mid-September whenever Montague flow target releases are not made.

(3) Weekly averaging of the Montague flow target is needed. The wildly fluctuating releases that result from the efforts to meet Montague flow target shortages must be eliminated. These extreme daily variances create dangerous water temperature fluctuations to the biota and disrupt various forms of recreation on the rivers. Proactive directed releases must be based on a weekly average target rather than daily variances. Anticipated hydropower generation releases from the Lackawaxen and Mongaup rivers make this entirely feasible and such a weekly averaging should be instituted immediately. Using anticipated water diversions, anticipated Montague target releases, and projected hydropower releases, the Rivermaster can institute a weekly Montague release that accounts for these factors and eliminates these harmful and unnecessary daily fluctuations.

(4) Directed releases for the Montague flow target must be balanced from the reservoirs. Some portion of the Montague releases should be apportioned as necessary to the East Branch and Neversink rivers when the Rivermaster requires water releases for the Montague flow target. Such an allocation in releases will provide more aquatic habitat to the three tailwaters and help avoid draining Cannonsville during dry years.

(5) A formal annual review of the FFMP is mandatory. A process must be established to provide for an annual review of the FFMP to assess its performance. Consistent review, analysis, and response are needed to address any of its shortcomings and incorporate new research. Because these aquatic environments are extremely sensitive, we stress the need for the DRBC to maintain the ability to act quickly at times to avoid long-term environmental damage from loss of aquatic habitat. Any formal process to review and respond to new information or environmental conditions must include the stakeholders and not be unnecessarily hindered by the bureaucratic process.




</DIR>TU recognizes the extraordinary efforts that are necessary for the equitable apportionment and management of the Upper Delaware watershed for both the DRBC and the Decree Parties. We recognize that management needs for these rivers will remain dynamic and require constant assessment. By implementing the above courses of action to correct the deficiencies of the interim FFMP, the DRBC and the Decree Parties can use their power to significantly improve the health of the Delaware River and its treasured trout fisheries—and with no risk to New York City or any other Decree Party’s water supplies or rights.
 
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Hi,

DRBC folks try to end the afternoon session by 3:00 pm so that driving is not too bad going home.

3:30 would be my best guess for this meeting.

They are expecting a crowd, which is why they have moved this to the firehouse. It is huge and can easily fit everyone.

I am also expecting a large flood group contingent to be at the meeting.

There may also be a group from the canoe liveries on the lower part of the river.

There are several issues that seem to be unresolved at this point in time. I will be surprised if the decree parties decide to vote on the FFMP and water code. They may do it with the idea that the next three year period will be used to test and evaluate. That is at least what I think is still being considered.

Jim

Thanks Jim.

Who would be interested in a meeting at 4:00 PM to discuss and strategize? Do we need a formal meeting room or just a place to share a beer and burger?

I'm in. Considering how far some folks have to travel I'm inclined to combine a brainstorming session with an early dinner.

What say you?
 
Hi,

Getting together before the meeting would be most beneficial.

If anyone wants to have an informational meeting in Hancock this weekend after fishing, let me know. We can grab a burger and throw some ideas on the table.

Lunchtime at the DRBC meeting may also provide an opportunity to discuss some ideas.

After the meeting also works in that we can discuss strategy moving forward.

I have always been open to discussion and ideas. The more people that can help the better.

Jim
 
reply from NJ DEP Commissioner (after sending one of Coz's e-mails):

===================================================

September 16, 2008

Dear Concerned Citizen:

Lisa P. Jackson, Commissioner of the Department of Environmental Protection has requested that I respond on her behalf to your recent email regarding the Flexible Flow Management Plan (FFMP).

As you know, the FFMP attempts to establish a water management framework that strikes a balance between the competing interests along the Delaware River, including water supply, flood mitigation, fisheries management, recreation and ecological protection. Approval of the FFMP required the unanimous approval among the parties to the 1954 Supreme Court decree, New Jersey, and New York, New York City, Pennsylvania and Delaware. That agreement was reached on September 26, 2007 and will be in effect, unless unanimously amended, until May 31, 2011.

On December 3, 2007, the DRBC issued a notice for proposed amendments to the Delaware River Basin Water Code implementing the provisions of the FFMP. There were several information meetings held as well as a public hearing; the public comment period closed on March 3, 2008, having been extended from January 18. The Commission has been working to respond to the numerous comments received; a vote on the adoption of the code, with or without amendments, may be the subject of the upcoming meeting on September 24, 2008. As currently proposed, the Code amendments will expire on May 31 2011, unless unanimously extended.

At this point, no substantial revisions to the water code are under consideration. New Jersey is continuing it’s efforts to ensure that analyses are conducted that will help us to develop a stronger FFMP and Water Code, such that the varied and sometimes conflicting objectives of the basin’s stakeholders are better achieved, while protecting water supply. The Delaware Basin Flood Analysis Model, which is scheduled to be available in January of 2009, should also help us to do that.

Thank you for expressing your concerns regarding this important potential action by the DRBC.

Sincerely,
Marybeth Brenner, Director
Office of Constituent Services
 
Yea,
I recieved the same canned reply.

Why cant any flow plan be considered truly flexible?

Give the fishery the unused NYC water. Time it so it benefits the flood concerns and protects the fishery.

Have it written that down the road, if NYC or any of the Decree parties have a real justifiable need for the water, then revisit and adjust accordingly.
 
Hi Brachy,

We are exactly on the same page.

This is at the crux of the problem.

How to convince the parties to make FFMP truly flexible with enough water and allow them to back out if their water needs increase?

NYC and to some extent, the decree parties, are unwilling to go down that road. They say they fear that they may never get back something they give on a temporary basis.

I do believe that FFMP at least allows for a mechanism to make that happen. Simpy add 2 or 3 more tables that are with a NYC withdrawl of 750 and 700 mgd. This would give NYC plenty of margin for safety and allow for ample water for the rivers.

I wonder if this could be a nyc referendum that could be put before a vote of NYC residents.

IT is going to take work over the next two or three year period to get this major change. It will be easier to get if FFMP is continued on an interim basis. I think it will be more difficult if we go back to Rev 1 or if FFMP is approved on a more permanent basis on Wednesday.

Jim
 
I am constantly amazed at how those who view the process from the outside always have such simple solutions. "Just put more water in the river". No shit sherlock, everyone knows that. The trick is getting the folks who have a legal claim to the water to release it downstream. As yet NYC, has not been negotiating in good faith, and until they do that simple answer is worse than useless.

Rev 1 was bad for the river, or it would have been if they could have turned the water off when allowed. (The broken valve prevented shutting down to the 45 CFS mandated.) Even with Rev 7 and the supposed mandated thermal releases, there were always issues and no clear mechanism for getting water into the river as needed. FFMP with the number used this past year was bad, but if Rev 1 had been used it would have been much worse.

The delay in vote will allow NY, NJ and PA time to adjust release levels and hopefully include flow and temperature targets at Callicon and Lordville. Barring that if we get NY to only withdraw the water they use, and release the mandated percentage of the safe yield the river can recover. FFMP with much revised targets can accomplish this, but only if modified substantially.

Any other unnamed and as yet imaginary plan is unlikely to find support from any one of, much less all five of, the decree parties. The much heralded "use the Clean Water Act" strategy has been dismissed as not having merit repeatedly, including by some folks who helped to draft the act itself. There is a possibility that the dwarf wedgemussel may provide help, of course if the "research" does not support the need for more flows, then it could be a nail in the trout of the mainstems coffin. Pinning all our hope on it would be foolish, and so far very few of the people I see working on this are fools.
 
One more thing. Last Friday TU National sent out an Action Alert on the FFMP vote, as of this morning 1900 e-mails were tracked as being sent to the DRBC officials.

I am sure that FUDR and the Flood groups also had similar results over the past few days. The single best hope we have is to have all the "acronym" groups singing the same hymn. Political pressure is really our best ally in getting the water that the river is legally entitled to, back in the river.

Keep up the pressure everyone, even if we like to poke at each other here, keep in mind who the real enemies are and what the real problem is.
 
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I had an e-mail from Norm Gavlick stating that Cathy Meyers has told the PAFB that the vote will be delayed until at least Dec. Any one get the same?

Rich
 
I had an e-mail from Norm Gavlick stating that Cathy Meyers has told the PAFB that the vote will be delayed until at least Dec. Any one get the same?

Rich

Correct. In the meantime we just need to keep up the pressure on the DRBC to give us ample water that we all know the city has been hoarding all these years.
 
Roll call; Who's going to show on Weds?

Everyone I'm talking to is focusing now on continued email/letter/phone call campaigns to the DRBC and affiliated parties instead of attending this Wednesday. Others may still want to attend. It certainly can't hurt to have a presence there on Wed.
 
I am constantly amazed at how those who view the process from the outside always have such simple solutions. "Just put more water in the river". No shit sherlock, everyone knows that. The trick is getting the folks who have a legal claim to the water to release it downstream. As yet NYC, has not been negotiating in good faith, and until they do that simple answer is worse than useless....

Agust - It's NYC! Just make an offer they cannot refuse.

GodfatherAgust-1.jpg
 
Hi,

Showing up in person would be much more powerful than any email or letter.

A good showing tomorrow may actually show the secree party members that they need to take significant action.

Leaving Hancock at 6:00 am.

Jim
 
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