NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

[JOE.T]

See some of you on the river this year, as far as the site that was my cameo that comes every couple years or so.

Ciao for now.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Maybe you should fish more this summer and see for yourself, thats a novel idea huh?..Oh let me guess your allowed to only fish a weekend every other month.

You armchair quarterbacks are the reason why most of the very experienced Fly-fisherman have left this site years ago.

Go practice your reach-cast ,tie some flies, and go fish!

Armchair quarterbacks and ego maniacs. And then you all run off when someone offers an opinion that differs from yours. Like we're all pining away for your nuggets of knowledge every 2 years. Get over yourselves.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Armchair quarterbacks and ego maniacs. And then you all run off when someone offers an opinion that differs from yours. Like we're all pining away for your nuggets of knowledge every 2 years. Get over yourselves.

Kudos.

Same old, same old.
Twenty years of the same issues and arguments...
Predictions of doom...

And we'll go out and fish, catch fish (or not)...
come back to these boards and hear it all again...

Be careful though, TN.
You'll be insulted for your choice of career or your lack of fishing experience or your audacity to question...

 

[JOE.T]

Armchair quarterbacks and ego maniacs. And then you all run off when someone offers an opinion that differs from yours. Like we're all pining away for your nuggets of knowledge every 2 years. Get over yourselves.

The problem here is that you have an opinion on how the rivers are affected by smaller releases due to less reservoir capacity.If you fished the System more often you would understand first hand that it's not about opinions its about facts.

Nobody said the fish would die or disappear, all that was said was that the fishing would suck, and it would hurt the fish to a degree..When you have low water you have higher temps that start to move up river.

I've seen when the temps where to warm to fish unless you where in the no kill or higher up on the river.When that happens the fish have to move up as well.Thats not good.

Have you ever seen the fish stacked up like sardines in the WB in the summer? I have many times..Thats not conducive for fish habitat let alone fishing.

It makes no sense how you or anyone can even try to pass an opinion on something that you know little or nothing about, and probably get up to the D a couple times a year.

This is why many of the experienced fly-fisherman have left this site.

I came in yesterday to back up Brachy who's a friend and fishing partner…I see guys who don't fish the System arguing with a guide ?…You should put your egos aside and maybe try to learn something from a guy like Brachy…

 

[Trout Nazi]

The problem here is that you have an opinion on how the rivers are affected by smaller releases due to less reservoir capacity.If you fished the System more often you would understand first hand that it's not about opinions its about facts.

Nobody said the fish would die or disappear, all that was said was that the fishing would suck, and it would hurt the fish to a degree..When you have low water you have higher temps that start to move up river.

I've seen when the temps where to warm to fish unless you where in the no kill or higher up on the river.When that happens the fish have to move up as well.Thats not good.

Have you ever seen the fish stacked up like sardines in the WB in the summer? I have many times..Thats not conducive for fish habitat let alone fishing.

It makes no sense how you or anyone can even try to pass an opinion on something that you know little or nothing about, and probably get up to the D a couple times a year.

This is why many of the experienced fly-fisherman have left this site.

I came in yesterday to back up Brachy who's a friend and fishing partner…I see guys who don't fish the System arguing with a guide ?…You should put your egos aside and maybe try to learn something from a guy like Brachy…

First of all, I said nothing of the sort, I offerred an observation, that you got all butt-hurt over. I didn't kwow that I'm not allowed have an opinion, sorry, but my opinion has not changed.

And your right, I don't know all of the intracacies and details. But I do get the big picture objective of both fishermand and NYC. You will be arguining this flow issue forever because your goals are philsophically different that those of NYC. They want to ensure enough water for 10 million people, and to a much lesser degree, flood protection. We fisherman want better fishing. Having enough drinking water fundamentally means not letting it go, and therein lies the issue. The needs of people will always outweigh the needs of fish. I do not foresee a solution that will satsify everyone. Throw politics into the mix, and its even less likely. If it weren't for that Montague number (driven by drinking water needs), we'd be fishing for sunnies in the summer. And if there ever was a drought that severe in duration, I don't doubt for a second that they'd turn the taps off everywhere but where that Montague number needed to be met.

And I am a guide now (plus I know guides way more knowledgeable than you two, and who are also smart enough not to involved in these online battles).

 

[TR]

This is why many of the experienced fly-fisherman have left this site.

I came in yesterday to back up Brachy who's a friend and fishing partner…I see guys who don't fish the System arguing with a guide?

--------

Morning Joey Tut.

'Tis true that many of the old salts have departed this board. Coz, Kenny, Bruce and a handful of others since word on the river is that this BB has become something akin to digital cesspool.

Even The Big Old Spinner lurks the board from time to time between various real estate closings as well as trips to Trenton.

At least that's where he says he going.

However, you still have a handful of dudes that have plied the water for many years that still participate in the frivolity: Joe D., Brachy, TR and some others that use pen names -- not exactly chopped liver, eh?

But as Obama has said many times:

It is what it is.

I think he said that. Maybe it was Romney.

But I digress.

And we now have The Trout Nazi (can't wait to see his logo on his driftboat and business cards this year -- still in production but word is is that it's a cross between a Simms like silohuette of a trout rising over an a skul and bones with an Iron Cross in a field of red, white and black, he's the newest UDR guide who is as regular on the board as a blue cheese burger at Lydia's and, in addition, we also have the venerable Beetle to lessen the pain.

So, all is not lost as we anxiously await the beginning of yet another season on the Upper Delaware River.

Kind regards and tight lines always,
TR

 

[JOE.T]

First of all, I said nothing of the sort, I offerred an observation, that you got all butt-hurt over. I didn't kwow that I'm not allowed have an opinion, sorry, but my opinion has not changed.

And your right, I don't know all of the intracacies and details. But I do get the big picture objective of both fishermand and NYC. You will be arguining this flow issue forever because your goals are philsophically different that those of NYC. They want to ensure enough water for 10 million people, and to a much lesser degree, flood protection. We fisherman want better fishing. Having enough drinking water fundamentally means not letting it go, and therein lies the issue. The needs of people will always outweigh the needs of fish. I do not foresee a solution that will satsify everyone. Throw politics into the mix, and its even less likely. If it weren't for that Montague number (driven by drinking water needs), we'd be fishing for sunnies in the summer. And if there ever was a drought that severe in duration, I don't doubt for a second that they'd turn the taps off everywhere but where that Montague number needed to be met.

And I am a guide now (plus I know guides way more knowledgeable than you two, and who are also smart enough not to involved in these online battles).

I have not been involved with any of the groups that are battling for more water for about 9 years now.Do I see an end to it, no never.50 years from now it'll just be different names and faces, and there still will not be enough water for what the Fisherman would like.Thats a reality.

As i've said thousands of times when you have 4 state government entities plus NYC, there is just now way to Negotiate a viable deal for the Fly-Fisherman...When there is water the fishery is amazing, you could float and spread out..

If your a guide you should know that.What's really entertaining is that you act like a 10 year old," my friends are better than your friends" who really gives a shit Whah whah whah.

A tip for you and your clients -You should you stay out well after dark instead of Lydias, you'll catch more fish.

 

[mob201]

--------

Morning Joey Tut.

'Tis true that many of the old salts have departed this board. Coz, Kenny, Bruce and a handful of others since word on the river is that this BB has become something akin to digital cesspool.

Even The Big Old Spinner lurks the board from time to time between various real estate closings as well as trips to Trenton.

At least that's where he says he going.

However, you still have a handful of dudes that have plied the water for many years that still participate in the frivolity: Joe D., Brachy, TR and some others that use pen names -- not exactly chopped liver, eh?

But as Obama has said many times:

It is what it is.

I think he said that. Maybe it was Romney.

But I digress.

And we now have The Trout Nazi (can't wait to see his logo on his driftboat and business cards this year -- still in production but word is is that it's a cross between a Simms like silohuette of a trout rising over an a skul and bones with an Iron Cross in a field of red, white and black, he's the newest UDR guide who is as regular on the board as a blue cheese burger at Lydia's and, in addition, we also have the venerable Beetle to lessen the pain.

So, all is not lost as we anxiously await the beginning of yet another season on the Upper Delaware River.

Kind regards and tight lines always,
TR

View attachment 10374

what a great post!

 

[Trout Nazi]

I have not been involved with any of the groups that are battling for more water for about 9 years now.Do I see an end to it, no never.50 years from now it'll just be different names and faces, and there still will not be enough water for what the Fisherman would like.Thats a reality.

As i've said thousands of times when you have 4 state government entities plus NYC, there is just now way to Negotiate a viable deal for the Fly-Fisherman...When there is water the fishery is amazing, you could float and spread out..

If your a guide you should know that.What's really entertaining is that you act like a 10 year old," my friends are better than your friends" who really gives a shit Whah whah whah.

A tip for you and your clients -You should you stay out well after dark instead of Lydias, you'll catch more fish.

Ok, so we had to take the super long way around, sprinkle in a few insults, for you to pick up what I was putting down. Who exactly is acting like the 10yr old?

And we stay out way after dark, this isn't a float till 6 operation like they do out west. Who doesn't float till way after dark?

 

[brachycentrus]

I have not been involved with any of the groups that are battling for more water for about 9 years now.Do I see an end to it, no never.50 years from now it'll just be different names and faces, and there still will not be enough water for what the Fisherman would like.Thats a reality.

As i've said thousands of times when you have 4 state government entities plus NYC, there is just now way to Negotiate a viable deal for the Fly-Fisherman...When there is water the fishery is amazing, you could float and spread out..

If your a guide you should know that.What's really entertaining is that you act like a 10 year old," my friends are better than your friends" who really gives a shit Whah whah whah.

A tip for you and your clients -You should you stay out well after dark instead of Lydias, you'll catch more fish.

This is what happens and why knowledgable people that have fished and lived on the system no longer come here.
All I initially posted were links to help with making a decision to people considering coming up here so they can look at real time variables before making the slog up here and it , as usual turns into a shitstorm of unrelated bullshit.

In addition, I get asked literally thousands of times a year on who dictates releases, how did it evolve, who controls the valves etc, so I posted a link to the current flow plan so that maybe if you were interested, you might take some time and delve into it. You would benefit more than you think.

I think it's a freakin sin that if you dont know shit about the system that you even come up and fish. And a much bigger sin is to fish the system and not support FUDR, the only group that is watching out for everyone's interest. Some great work has been done with plenty more on the horizon but it also takes memberships. I feel that if you fish up here on a regular basis and dont spend the measly $35.00 annual membership, then you are just an asshole.

This will be my 21st year guiding on this system and have seen a ton of changes, some good, some horrible, but as a group and a viable conservation org. looking out the rivers interest, $35.00 is a bargain. Go to the One Bug Banquet in Fireman's Field on Friday, April 25th at 7:00 and you will be shocked at how many National organizations support our cause, plus there is a banquet with open bar and both silent and regular auctions and free insight into how the system worked.

Before I commit to a 2 or 3 hour drive, I for one would want to know how an upcoming storm can affect my fishing, where I can go to avoid it, how it will affect the flows. It is a big system and with some knowledge, can be fished any time of year.

And here is a free trip before the season starts. NPS, NYDEC and PA Fish and Boat are all going to be riding herd this year for violations and illegal guiding. The last few years with state budget cuts have reduced staff and people have taken advantage of it, but in my recent conversations with all 3 entities, the party is over. If you float, you better have enough life preservers, whistles, lights and of course proper permits and NO glass containers plus your appropriate fishing licenses and if you are a guide, all permits, PA, NY and NPS plus the proper amount of insurance on hand to prove and all safety certifications, including: adult, child and infant CPR, First Aid, Water Safety and it might be a good idea to know how to row a boat.

Oh and most important, centerpinning which shouldnt even be legal, for stacked up fish seeking thermal protection will be dealt with harshly, maybe not by an officer of the court, but by plenty of others who arent restrained by the legal system.

 

[JOE.T]

Ok, so we had to take the super long way around, sprinkle in a few insults, for you to pick up what I was putting down. Who exactly is acting like the 10yr old?

And we stay out way after dark, this isn't a float till 6 operation like they do out west. Who doesn't float till way after dark?

Out west, now your insulting the guides out there.Wow
Next time think twice about taking the first swing

None of my posts where directed at you, you came at me for whatever reason..Which really doesn't mean shit to me.
See you on the river.

 

[Future Fanatic]

This is what happens and why knowledgable people that have fished and lived on the system no longer come here.
All I initially posted were links to help with making a decision to people considering coming up here so they can look at real time variables before making the slog up here and it , as usual turns into a shitstorm of unrelated bullshit.

You can't be serious.
The unrelated bullshit started in post #3 and continued in #6 and #9. those posts got a few others in on it...

YOU started the "shit storm" that you are complaining about!

 

[Trout Nazi]

Out west, now your insulting the guides out there.Wow
Next time think twice about taking the first swing.

So you're saying that its not common practice out west to float until early evening, is that it? They float till 11 at night like we do out here, putting in 14-15hr days for their clients?

Why don't you all go back to fighting over who gets to be the Lorax of the Delaware.

 

[Thursthouse]

Oh and most important, centerpinning which shouldnt even be legal, for stacked up fish seeking thermal protection will be dealt with harshly, maybe not by an officer of the court, but by plenty of others who arent restrained by the legal system.

Can you elaborate on this? Who will be policing this and who is above the law? I think without a doubt that it should be enforced, just intrigued by the logistics/definitions.

 

[JOE.T]

So you're saying that its not common practice out west to float until early evening, is that it? They float till 11 at night like we do out here, putting in 14-15hr days for their clients?

Why don't you all go back to fighting over who gets to be the Lorax of the Delaware.

Not the guides I know in Montana Josh Steinmentz,Gary Frits and the Gang at headhunters fly-shop on the Mo..Your clueless

Your a guide ? For who?

I know every guide by first name from the DRC, WB Angler, Coz' Crew, Lee Hartman, TR,JOE.D , The guys from the Catskillflies, among others.Your nothing more than a wannabe.

I'll find out who you are and let the whole world know online, that should help boost your new start up Business .Oh don't worry you'll thank me for the all customer's that i'll send your way.Remember like attracts like, clueless fly-fisherman…

Maybe Future Fanatic will be your first customer.

Just shoot me a PM and I'll help dial you in with locations and flies..Before you shoot your mouth off why don't you call a few shops and ask if they know me.I've done more to help the river's.spend money at the shops, and refer people to guides and the shops than you could ever imagine.

I'm good the good guy on the Delaware you jerk off.

Like I said earlier can't wait to see you on the river,

It's guys like you that give guides a bad rap.

 

[brachycentrus]

Can you elaborate on this? Who will be policing this and who is above the law? I think without a doubt that it should be enforced, just intrigued by the logistics/definitions.

Well. I will give an example of the carnage that can occurr. A guide from down in the Poconos took his clients to a thermal refuge where the trout are stacked up like cordwood at certain times of the year. He and his clients were pinning with waxworms and had the balls to put on his website that the fishing was so good, that they whacked something like 86 fish and went back the next day for another 50 0r 60 or so. That, especially from someone who professes to be a guide is in no way ethical on this system. These fish are gems, wild trout and should be respected for what they represent. I know this location well and have never stopped there with a client and be a hero for a day. There are other areas on the system where the fish stack up like that. I never stop with clients because tomorrow, I would see them there. It is a natural protection zone and pisses me off to no end that NYDEC and PA does not protect these areas. They offer more protection to a hatchery system, the Beaverkill, where they close off Horton Brook area for the same reason, but wont do anything to protect the wild stock.
Centerpinning in the hands of a good pinner is deadly and is more conducive to migratory fish like up on the Salmon or Great Lake tribs, not for wild trout on the Delaware. It's just not fair or sporting and lacks ethics and these fish face enough challenges both natural and man made.
John, as far as you pointing out who is starting shit and pointing to pages or posts, like I said before, I just dont like you and you evoke that response from me.
Trout Nazi, I think we talked over the winter when I was selling my boat, I can be mistaken, but I wish you luck and hope you enjoy your choice. It will at times make you wish you had your gun and at the same time be thankful that you dont, but the beauty and joy that you can experience more than make up for it.
Joe T. is solid and knows his shit. Do a search on this site and read a couple of articles he used to contribute. Good fisherman and knows his bugs and thats what it's all about.
Enjoy and Good Luck TN.

 

[Thursthouse]

Well. I will give an example of the carnage that can occurr. A guide from down in the Poconos took his clients to a thermal refuge where the trout are stacked up like cordwood at certain times of the year. He and his clients were pinning with waxworms and had the balls to put on his website that the fishing was so good, that they whacked something like 86 fish and went back the next day for another 50 0r 60 or so. That, especially from someone who professes to be a guide is in no way ethical on this system. These fish are gems, wild trout and should be respected for what they represent. I know this location well and have never stopped there with a client and be a hero for a day. There are other areas on the system where the fish stack up like that. I never stop with clients because tomorrow, I would see them there. It is a natural protection zone and pisses me off to no end that NYDEC and PA does not protect these areas. They offer more protection to a hatchery system, the Beaverkill, where they close off Horton Brook area for the same reason, but wont do anything to protect the wild stock.
Centerpinning in the hands of a good pinner is deadly and is more conducive to migratory fish like up on the Salmon or Great Lake tribs, not for wild trout on the Delaware. It's just not fair or sporting and lacks ethics and these fish face enough challenges both natural and man made.

100% agree that that's a direct abuse of the resource and appreciate your professionalism in holding true to you morals. I guess I was more interested in who "dealt" with such offenders and more importantly how are they "above the law". Full disclosure: I'm new to the hobby so this may be a bonehead question.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Not the guides I know in Montana Josh Steinmentz,Gary Frits and the Gang at headhunters fly-shop on the Mo..Your clueless

Your a guide ? For who?

I know every guide by first name from the DRC, WB Angler, Coz' Crew, Lee Hartman, TR,JOE.D , The guys from the Catskillflies, among others.Your nothing more than a wannabe.

I'll find out who you are and let the whole world know online, that should help boost your new start up Business .Oh don't worry you'll thank me for the all customer's that i'll send your way.Remember like attracts like, clueless fly-fisherman…

Maybe Future Fanatic will be your first customer.

Just shoot me a PM and I'll help dial you in with locations and flies..Before you shoot your mouth off why don't you call a few shops and ask if they know me.I've done more to help the river's.spend money at the shops, and refer people to guides and the shops than you could ever imagine.

I'm good the good guy on the Delaware you jerk off.

Like I said earlier can't wait to see you on the river,

It's guys like you that give guides a bad rap.

Big deal, you know 3 guys in Montana who are the exception to the rule. The name dropping does not impress me.

Im a guide for myself, independent business. Maybe you'll see me on the Main in my motor canoe, I save the drifter for the branches. As far as knowing who you are, I could care less. Your another one of the negative know it alls who feels its their duty to lecture the rest of us idiots. It's all good until someone questions though (which I didn't even do).

 

[Future Fanatic]

John, as far as you pointing out who is starting shit and pointing to pages or posts, like I said before, I just dont like you and you evoke that response from me.

But you complained about the thread going to shit, implying I was to blame, and THAT was the reason you stopped visiting the site in the past! It was YOUR response toward ME that turned the thread to shit in your eyes... You have to be able to see the silliness of it.
I guess since you can't control your responses to me, it's good that I can, toward you... From my experience in the past, you certainly can't take it as easily as you dish it out.

 

[brachycentrus]

Big deal, you know 3 guys in Montana who are the exception to the rule. The name dropping does not impress me.

Im a guide for myself, independent business. Maybe you'll see me on the Main in my motor canoe, I save the drifter for the branches. As far as knowing who you are, I could care less. Your another one of the negative know it alls who feels its their duty to lecture the rest of us idiots. It's all good until someone questions though (which I didn't even do).

Well good to see you have your guide license, however, if you plan on guiding down low in your motorized canoe, make sure you have your Coast Guard 6 Pak license, even if you are only using an electric motor, NPS CUA and Pennsylvania guides license. And be prepared for annual coast guard inspections and all the other stuff they do in order to make you work until July before you make a paycheck.
Everyone has their hands out.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Well good to see you have your guide license, however, if you plan on guiding down low in your motorized canoe, make sure you have your Coast Guard 6 Pak license, even if you are only using an electric motor, NPS CUA and Pennsylvania guides license. And be prepared for annual coast guard inspections and all the other stuff they do in order to make you work until July before you make a paycheck.
Everyone has their hands out.

Dont worry, I have my OUPV. And no standing and casting in my canoe.

 

[flyI4]

u know they say that most drowning victims are found with their zipper unzipped. Watch out for that one too....its not the cast. its the piss that will get in you in trouble

 

[JOE.T]

So Brachy are you implying that I should be friendly with someone who calls them-self a Nazi ?

Shit thats tough for someone who comes from a family full of Marines to like anything or anyone with the word Nazi in it. There no different than communist's, and terrorist scumbags.

Jeff to many ass holes here (not to offend some of the good guys I know here)I enjoy fishing not this silly soap opera with a bunch of girly men who wear pink panties.

I'll touch base soon.

To my buddies out there see you on the river and keep it tight.

 

[MACFLY]

Flyfishing: the gentlemans sport

 

[dcabarle]

I think it's a freakin sin that if you dont know shit about the system that you even come up and fish. And a much bigger sin is to fish the system and not support friends of the Delaware River, the only group that is watching out for everyone's interest. Some great work has been done with plenty more on the horizon but it also takes memberships. I feel that if you fish up here on a regular basis and dont spend the measly $35.00 annual membership, then you are just an asshole.

Jesus died for their sins, so this shouldn't be an issue.

Jeff, we have to take into consideration that not everyone cares (unfortunately). They come up, fish once or twice for the photo op and that's the end of their season and they're happy with that (I'm sure you have your fair share of those in your boat).

Then of course there are the people you describe who come up and just use the system and do know about the FUDR. But, it's possible they know of the old FUDR when it was FUDR vs. DRF. Remember when the arguments on this site used to get nuts and the name calling was out of hand? The online fighting ensued and of course me being the site owner gets caught in the middle because I'm letting those cretins speak their minds!?! THIS is why the site originally became a cesspool and one of the reasons people disassociated with both groups (FUDR / DRF) as well as this site... They couldn't take the bickering and of course they hated the fact that I wouldn't censor the other side. Then years later came other people who brought the site down but right now, I think we're actually doing pretty good. The site has become informative again. Now look at each thread on the front page and pick out the 1 thread that might deter people from coming on this site or joining the FUDR. Hint... It's not the golden beetle thread!

Look... When I'm purchasing a new piece of audio equipment, I don't look for the good reviews about that piece of equipment, I look at the bad ones. Who cares about the good reviews, we already have an idea that we want the product and why...? I wanna read the bad reviews to see what issues I might run into with a product. I want to see where the breakage points are. I want to know what the customer support didn't do to help solve the issue.
Don't you think having a guy like Future Fanatic question everything is a smart thing to do? Now sure we can go and post something and have everyone say, "Really, let's jump on the bandwagon, Jeff is a reliable source of information so it must be right". (and I think you are a reliable source of information). We (You and I) are both guilty of posting stuff on Facebook that we read somewhere and just ran with it because it looked like it was reliable. I screwed up yesterday with something like that but I was happy when I was corrected because I'll make sure I double check the source next time.

I just think that when you build a bridge, you have to find all the weak points in the bridge before you let the cars pass safely. That's where a guy like future fanatic comes in. We should question everything. Debate is good.

I'm happy to see that the FUDR has become a really great group with great people and an asset to not only the river but the community that surrounds the river. It's nice to see that the FUDR is being promoted by ALL of the fly shops in the area and yes, even Jim Serio is on board. The old way of business - having two groups pulling people and twisting people wasn't a good thing for anybody, it only divided people and pulled people away from what was important.

I think one of the ways to get people who may question the FUDR's involvement with the flow plan is to promote some of the other really great things the FUDR does:

Accomplishments | FUDR
________________________
In addition to our stream restoration project on Sands Creek, the funds are used to support the Hancock Fire Department, East Branch Fire Department, Equinunk Watershed Association, and the Hancock Community Education Foundation.


‘Friends Park’ in Deposit provides a new access point to the river for trout fishermen, birdwatchers and others. A viewing access of the river will be completed in 2014.

Continue work on a comprehensive stream restoration project of Sands and Cadosia creeks in Delaware County, N.Y., partnering with the Town of Hancock, Delaware County Department of Public Works, Code Blue, National Fish and Wildlife Foundation, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, The Keith Campbell Foundation, Orvis, Patagonia, & Theodore Gordon Flyfishers.
________________________

Not everyone knows about the FUDR. The FUDR has a booth at the Somerset show but how else are they really marketing? Other than that, how do people know about it? I offered to have an FUDR banner on this site but haven't heard back yet. This was months ago.

 

[brachycentrus]

Jesus died for their sins, so this shouldn't be an issue.

Jeff, we have to take into consideration that not everyone cares (unfortunately). They come up, fish once or twice for the photo op and that's the end of their season and they're happy with that (I'm sure you have your fair share of those in your boat).

Then of course there are the people you describe who come up and just use the system and do know about the FUDR. But, it's possible they know of the old FUDR when it was FUDR vs. DRF. Remember when the arguments on this site used to get nuts and the name calling was out of hand? The online fighting ensued and of course me being the site owner gets caught in the middle because I'm letting those cretins speak their minds!?! THIS is why the site originally became a cesspool and one of the reasons people disassociated with both groups (FUDR / DRF) as well as this site... They couldn't take the bickering and of course they hated the fact that I wouldn't censor the other side. Then years later came other people who brought the site down but right now, I think we're actually doing pretty good. The site has become informative again. Now look at each thread on the front page and pick out the 1 thread that might deter people from coming on this site or joining the FUDR. Hint... It's not the golden beetle thread!

Look... When I'm purchasing a new piece of audio equipment, I don't look for the good reviews about that piece of equipment, I look at the bad ones. Who cares about the good reviews, we already have an idea that we want the product and why...? I wanna read the bad reviews to see what issues I might run into with a product. I want to see where the breakage points are. I want to know what the customer support didn't do to help solve the issue.
Don't you think having a guy like Future Fanatic question everything is a smart thing to do? Now sure we can go and post something and have everyone say, "Really, let's jump on the bandwagon, Jeff is a reliable source of information so it must be right". (and I think you are a reliable source of information). We (You and I) are both guilty of posting stuff on Facebook that we read somewhere and just ran with it because it looked like it was reliable. I screwed up yesterday with something like that but I was happy when I was corrected because I'll make sure I double check the source next time.

I just think that when you build a bridge, you have to find all the weak points in the bridge before you let the cars pass safely. That's where a guy like future fanatic comes in. We should question everything. Debate is good.

I'm happy to see that the FUDR has become a really great group with great people and an asset to not only the river but the community that surrounds the river. It's nice to see that the FUDR is being promoted by ALL of the fly shops in the area and yes, even Jim Serio is on board. The old way of business - having two groups pulling people and twisting people wasn't a good thing for anybody, it only divided people and pulled people away from what was important.

I think one of the ways to get people who may question the FUDR's involvement with the flow plan is to promote some of the other really great things the FUDR does:

Accomplishments | FUDR
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In addition to our stream restoration project on Sands Creek, the funds are used to support the Hancock Fire Department, East Branch Fire Department, Equinunk Watershed Association, and the Hancock Community Education Foundation.


‘Friends Park’ in Deposit provides a new access point to the river for trout fishermen, birdwatchers and others. A viewing access of the river will be completed in 2014.

Continue work on a comprehensive stream restoration project of Sands and Cadosia creeks in Delaware County, N.Y., partnering with the Town of Hancock, Delaware County Department of Public Works, Code Blue, National Fish and Wildlife Foundation, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, The Keith Campbell Foundation, Orvis, Patagonia, & Theodore Gordon Flyfishers.
________________________

Not everyone knows about the FUDR. The FUDR has a booth at the Somerset show but how else are they really marketing? Other than that, how do people know about it? I offered to have an FUDR banner on this site but haven't heard back yet. This was months ago.

Dennis, Very well said and I agree. A lot of friendships were torn over the old divisions and groups, each who fought tooth and nail that their plan was the right one. But now, more than ever, as you pointed out, we speak as a unified voice with a lot of support, scientific, political, damn we even have the towns of Hancock and Deposit helping with some of the restoration projects by donating machines and manpower. We have National Orgs, political lobbyists and the states pretty much are speaking with one voice. There are some real good things on the horizon, hopefully, but our org is really no different from the model, The Henry's Fork Foundation, except we dont have the membership they do. Why, I dont know. We certainly have more people that can fish up here without planning a week long vacation and is within a 2- 2 1/2 hr. drive from millions.
I thought that you did in fact have the banner up on your site. Well it should be, especially since you are the official One Bug Photographer
Thanks.

 

[JOE.T]

Bravo Bravo Jeff and Dennis

Please click on the Pic

 

[Kilgour Farms]

Just adding my two cents. Eastbranch has no zoning. The dike was built by the USACE for ice control not flooding. The dike is two feet lower then what would be required for flood protection and insurance. New structures needs to be two feet above the dike, so stilted building would be required to meet FEMA flood insurance requirements.

As far as releases, until they stop counting the releases from PPL Lake Wallenpaupack you're not going to get the releases you want. NYC is taking more more water out of the Delaware system because of the increased turbidity in the Catskill system and if you think they're going to use the Croton system to make up for it I believe you're kidding yourselves, its not going to happen.

As far as anchor ice it not only increases the didymo by not having it but it also leaves gravels bars in the river since the anchor ice carries the gravel down river.

I don't see much change in the FFMP until they stop counting Wallenpaupack towards the 1750 at Montague.

Just my opinion but having lived on the river for most of my life I have seen the changes and most of the changes have been detrimental to the rivers ecology and advantageous to NYC. As the Deputy Director of the NYCDEP recently state at a UDC meeting, "its our water anything left over is everyone else's". That pretty much sums up NYCDEP's opinion about the fisheries and down stream ecology, don't you think?

 

[TR]

Just adding my two cents...

As the Deputy Director of the NYCDEP recently state at a UDC meeting, "its our water anything left over is everyone else's". That pretty much sums up NYCDEP's opinion about the fisheries and down stream ecology, don't you think?

---------

Hello.

Scroll on timebar on youtube video to the 22 minute mark for Tom Murphy of NYC DEP talk about the Upper Delaware River.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYVUNqzk754

 

[brachycentrus]

Just adding my two cents. Eastbranch has no zoning. The dike was built by the USACE for ice control not flooding. The dike is two feet lower then what would be required for flood protection and insurance. New structures needs to be two feet above the dike, so stilted building would be required to meet FEMA flood insurance requirements.

As far as releases, until they stop counting the releases from PPL Lake Wallenpaupack you're not going to get the releases you want. NYC is taking more more water out of the Delaware system because of the increased turbidity in the Catskill system and if you think they're going to use the Croton system to make up for it I believe you're kidding yourselves, its not going to happen.

As far as anchor ice it not only increases the didymo by not having it but it also leaves gravels bars in the river since the anchor ice carries the gravel down river.

I don't see much change in the FFMP until they stop counting Wallenpaupack towards the 1750 at Montague.

Just my opinion but having lived on the river for most of my life I have seen the changes and most of the changes have been detrimental to the rivers ecology and advantageous to NYC. As the Deputy Director of the NYCDEP recently state at a UDC meeting, "its our water anything left over is everyone else's". That pretty much sums up NYCDEP's opinion about the fisheries and down stream ecology, don't you think?

You nailed it Fred. I think in Revision 7, language was omitted that required NYC to release the same amount out of the reservoirs to compensate for whatever Wallenpaupak dumped in. Then the whitewater groups became parties to the FERC relicensing when they opened RIO back up, requiring whitewater recreational releases and they got it. It used to be, at minimum, you could count on weekend releases out of the reservoirs, but now both Rio and Wallenpaupak stagger their releases every other weekend. One weekend its, Rio, the next is Wallenpaupak so the net effect is no releases out of either reservoir to protect the habitat.

You also were correct with the quote. NYC doesnt give a damn about the fishery. Two years in a row, the browns came up the WB to spawn up in Stilesville, there were releases that put the river somewhere between 750-1000. The browns came up, dug their redds, layed their eggs and NYC dropped the flow down to 225 or so, exposing the redds. This kind of stuff is commonplace, but not at the rate as before because of the number of eyes on what NY is doing and THAT is where FUDR comes in handy. They actually, although it's hard to believe, have relationships down in New York so that they can call directly or have a member of the Decree party make the call and request a release. Sometimes it works and sometimes NYC just doesnt give a damn.

Hopefully, the ongoing economic impact statement will lend some weight to what we are trying to do. The Croton water is important and could be used if filtered. I would like to think that fisherman who use the resourse would gladly pay for a trout stamp or something similiar to help defray the costs of a filtration plant. I dont have the answers and easily get frustrated with the politics and personalities, but I've been fighting this since before there was even a DRF. Back then it was known as the Delaware Coalition and was really just a bunch of guides and shops with no real organization. What we have today is an immense improvement and I would love to see it hit the same popularity of the Henry's Fork Foundation. I think it could be argued that we have a more robust fishery and insect pops that have never reached their potential.

And like many others, I would like to see the return of the anchor ice. I know Jim doesnt agree with the premise, but the siltation, algae, dydmo, changing insect populations and the end of the massive alewive dumps when the reservoir thawed, have all occurred after the winter voids were incorporated.

And one more thing that really galls me and probably most arent even aware of is that when they close the river to protect spawning trout, the tribs are still open with a 5 fish daily limit and you can bet the farm that the locals are fully aware of it.
McBride, the Regional Biologist retired last year and I have have had a couple conversations with the new guy. He seems ok and seems to recognize the uniquness of what we have here. Hopefully he appreciates it and takes me up on my offer to float him down the river anytime.