Protect The Delaware River!!!!!

[Stonefly]

Sorry, Agust, but in this case pouring $ into TU and being "part of the solution" does not appear to be the same thing. In fact, from what I am hearing, membership dollars can't be used for staffing this campaign. So what exactly ARE they used for? Geez. Keep in mind TU takes in $4 million in member dues alone.

TU should be on top of this, not because someone complains - member or not - but because its their freaking mission!!!! Did we forget that?

Your quip about the universe just convinces me that there are no answers to the questions I asked and never have been.

I sympathize with the local TU folks who are throwing spitballs at tanks. However, that needs to change. Heavy artillery is needed and groups like TU and the Delaware Riverkeeper should provide it.

We have had two staff hired under grants for the Delaware, both moved on. National has been looking for funding to hire a new person without success. NJ Council and NY Council kicked in for funding of the last two and will again, but we also have limited funding, and in NJ putting our funds into the Musky. Ross you are a dedicated conseervation volunteer, we all know that, but it seems that your primary goal in this thread is to beat up on TU.

 

[Stonefly]

TU's financial info is public record and can be fund on the TU website,

As of 2006 total income was 20,535,000 Expenditure 18,925,000. TU by outside auditors has one of the largest return of income to projects of any non-profit. They actual use the income from dues mostly to pay staff, and help fund the chapter council rebates, and put dollars into embrace a stream projects. Its fine to demand financial accounting from the outside, but I for one is real tired of hearing it.

Yes more needs to be done to support the problems on the Delaware, I know that, TU National knows that, but arm chair quaterbacking and bashing the work across the country that TU does mostly with grants does no good and only harms the work we do here andacross the country. Statements like those of some on this thread, which can and will show up on google actual hurt us in grants.

Unless the consent states stand up to NYC there is very little that TU or anyone else can force them to do. Robert Kennedy Jr, has been a leader in fighting NYC especialy in the leaks in their system, with all his high profile what has he been able to do? Nada!

 

[MACFLY]

Macfly,

As I mentioned (think Agust did also), TU would love to have a full time staffer on the D. Problem has been that we cannot get proper funding. You can read into that whatever you'd like: foundations don't see any benefit to funding a person who can't achieve clear goals given the issue at hand, TU hasn't worked hard enough to find the proper funding source, or whatever. I know national works hard on it and since we still do not have anyone (we did in the past, BTW), they have had to lean on the 3 state councils and two principal staffers at the Arlington office, neither of whom is funded for this. Yet they work on it anyway because TU does know how important this fishery is to our members. Is it an ideal situation? No, but it is our present reality.

As Agust also stated, be careful what you wish for in overturning the current FFMP. We would revert to rev. 1 which would be 45 cfs release out of Cannonsville right now. What we (angling community) need is to stay UNITED and stop squabbling on fishing forums and all pull together to demonstrate to NYC that we expect positive change while going about putting political pressure on key decision makers, continuing a media campaign and advocating on behalf of the river. As Warren Zevon so aptly put it: "bring lawyers, guns and money, the sh*t has hit the fan".

Rusty

Agree on all points and especially on the what you wish for part. If you didnt read the beginning of this thread I made a comment I seem to make at least once a year which is to ask those who are complaining about FFMP to state how they would do it differently and to ask if FFMP wasnt in place would the river be worse off or better off. I certainly do not want to point fingers at anyone. Any questions I ask are just that...questions. So I think its ok for this to get a publich airing so everyone at least knows what is going on right now and what the current plans are. It is also incumbent upon each of us to participate in any way we can. I will be down in Trenton for the meeting. Its the least I can do.

 

[rossk]

We have had two staff hired under grants for the Delaware, both moved on. National has been looking for funding to hire a new person without success. NJ Council and NY Council kicked in for funding of the last two and will again, but we also have limited funding, and in NJ putting our funds into the Musky. Ross you are a dedicated conseervation volunteer, we all know that, but it seems that your primary goal in this thread is to beat up on TU.

Rick,

You are missing my point completely. I know the NY/NJ councils are volunteer run, and have limited funding. Believe me, I understand the limitations. The only bone I have to pick with them is that there doesn't seem to be any kind of organized campaign for the Delaware. I have asked, over and over, for someone to lay out the proposed plans, goals and/or strategy. No dice.

TU National, on the other hand, is a large organization with lots of cash, supposedly dedicated to issues precisely like the Delaware. The lack of initiative, organization and leadership on this front is astounding. That's not bashing, its fact.

 

[rossk]

TU's financial info is public record and can be fund on the TU website,

As of 2006 total income was 20,535,000 Expenditure 18,925,000. TU by outside auditors has one of the largest return of income to projects of any non-profit. They actual use the income from dues mostly to pay staff, and help fund the chapter council rebates, and put dollars into embrace a stream projects. Its fine to demand financial accounting from the outside, but I for one is real tired of hearing it.

Yes more needs to be done to support the problems on the Delaware, I know that, TU National knows that, but arm chair quaterbacking and bashing the work across the country that TU does mostly with grants does no good and only harms the work we do here andacross the country. Statements like those of some on this thread, which can and will show up on google actual hurt us in grants.

Unless the consent states stand up to NYC there is very little that TU or anyone else can force them to do. Robert Kennedy Jr, has been a leader in fighting NYC especialy in the leaks in their system, with all his high profile what has he been able to do? Nada!

Again, Rick I am not bashing the work TU does nationwide. Only here!

Your statements about being unable to force the issue and on Kennedy's failure simply underline the pervasive defeatist attitude I am seeing. Throwing your hands in the air should not be an option. There are plenty of things that can be and should be done. In fact, I don't think this campaign has ever truly started.

TU should be searching for a real firebrand activist to shake this situation up. Someone with the right background would make your head spin with the possibilities. My intent is to highlight the loss of opportunity rather than ridicule TU.

 

[Stonefly]

Rick,

You are missing my point completely. I know the NY/NJ councils are volunteer run, and have limited funding. Believe me, I understand the limitations. The only bone I have to pick with them is that there doesn't seem to be any kind of organized campaign for the Delaware. I have asked, over and over, for someone to lay out the proposed plans, goals and/or strategy. No dice.

TU National, on the other hand, is a large organization with lots of cash, supposedly dedicated to issues precisely like the Delaware. The lack of initiative, organization and leadership on this front is astounding. That's not bashing, its fact.

It is not an organization with lots of cash this is a misleading statement contary to facts, over 90% of all projects are done with grants raised for those projects. We are in the over all order of non-profits a small organization, that focuses its resources based on the decisions made at the annual national meeting, the old National Resource Board (on which I served for seven years) set the National agenda based on a set of priorities, the national staff then had to work on funding those projects.
The current board now the National Leader Conference works on a more or less same line. TU is run as a very tigh financial ship, seeking grants, donations and partnerships for projects. There is NO CASH JUST SITTING AROUND, I wish to hell there was.

 

[rossk]

It is not an organization with lots of cash this is a misleading statement contary to facts, over 90% of all projects are done with grants raised for those projects. We are in the over all order of non-profits a small organization, that focuses its resources based on the decisions made at the annual national meeting, the old National Resource Board (on which I served for seven years) set the National agenda based on a set of priorities, the national staff then had to work on funding those projects.
The current board now the National Leader Conference works on a more or less same line. TU is run as a very tigh financial ship, seeking grants, donations and partnerships for projects. There is NO CASH JUST SITTING AROUND, I wish to hell there was.

Rick,

There is no cash sitting around? According to the figures you gave me, TU's total income was $20,535,000, while their expenses were $18,925,000. Do the math!

Apparently that $18.9 million is being spent somewhere. But it isn't here. Just one quarter of one percent of that figure would fund a position. I think your National Leader Conference needs to review its priorities.

I applaud you for your loyalty, but with all due respect, this is simply indefensible.

 

[Stonefly]

Yes there is adifference between income and expenditures, and yes I can do the math, the difference is usual cash on hand from grants that apply directly to projects that can't be transfered and already committed.

 

[emerger]

I just emailed everyone on the list but the Joe Miri and Michelle Putnam emails were returned with the message "No such person". Anyone else run into this. I double checked that I didn't make a typo.

Anyone receive a response from any of these individuals?

 

[rossk]

I just emailed everyone on the list but the Joe Miri and Michelle Putnam emails were returned with the message "No such person". Anyone else run into this. I double checked that I didn't make a typo.

Anyone receive a response from any of these individuals?

There were mistakes in the emails listed.

Michele Putnam spells her name with a single "L". Try that.

Joe Miri is no longer listed on the DEP staff.

 

[rossk]

Yes there is adifference between income and expenditures, and yes I can do the math, the difference is usual cash on hand from grants that apply directly to projects that can't be transfered and already committed.

Again, Rick, all that cash goes where the powers that be in TU decide it should go. More of it belongs with the Delaware. Otherwise the dues of local TU members are being poured like sand down a rat hole.

 

[Stonefly]

No Ross it goes where the national leaders conference says it goes.
maybe next year you should go to the national meeting in michigan and actually see how tu works...but enough this subject of bashing tu is getting boring.

 

[rossk]

No Ross it goes where the national leaders conference says it goes.
maybe next year you should go to the national meeting in michigan and actually see how tu works...but enough this subject of bashing tu is getting boring.

Hey, I'm ready to go! I would not come back empty handed.

As far as changing the subject, I agree. Let's talk about the real issue - the Delaware.

What is the TU plan/strategy/approach to getting more water? Next steps? How can concerned anglers assist? I'm all ears.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Rusty

Agree on all points and especially on the what you wish for part. If you didnt read the beginning of this thread I made a comment I seem to make at least once a year which is to ask those who are complaining about FFMP to state how they would do it differently and to ask if FFMP wasnt in place would the river be worse off or better off. I certainly do not want to point fingers at anyone. Any questions I ask are just that...questions. So I think its ok for this to get a publich airing so everyone at least knows what is going on right now and what the current plans are. It is also incumbent upon each of us to participate in any way we can. I will be down in Trenton for the meeting. Its the least I can do.

TU national is working on an email (possibly other format) to all members stating successes and failures of our efforts and of the FFMP itself. It may await approval of our board later this week at our national meeting. Once it is released, you will all read it here. I hope others will do like Macfly and join us in Trenton to show unity to the DRBC.

 

[brachycentrus]

In 2002, Charles Gauvin, Mona Janonpaul and 2 others from TU National came to the DRC to float and to see first hand what the isssues were.

We floated the EB one day and the lower WB and Upper MS, the next.
They left with a good understanding on the issues and concerns.

Let's see, that was six years ago, five flow revisions and amendments, one dam reconstruction and 2 FERC relicensing of hydro plants.

I believe that somewwhere in there, TU, if they had the will, could have done more than say, " We support in concept, but have concerns".................

 

[Rusty Spinner]

I think it's time to throw this thread back at all of you who believe TU is a miserable failure on the Delaware. Let's assume for a minute that my statement is completely true - TU is a miserable failure. Why then don't those of you who do not support TU simply resolve this flow issue? Clearly TU cannot, and many of you have pointed out our failures, so let's see just what your plan is.....

In other words, rather than taking the easy way out and bashing North America's leading coldwater conservation organization, why not spend your time fixing the problem that TU cannot (in your words, not mine)? What say our detractors? By the way, if you volunteer or work for FUDR, DRF, Nature Conservancy, etc., you get a pass as they have also failed miserably regarding the flows.

 

[AKSkim]

Again, Rick I am not bashing the work TU does nationwide. Only here!

TU and NEFF should be searching for a real firebrand AK Skim activist to shake this situation up. Someone with the right background AK Skim would make your head spin AK Skim with the possibilities AK Skim.

Yeah, but where could WE find such a person????

 

[AKSkim]

Hey, I'm ready to go! I would not come back empty handed hotel receipt, car rental receipt, bar bill (humm I just might join you).

As far as changing the subject, I agree. Let's talk about the real issue - the Delaware I don't see any real problem up there.

What is the TU plan pray/strategy rain dance /approach to getting more water build a dam? Next steps Get the Damn Dam The Anit-man working on it? How can concerned anglers assist volunteer? I'm all ears with your fishing hat on I've noticed.

I always have the correct answers.

AK Skim

 

[Agust]

I always have the INcorrect answers.

AK Skim

Post Fixed.

 

[rossk]

In 2002, Charles Gauvin, Mona Janonpaul and 2 others from TU National came to the DRC to float and to see first hand what the isssues were.

We floated the EB one day and the lower WB and Upper MS, the next.
They left with a good understanding on the issues and concerns.

Let's see, that was six years ago, five flow revisions and amendments, one dam reconstruction and 2 FERC relicensing of hydro plants.

I believe that somewwhere in there, TU, if they had the will, could have done more than say, " We support in concept, but have concerns".................

I remember it well. At the time Gauvin made a speech where he described the East Branch as a "shoulder" fishery, meaning it is good in spring and fall but lousy in summer. Six years later, and the mainstem has become a shoulder fishery.

 

[rossk]

I think it's time to throw this thread back at all of you who believe TU is a miserable failure on the Delaware. Let's assume for a minute that my statement is completely true - TU is a miserable failure. Why then don't those of you who do not support TU simply resolve this flow issue? Clearly TU cannot, and many of you have pointed out our failures, so let's see just what your plan is.....

In other words, rather than taking the easy way out and bashing North America's leading coldwater conservation organization, why not spend your time fixing the problem that TU cannot (in your words, not mine)? What say our detractors? By the way, if you volunteer or work for FUDR, DRF, Nature Conservancy, etc., you get a pass as they have also failed miserably regarding the flows.

Fine with me, but lets provide a level playing field. Turn over the dues you collect from the NY, NJ and PA chapters. With that funding I could run rings around what TU has accomplished to-date.

I would start by setting up a website with accurate, current info on the situation and list ways there that anglers can contribute or assist. I would kick-start a media campaign by arranging press events, getting out letters-to-the-editor, and writing opinion pieces. I would be consulting with an attorney to develop a legal strategy, coordinating efforts with other groups and, above all, HIRING STAFF. That's month 1. Want me to go on?

Frankly, its not that TU "cannot" get it done. It has more to do with a lack of will and leadership.

 

[klg neighbor]

Ross - Why don't you volunteer for the position of spearheading this initiative? You apparently know what is needed, have the drive and background success to get-er-done.

Although, part of the job may require for you to convince National TU (or whichever organization you chose to be affiliated with) and possibly other contributors to fund the effort, but that's part of the job. Beside, someone as outspoken and enthusiastic as you should be able to pull that off.

I wish you success and you have my support and a few dollars contribution if you get the position. Once you're settled in, I look forward to reading your outlined proposals and timetable. Good Luck!

My opinions are mine. I do not represent anyone else but myself.

Fine with me, but lets provide a level playing field. Turn over the dues you collect from the NY, NJ and PA chapters. With that funding I could run rings around what TU has accomplished to-date.

I would start by setting up a website with accurate, current info on the situation and list ways there that anglers can contribute or assist. I would kick-start a media campaign by arranging press events, getting out letters-to-the-editor, and writing opinion pieces. I would be consulting with an attorney to develop a legal strategy, coordinating efforts with other groups and, above all, HIRING STAFF. That's month 1. Want me to go on?

Frankly, its not that TU "cannot" get it done. It has more to do with a lack of will and leadership.

 

[MACFLY]

Ross - Why don't you volunteer for the position of spearheading this initiative? You apparently know what is needed, have the drive and background success to get-er-done.

Although, part of the job may require for you to convince National TU (or whichever organization you chose to be affiliated with) and possibly other contributors to fund the effort, but that's part of the job. Beside, someone as outspoken and enthusiastic as you should be able to pull that off.

I wish you success and you have my support and a few dollars contribution if you get the position. Once you're settled in, I look forward to reading your outlined proposals and timetable. Good Luck!

My opinions are mine. I do not represent anyone else but myself.

I think the issue here is that no one wants to hear any criticism about this issue. Some may not like what RossK is saying but some of his statements have merit. Frankly its a lot better than visiting this forum every spring to hear people beat the crap out of Jim Serio or to complain that the temps are too high on the mainstream to fish for trout. Does RossK have all the answers ...probably not...but he has some suggestions that might be wise to consider. Now to be clear I hold nothing against Rusty Spinner or other TU members that are working the issue and I believe you all have expressed some similar sentiments about folks getting involved. So whats holding everyone back?

 

[rossk]

Ross - Why don't you volunteer for the position of spearheading this initiative? You apparently know what is needed, have the drive and background success to get-er-done.

Although, part of the job may require for you to convince National TU (or whichever organization you chose to be affiliated with) and possibly other contributors to fund the effort, but that's part of the job. Beside, someone as outspoken and enthusiastic as you should be able to pull that off.

I wish you success and you have my support and a few dollars contribution if you get the position. Once you're settled in, I look forward to reading your outlined proposals and timetable. Good Luck!

My opinions are mine. I do not represent anyone else but myself.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I have my hands full running my own organization.

From what I can see there is already a lot of enthusiasm here and great people, although they seem to have lost their direction.

Going forward, the clearest vision appears to be coming from FUDR. Their website states what is needed quite clearly and concisely. Other groups would do well to support their goals.

What is lacking is a well-thought-out campaign to get there. TU could - and should - assist by providing staff and funding. The Delaware Riverkeeper has the expertise in litigation. Combined, these organizations could accomplish a great deal.

 

[rossk]

I think the issue here is that no one wants to hear any criticism about this issue. Some may not like what RossK is saying but some of his statements have merit. Frankly its a lot better than visiting this forum every spring to hear people beat the crap out of Jim Serio or to complain that the temps are too high on the mainstream to fish for trout. Does RossK have all the answers ...probably not...but he has some suggestions that might be wise to consider. Now to be clear I hold nothing against Rusty Spinner or other TU members that are working the issue and I believe you all have expressed some similar sentiments about folks getting involved. So whats holding everyone back?

Exactly. I'm just stating what a lot of people are thinking but are too polite to say. If the TU reps on this board took this as constructive criticism rather than an attack, they would be getting somewhere. Fewer excuses, more ideas.

 

[Agust]

Fine with me, but lets provide a level playing field. Turn over the dues you collect from the NY, NJ and PA chapters. With that funding I could run rings around what TU has accomplished to-date.

I guess we can forget about any support for the coal reclimation in PA, the home rivers projects on Kettle Creek, the Musky, monitoring brook trout recovery in the Ads, better just open the gates on the Gas drilling in NY, sacrifice the Atlantic Salmon restoration effort by the guys in Syracuse, scrap the West Canada Creek project, No need to fund TIC in NYC, just close down the Didymo studies, fire Elizabeth Maclin, Nat Gillespe, Brian Cowden and Rochelle (forgot her last name). No more rebates for NJ, PA and NY. Screw the Battenkill, Batavia Creek, the Letort, Falling Spring, Cedar Run, Young Womans Creek and Black Oil Creek we need to pay Ross to write press releases.

Ross, since this is so important maybe its time to empty the coffers of the Pequonock River Coallition, or simply return the initial money we kicked in back when you were starting it. After all you have no use for cash now that the Pequonnock has no more issues.

I'm not sure how else to say this. TU does not have unlimited funds. The money is already dedicated to a whole host of other fires throughout the nation. Yes the Delaware is important, but abandoning everything else is not an option. The funds donated to national to fund Acid mine relief, or to restore Brook Trout in Tennesee must by dedicated to that, and cannot be used to fund lawsuits (especially ones with no hope of victory) on the Delaware. Donations made to restore the Battenkill, Kettle Creek or the Musky are not available to fund the Delaware, just like your funds donated to the Pequonnock stay dedicated to it.

We know this is important, and the fact you don't like how things are being done is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Feel free to do it better, comments about TU, FUDR, DRF, DRC, Riverkeeper and everyone else failing to meet your expectation are not helping. If your intentions are good, and I suspect they are, then you need to change your attack rhetoric. TU is not the enemy, the self serving water hording of NYC is. Your attacking comments force divisiveness among those who should be allies, and quite frankly that kind of crap between TU, FUDR,DRF,DRC contributed to the current mess. Those groups are all pulling together now, and your lone voice pointing out that we are doing it all wrong ain't helping.

 

[rossk]

I guess we can forget about any support for the coal reclimation in PA, the home rivers projects on Kettle Creek, the Musky, monitoring brook trout recovery in the Ads, better just open the gates on the Gas drilling in NY, sacrifice the Atlantic Salmon restoration effort by the guys in Syracuse, scrap the West Canada Creek project, No need to fund TIC in NYC, just close down the Didymo studies, fire Elizabeth Maclin, Nat Gillespe, Brian Cowden and Rochelle (forgot her last name). No more rebates for NJ, PA and NY. Screw the Battenkill, Batavia Creek, the Letort, Falling Spring, Cedar Run, Young Womans Creek and Black Oil Creek we need to pay Ross to write press releases.

Ross, since this is so important maybe its time to empty the coffers of the Pequonock River Coallition, or simply return the initial money we kicked in back when you were starting it. After all you have no use for cash now that the Pequonnock has no more issues.

I'm not sure how else to say this. TU does not have unlimited funds. The money is already dedicated to a whole host of other fires throughout the nation. Yes the Delaware is important, but abandoning everything else is not an option. The funds donated to national to fund Acid mine relief, or to restore Brook Trout in Tennesee must by dedicated to that, and cannot be used to fund lawsuits (especially ones with no hope of victory) on the Delaware. Donations made to restore the Battenkill, Kettle Creek or the Musky are not available to fund the Delaware, just like your funds donated to the Pequonnock stay dedicated to it.

We know this is important, and the fact you don't like how things are being done is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Feel free to do it better, comments about TU, FUDR, DRF, DRC, Riverkeeper and everyone else failing to meet your expectation are not helping. If your intentions are good, and I suspect they are, then you need to change your attack rhetoric. TU is not the enemy, the self serving water hording of NYC is. Your attacking comments force divisiveness among those who should be allies, and quite frankly that kind of crap between TU, FUDR,DRF,DRC contributed to the current mess. Those groups are all pulling together now, and your lone voice pointing out that we are doing it all wrong ain't helping.

Agust,

I don't know what the Pequannock (not 'Pequonock') River Coalition has to do with this. I am not speaking here on behalf of my group, just as a concerned angler. But when we started, we were fighting Newark for flows out of Oak Ridge Reservoir. Almost everyone in TU told me it couldn't be done, can't fight city hall, forget it. I raise about $8,000 - peanuts really - but with that I hired an attorney, beat Newark, got the flows and returned half of the $8,000 to the parties who contributed, including TU. Believe me, you got more than your money's worth.

Sadly, you are making my point. If TU has the resources to fund 9 projects and 4 staff people they can cough up the dough for the Delaware. At some point, Agust, you have to quit making excuses and admit that you have gotten waaaaay off track. The best defense is not always a good offense.

Again, I ask how are you "pulling together"? What's the plan? Where are we headed???? Give me something, anything that sounds like a strategy and a vision for the future.

 

[COZ]

Rusty Spinner,

Yes we might revert back rto Rev 7 or perhaps Rev 1 But remember that they both had habitat banks and temp targets built in for times like this.

COZ

 

[COZ]

Agust,

I commend the STATE councels NY,PA,NJ for stepping up. I hope NATIONAL sees the light. Keep the pressure on!!!!

COZ

 

[MACFLY]

Rusty Spinner,

Yes we might revert back rto Rev 7 or perhaps Rev 1 But remember that they both had habitat banks and temp targets built in for times like this.

COZ

COZ this may be true but as I recall there were many posts on this forum complaining about non enforcement of the habitat bank and the temp targets. In other words it was useless to have this without enforcement. It was not uncommon to get requests for an email campaign to call for releases. This situation sucks and it wasnt any better before the FFMP. I do hope that National TU makes this one of their top focal issues. I realize the D is not the only project but lets face it folks. There are dam few rivers of this caliber around in NA so its fair to say it needs some more attention.