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Hancock herald Letter to Editor - fallout because of a "threatened Lawsuit"

Fly Tier

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<acronym style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: 7pt; font-family: Times;"> This is cut and pasted from the Hancock Herald website

Dear Editor,
</acronym><acronym style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: 7pt; font-family: Times;">
</acronym> <acronym style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: 11pt; font-family: Times;"> As the river front landowner above Bouchoux Brook, and the authorized landowner below the brook, I am hereby CLOSING FISHING ACCESS along the Bouchoux Brook trail extension to the river, from the Bouchoux Brook Forest Preserve.
This decision, for me is very hard, but, due to certain individuals, organizations and the State D.E.C policy, I must close this vital fishing access over our private property!
Through the years, I have become very friendly with, and have made good friends of, the majority of the fisher people, but, with the recent events, this action must be taken now.
As stated in the D.E.C signs at the State Parking Lot, "as long as the area is treated with respect and care the trail will remain open" and, our desires have not been met. So, therefore The ACCESS IS CLOSED FOR FISHING, PERIOD! This will not affect others who wish to get to the river over our private lands (once the trail is restored)
As after the tornadoes, I called and wrote several of the so called trout clubs or organizations and environmentalists asking for help in clearing all the fallen trees that were over the trail - no response. But, one fisherman millionaire actually tried to sue me due to a twisted ankle while he was climbing over fallen trees! Absurd!
The access for fishing will remain closed until when my road is repaired by these "elite fishing clubs" and our river front cabin replaced by our millionaire fishing friends. I did not receive FEMA funding for either of the above damage caused by failed State D.E.C. and the powerful lobbying by these “extreme environmentalists” ( I, as a Democrat, am an environmentalist, and I am also a licensed Landscape Architect ASLA).
The damage was not covered by FEMA due to 2nd property and flood plain also absurd and another subject!
This personal property damage to me, as a long time year round resident in Lordville, is an extreme financial loss, but most fisherman and millionaires and elite fishing clubs make the cost of my needed repairs - replacement in a matter of weeks, if not just a few days!
They have large signs on the PA. side of Hancock about their "extensive private fishing access" and "posted, private club access" along their riverfront. Well Gentlemen, keep your guests there, and not in Lordville or Bouchouxville!. This also other groups which have been known to trespass also.
While we, as Hardenburg Patent Landowners, own the land along with the "land covered by water" to the state line, we do not own the aquatic environment. In simple terms, gentlemen, we own the land and access to one of your best fishing areas to the river and all the river front, and we will not allow ANYONE to fish anymore.
Stamp out the powerful trout lobby and let the local residents swim in a warm river and fish for Bass!</acronym><acronym align="right" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: right; text-indent: 11pt; font-family: Times;">

Sincerely,
David Sauro</acronym>, Lordville

How about this one!

<acronym style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: 8pt; font-family: Times;"> Dear Editor,</acronym>
<acronym style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: 8pt; font-family: Times;"> I have read, with great interest, the past flood editions of The Herald. Of particular interest was the article concerning the 100 year history of flooding.
So let me see if I understand this. The area has seen this flooding for 100 years or more, yet you put 15 school buses and your city administration building all in obviously known flood plains. Not to mention residences.
Only two words come to mind - sheer stupidity. Mr. Sauro, did I spell that right?
I live on this river, but 200 miles downstream. When we have persistent property damage from floods, the properties are bought out. People move away from the threat.
But not you people, no, you’re tough - you’ll rebuild. You’ll rape every tributary within your reach, but you won’t move anything. Real smart. Letter writers and editorials speak of moving gravel bars and strainers. I’ve seen some of the tribs. They were turned into rock lined culverts. You know what, the next time the West Branch is flowing at 25,000 cfs and the main stem is a 100,000 cfs, you’ll flood again, because setting the water down the trib faster doesn’t matter. When the same water runs into a 25,000 cfs wall, it backs up, people.
So what will Sam Rowe and the rest of you belligerent loudmouths do then? Drag your backhoes into the West Branch and main stem? Deepen these channels, so you don’t have to move 1/4 mile?
Also, in response to Mr. Peckham’s diatribe on catch and release. I don’t care about your ignorant opinion. Just because one owns land in the area doesn’t entitle him to set policy. The black bass are also invasive. In fact, with the exception of the shad and eels, the whole system could have been introduced. Also in your expert explanation of the fishery, you failed to mention Dan Cahill’s stocking of Callicoon Creek with rainbow trout. That strain thrived. The stocking happened long before 1960. 1880 is more like it. Granted, the dams have created the fishery. I find it hard to understand this war between fishermen and some very vocal residents. I’ve fished from ocean City, Maryland to Lake Ontario and never witnessed the type of reaction from locals that I’ve seen here. It surely is “shoot yourself in the foot” thinking.
So go ahead, have your way, destroy the fishery. You may be too stupid to move, but I’m not. I’ll relocate to any number of rivers I know where the townsfolk realize and protect what they have. They’re too smart to engage in the kind of spitting contest you’ve gotten yourselves into. Full speed ahead, morons.</acronym>

Steven M. Painter
 
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Interesting views. Access has always been a particular problem on this fishery. Sooner, or maybe later, there'll hardly be any public access and then no one will give a damn about these rivers as trout fisheries. The clout of the fly fishing enthusiasts will become benign because whatever interest they have will be gone. The local economies, private and public, will lose much of the tourist monies and tax revenues. The shops, especially those geared to the seasonal fishers, will suffer and perhaps be forced to close.

In time, membership in the "elite clubs" referenced won't be worth the price of a campsite. Those who bought those beautiful cabins along the river will be kicking themselves and a new type of 'hatch' will be visible: 'FOR SALE'.

Allan
 
David Sauro said:
As after the tornadoes, I called and wrote several of the so called trout clubs or organizations and environmentalists asking for help in clearing all the fallen trees that were over the trail - no response.
I'm surprised and perplexed that David couldn't find the help he was looking for. I think he may have been looking in the wrong places. I'd be curious to know if he contacted any of the local TU chapters for this. Did anyone here know that David was looking for help?

David Sauo said:
one fisherman millionaire actually tried to sue me due to a twisted ankle while he was climbing over fallen trees! Absurd!
It's people like this fisherman who ruin everything for everyone. It's too bad a tree didn't fall on him. This is probably why there is so much posted land. I would imagine instances like this combined with litter are the main reasons for posted land. Hey David... We're sorry to lose the access, but understand that there are a-hole people out there like the one that tried to sue you.

Access or no access... If you read this and still want me to come down with the chainsaw, I'd be happy to help.
 
Dennis, have you walked down to Bushyville since the flood? There are already signs posted by the people that own the little store along the road to Bushyville stating "If you have problems with Dave Sauro contact us, we own this land." You can still access the river there. Dennis, have you seen any of the correspondance concerning this alledged law suit? I don't think so. There are no trees laying anywhere as of a month ago when I fished at that access. This guy is looking for a free handout Dennis, one I don't think he is going to get.

Rich
 
Dennis, have you walked down to Bushyville since the flood? There are already signs posted by the people that own the little store along the road to Bushyville stating "If you have problems with Dave Sauro contact us, we own this land." You can still access the river there. Dennis, have you seen any of the correspondance concerning this alledged law suit? I don't think so. There are no trees laying anywhere as of a month ago when I fished at that access. This guy is looking for a free handout Dennis, one I don't think he is going to get.

Rich
I haven't walked down there in 2 years! I don't know Dave Sauro at all, and only based my thoughts and posted my opinions on what was posted here.

Dave says that he owns the land and that someone tried to sue him while climbing over some limbs. I figured that since Dave says, "as the river front landowner above Bouchoux Brook, and the authorized landowner below the brook", I figure he had the right to be ****ed that someone would try to sue him. I'm sure if you gave free access out to people to cross over your land to fish a stream, and they fell and broke a leg in the process of getting to the stream while on your land, and tried to sue you, you would be ****ed too.

If you're saying that Dave is only claiming to own the land when in fact he doesn't, then that's another story. It still bothers me however, that someone would try to sue him.

I don't have the entire story. As a matter of fact, I didn't realize there was another story. You have to understand that my interpretation of the situation came directly from his quote. Obviously you're a little more in tune with the situation than I am.

Now a question for you... What exactly did I say that obviously offended you? I said I would help the guy out by bringing a chainsaw, just as I've offered to a few others up that way. I also said that I thought a tree should fall on anyone getting injured on somone elses property while trying to access the river, then trying to sue. I said I was perplexed that being the situation, he sent out letters to various organizations (without mentioning any of them) that none of them helped him out... THen I questioned whether or not he contacted TU chapters.

I'm not against you on this, Rich, but you have to understand that I have no reason to doubt anything this person said, just as I have no reason to doubt anything you say. Innocent until proven guilty is how this country works.

From my point of view and reading the paragraphs submitted by Dave, he appears to be a good guy who was willing to let people use his property to access the river. There was no indication in his letter leading me to believe anything other than that.
 
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Rich,

While I certainly hope that Mr. Sauro reconsiders his position and eventually allows access from his property to the river, he owns the land and can post it as he sees fit. His vision is 20/20 when he talks about the "extensive private fishing access" and "posted, private club access" along the West Branch and Mainstem. To protect their investments and their value in relation to the well being of the trout fishery, these people are the first to call for public action concerning water levels, water temps and controlled flow rates. Yet, these are the land owners whose very first action after buying property is to 'Post It' to keep the public off their land. So, in essence, they want/demand public support while at the same time want to eliminate the public from having access.

As far as the person who wanted to sue because he tripped and sprained an ankle - what a crock. Too bad his name isn't printed for all to see. I can't understand why the courts or legislature can't establish a 'traveler beware' law so that these ridiculous and frivilous lawsuits are thrown out of court. Or, if found innocent, the landowner should be repaid the cost of defending himself as well as punitive damages.

Allan
 
Dennis, I'm just frustrated with the situation up there. I've been there for the better part of 20yrs. I plan on retiring there, and now alot of what I've seen is ruined with the help of the powers that be. It really isn't what it was when I first started. Nothing personal.

Rich
 
Allan,
The New York State General Obligations law protects landowners from lawsuits just like the one mentioned above. If anyone is interested in reading it the section is 9-103. Basically it states that a landowner can not be sued where someone is injured while recreating on the property, such as fishing , hunting , snowmobiling etc. People still try to sue but the cases get dismissed.
 
Allan,
The New York State General Obligations law protects landowners from lawsuits just like the one mentioned above. If anyone is interested in reading it the section is 9-103. Basically it states that a landowner can not be sued where someone is injured while recreating on the property, such as fishing , hunting , snowmobiling etc. People still try to sue but the cases get dismissed.

Hello Sir!,

How've you been?

Your post makes it seem as if there is no grounds for a lawsuit if someone hurts themself while on a landowner's property while engaging in those listed activities. Is that true? It seems that if a landowner invites someone onto their property(in this case by allowing it's use as a means of access) that their inability to make that access safe for the "invitees" would constitute some sort of responsibility. Now of course if they were uninvited onto the property, well that's a horse of a different color.

have a great day!

John
 
Yes, it's true John. There are some exceptions of course. If the landowner charges a fee for using the property he loses the benefit of the law. It's best to read the section and any cases that have arisen in the Courts. I successfully defended a lawsuit where a fisherman fell along a stream. He tripped on some rebar along the stream that had been placed there by the landowner. He broke his ankle and had to have hardware put in. I cited GOL 9-103 and the Supreme Court Judge dismissed it. So it is true, landowners are protected (with few exceptions).
 
I successfully defended a lawsuit where a fisherman fell along a stream. He tripped on some rebar along the stream that had been placed there by the landowner. He broke his ankle and had to have hardware put in. I cited GOL 9-103 and the Supreme Court Judge dismissed it.

So now I know who to call when I find myself in that kind of jam (Could I get you to defend me up here? I know a few, rather local, fishing spots where I can make your down time between appearances in court enjoyable, and there's always the Hall of fame, just down the road from the courthouse...). :)
 
Allan,
The New York State General Obligations law protects landowners from lawsuits just like the one mentioned above. If anyone is interested in reading it the section is 9-103. Basically it states that a landowner can not be sued where someone is injured while recreating on the property, such as fishing , hunting , snowmobiling etc. People still try to sue but the cases get dismissed.

Thanks for that information. It seems funny, or maybe it's just my perception, that the threat of lawsuits is the usual reason and response that landowners cite for posting their land. Perhaps the landowners, especially as it relates to fishing, should be better informed about the protection they are afforded? Of course there are the landowners who post their land, the "elitist clubs and millionaires" previously referenced, whose desire is to simply keep the water to themselves.

Allan
 
Not to mention, litter. Unfortunately, if you have just 1 guy who decides to leave his trash behind, that might set a landowner off too. There is no reason anyone should have to pick up after someone else.
 
Another thing that gets land posted is ill mannered treatment of landowners that allow access for fishing on their property. Case in point is what happened to me this past spring. I was fishing with a friend along the stretch of the lower East Branch just upstream from Fishs' Eddy. I have been fishing here for 20 years.The land was always private but access to all was always allowed without asking.There are a # of pulloffs along the back road that runs along the river. I was fishing a pool that is very well known to anglers.A picture of it that was taken from the road is in a book by Tom Rosenbauer. I think the title of the book is "Rivers". A truck pulls up and a gentlemen gets out who I latter found out was Mr. Hubbel.His family owns most of the stretch of river along there. He said " This land is posted and there is no public fishing along here." I was a little stunned as I have spent a lot of my life fishing along here. When I asked why ,after all these years he was posting the land along the river ,he said " Ask Walt Ackerman,he's the one thats responsible for this." I said " Walt Ackerman,the guide from Catskill Flies. " Mr. Hubbel said " That's right. Walt Ackerman the guide." I asked what had happened between them. He said," He ****ed me off.We'll leave it at that. You can thank him for me posting the land.And I got all my neighbors to do the same.I just about got all the land along the river from East Branch to Fishs' Eddy posted and Walt Ackerman is the reason why." I was floored. I sent a message to Mr. Ackerman via the Catskillflies forum. I got no response from Mr. Ackerman. Some freinds of mine,who also fish that stretch, went to the shop to inquire. From the responses that they received and some investigations from mutual parties, it became clear that Mr. Ackerman had clients fishing there and was parked in an area that he should not have. I have seen Walt do the same thing along the Beaverkill.Park in spots that are marked as private when the owner is not there. Well Mr. Hubbel asked him to move his car and Mr. Ackerman responded by stating that the posted sign at that location was not legal because of some information that was missing from the sign.Things evidently got heated between them and Walt told Mr.Hubbel to F**K OFF. Well the sign is legal now and many,many more have been added and a prime access is now lost to us. Thanks Walt !
 
Dennis,

I dislike litter as much as most do. Now by 'litter' I mean stuff someone may drop because of lazyness or because they are simply inconsiderate. Like most of us do, I pick up litter that I see and carry it out. We certainly don't get all of it but for the most part, we leave an area cleaner than when we arrived. While I don't appreciate it, if a landowner posts their land to restrict access so people can't cross the land, fish, hunt, hike or just take in the view, that is their right. However, imho the subject of 'litter' is just a 'red herring' that landowners use as an excuse.

Now I am not talking about dumping appliances, mattresses, battaries, and the like. I am not talking about some yahoos having a campfire, leaving a burnt pit with 'garbage' strewn all around. That falls under an entirely different catagory of tresspassing.


EB - Ouch. That's gotta hurt. If your information is correct, I can't say that I blame the guy(Mr.Hubbel). Has anyone tried to contact Mr. Ackerman or Dennis Skarka and suggest that a line of communication and apology is in order?

Allan
 
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Mayfly, Allan,
You are always griping about rich landowners posting sections of the West Branch.
There is not one inch of the West Branch that cannot be fished legally, with a little effort.
Access the river legally from a bunch of access sites, then walk.
Lazy ass whiner !!!!!!!!
 
Allan,
The New York State General Obligations law protects landowners from lawsuits just like the one mentioned above. If anyone is interested in reading it the section is 9-103. Basically it states that a landowner can not be sued where someone is injured while recreating on the property, such as fishing , hunting , snowmobiling etc. People still try to sue but the cases get dismissed.
That may be true, but as I understand it, in order to get the case dismissed, you have to (at least) show up in court and defend yourself. If you don't know the law, you may need to hire (and pay) a lawyer.

I'm not in favor of indiscriminately posted lands, but from the landowners point of view, it may seem like a lot less of a hassle, and a lot less costly to invest in a few signs.
 
Pete,

I totally agree. The landowner is certainly bothered by any lawsuit like this and that is why I wrote in a previous post,

"I can't understand why the courts or legislature can't establish a 'traveler beware' law so that these ridiculous and frivilous lawsuits are thrown out of court. Or, if found innocent, the landowner should be repaid the cost of defending himself as well as punitive damages."

This way there might be less lawsuits even attempted, the landowner can get compensated for being forced to defend himself and the person filing the frivilous suit will be fined accordingly. OR, how about holding the lawyers liable for the punitive damages because they filed a lawsuit they knew, or had reason to know, was frivilous?

Allan
 
You're right, Pete. You usually need a good lawyer to get the case dismissed pursuant to the Statute. That's just the way it is and yes, it is aggravating and can cost some money. Some of the costs can be recovered in the case of a dismissal. If you have an insurance policy then the insurance company assigns a lawyer pursuant to that policy and in that case there is no monetary cost to you, just time and aggravation. Posted signs, if effective, will keep people off the property but if someone trespasses and gets hurt, they can still sue. The General Obligations Law should serve as a deterrant because a knowledgeable attorney will advise an injured party that their case will be dismissed under the law. This is a New York Law and I have no idea what Pennsylvania has on their books.
 
In the raw treatment of landowner stories.

My son's girl friend lives along along a good trout stream and has always kept it open to fishermen, as is the local tradition in the area. She had one fly fisherman complain about her playing with her dog in her own back yard (she kept it out of the water as not to spook the fish). He said it was distracting him and he got nasty about it too. Well in her anger she came real close to posting the property, but decided differently when she cooled down.
 
dont **** in peoples yards

hey, i live on the west branch, and if one more guide pulls his boat up behind my house so his client can relieve himself, they might leave with an extra asshole

its simple
locals dont want tourists and fishermen, whats all this i hear about economy, what economy?
fly fishing is not an economy, fly fishing is working for some hotel, restaraunt or dick resort owner, 6 months out of the year.
Also i think that most of the posted land is posted by people who own second homes, 10 or 15 years ago you could have gone almost anywhere with little or no trouble, now that half the homes are seasonal residents from larger cities they feel like they need to bring a little city with them and slap up 10 billion blaze orange posted signs
 
You raise a good point about the economy. That is why most locals will vote in favor of some factory while a huge outcry will come from all the tourists that frequent the area. Not because they don't love the streams and local environment - they do love their home area more than outsiders can imagine (that's why they stay in economically depressed rural areas - something the tourists have not done). However, a steady job with good pay is a powerful draw in most areas of the country. The service jobs in the tourism industry don't quite cut it in my experience.
 
Re: Hancock herald Letter to Editor - fallout because of a "threatened Lawsuit"

You raise a good point about the economy. That is why most locals will vote in favor of some factory while a huge outcry will come from all the tourists that frequent the area. Not because they don't love the streams and local environment - they do love their home area more than outsiders can imagine (that's why they stay in economically depressed rural areas - something the tourists have not done). However, a steady job with good pay is a powerful draw in most areas of the country. The service jobs in the tourism industry don't quite cut it in my experience.

Nicely said.
 
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