Catskill Mountain Man
Explore, and implore to explore
you didnt end your quote.
You are truly "touched"
How many rocks did they throw at your head?
Give us a try!
Welcome back to the new NEFF. Take a break from Twitter and Facebook. You don't go to Dicks for your fly fishing gear, you go to your local fly fishing store. Enjoy!
For the anti gun Hollywood crowd
- Thread starter CTobias
- Start date
you didnt end your quote.
You are truly "touched"
How many rocks did they throw at your head?
Trouser Trout
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Uhhhhh.....no...... My point is, you take issue with everyone who makes a pro gun post on this thread, you pereive there to be some sort of a problem with guns but have yet to offer any solution of your own. Reality is, you don't have a plan.
CTobias
Professional BS'r
Here's something to get some of you thinking. It was brought to my attention today, I haven't hade time to check much of it out, but it really wouldn't surprise me.
Just do some research on instances in American history such as the Gulf of Tonkin, the attack on the USS Liberty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_b9hh2lp3I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QVKu4_JxcE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KDZQ10c8O4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZPS7AdgNgE
Just do some research on instances in American history such as the Gulf of Tonkin, the attack on the USS Liberty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_b9hh2lp3I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QVKu4_JxcE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KDZQ10c8O4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZPS7AdgNgE
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Amending the constitution is not akin to having "wiggle room" it's a pretty serious process that is the only legal way to change the document. It's not to be taken lightly nor should it betaken lightly.rusty said in an earlier post that it's a living document. It's not. It's the foundation for our way of life. Im sure he probably
Meant it differently but to many folks there is a notion that the constitution can be reinterpreted, modified, or just out right ignored. Since its inception the constitution has been under constant attack from the left and the right. There is only one legal and moral way to change the constitution and unfortunately for our country we lack the integrity to do things the right way.
Meant it differently but to many folks there is a notion that the constitution can be reinterpreted, modified, or just out right ignored. Since its inception the constitution has been under constant attack from the left and the right. There is only one legal and moral way to change the constitution and unfortunately for our country we lack the integrity to do things the right way.
I most certainly will not label you, as I hope you wouldn't label me over my views...the Constitution means a great deal, but there is wiggle room. It can be amended by a 3/4 majority....I do believe it was written this way for a purpose, and let's remember to keep an open mind....beliefs are strong, and not being a gun owner, my beliefs are probably not as strong as yours.....There are many reasons I do not own a gun, and none of them have to do with me being against them(if you want to know why PM me), but the Constitution was written by very smart men, who left wiggle room because they knew the world evolves, and things will change. We are not under immenent threat of invasion from Great Britain or any other country right now. We are the world power. I have not made up my mind in the debate, and encourage dialogue and information to help my decision. I can tell you that at this time, I see no need for assault weapons in the hands of civilians. If the country was under imminent threat, or danger from an outside entity, I would encourage getting assault weapons in the hands of civilians. But please keep debating, you may change my mind............and trust me, anything that happens on this forum, will not keep me up at night either.....and if tyranny raises its ugly head in my life time, I will be right by your side.....throwing rocks and sticks, unless you let me use one of your guns.........
trico mike
make mine wild
I agree with Mac about the constitution being a foundation for our society. Law makers pass laws which are supposed to be within the foundation of the constitution.The problem is the interperatation of the constitution.Some state you can carry side arms others(nj for instance) you can't. Laws are passed all the time that seem to go against the constitution the patriot act is a good example.Thats why we have the supreme court to decide these things.There are some easy solutions to gun crimes that would not infringe on peoples rights but neither side wants to have a serious disscusion about them.It always turns into politics and reelections in this country and nothing ever gets done.
Pete
Trout Hunter
Reposted (slightly modified), from another forum where the resident liberal, thought guns could be kept out of the hands of criminals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In a free society, you can't eliminate crime. The best you can hope for, is to discourage it.
In an oppressive society, you'll have even less desirable results....
During the Nazi occupation, underground shops in Norway, Denmark, and Poland, (possibly others) supplied freedom fighters with fully automatic weapons based upon the British Sten. Advanced technology or "Magic" was not required, just some decent machine shops.
More recently, Russia is having a similar problem with the Chechens.
Chechen Self-Made Weapons | English Russia
If (or when) technology catches up, projects like this, may make firearms down-loadable.
WikiWep DevBlog.
They're working with plastics, but if the price of direct metal laser sintering equipment ever comes down....
Again, no magic involved. (compare the price of a 1960s computer to modern computer prices).
Firearms aren't magic, as a matter of fact, they're a rather old technology.
The genie is out of the bottle.
Crime is as old as our species. So far, no one has figured out how to eliminate it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I wasn't comparing the US to the Nazi occupation nor Soviet/Russia. Just some examples of what happens when people want firearms, and can't get them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In a free society, you can't eliminate crime. The best you can hope for, is to discourage it.
In an oppressive society, you'll have even less desirable results....
During the Nazi occupation, underground shops in Norway, Denmark, and Poland, (possibly others) supplied freedom fighters with fully automatic weapons based upon the British Sten. Advanced technology or "Magic" was not required, just some decent machine shops.
More recently, Russia is having a similar problem with the Chechens.
Chechen Self-Made Weapons | English Russia
If (or when) technology catches up, projects like this, may make firearms down-loadable.
WikiWep DevBlog.
They're working with plastics, but if the price of direct metal laser sintering equipment ever comes down....
Again, no magic involved. (compare the price of a 1960s computer to modern computer prices).
Firearms aren't magic, as a matter of fact, they're a rather old technology.
The genie is out of the bottle.
Crime is as old as our species. So far, no one has figured out how to eliminate it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I wasn't comparing the US to the Nazi occupation nor Soviet/Russia. Just some examples of what happens when people want firearms, and can't get them.
Last edited:
Rusty Spinner
Active member
I most certainly will not label you, as I hope you wouldn't label me over my views...the Constitution means a great deal, but there is wiggle room. It can be amended by a 3/4 majority....I do believe it was written this way for a purpose, and let's remember to keep an open mind....beliefs are strong, and not being a gun owner, my beliefs are probably not as strong as yours.....There are many reasons I do not own a gun, and none of them have to do with me being against them(if you want to know why PM me), but the Constitution was written by very smart men, who left wiggle room because they knew the world evolves, and things will change. We are not under immenent threat of invasion from Great Britain or any other country right now. We are the world power. I have not made up my mind in the debate, and encourage dialogue and information to help my decision. I can tell you that at this time, I see no need for assault weapons in the hands of civilians. If the country was under imminent threat, or danger from an outside entity, I would encourage getting assault weapons in the hands of civilians. But please keep debating, you may change my mind............and trust me, anything that happens on this forum, will not keep me up at night either.....and if tyranny raises its ugly head in my life time, I will be right by your side.....throwing rocks and sticks, unless you let me use one of your guns.........
A well thought out argument and while we agree that our nation is not under the threat of imminent attack from a foreign invader, what if circumstances were to change and we feared the tyranny of our own government? You'd have us give up "assault weapons" as an offer to end some of these senseless murders. At that point where we would need weapons such as ARs/assault weapons (any weapon is capable of assault, BTW) and they are now banned, do you see any way the same government that banned them would suddenly allow their manufacture and sale? So there you would be with your 3 or 4 shot bolt-action rifle or pump shotgun against someone with a semi or full auto that holds 30 or more rounds. In the time of the writing of our Constitution, the modern weapons of the day were more or less the same between citizen gun owners and the armed military of the British soldiers - single shot muzzle loading rifles and pistols.
Of course, I remain a solid optimist and believe that our armed forces would not turn on our own people but would join any revolt and take up arms against a tyrannical government if it ever came to that. Let's pray that never happens, but it has time and again in human history, and it's happened on our own soil, albeit well over 200 years ago now.
You also have to understand the motivations of the anti gun crowd. First they take so-called assault weapons, then the take more weapons and then they go after all guns. In liberal/progressive ideology, the government provides all needs and holds all the power. Guns in the hands of its citizens don't play well into that model. Again, there is deep history in this area and well within the past 100 years.
lightenup
A fan of Boobery
Mike, I agree, and Mac I agree...Changing The Constitution should not be taken lightly at all, and neither should a discussion about deadly weapons....the fact remains that it can be changed, and that was written into it for a reason. Never did I suggest it should be taken lightly, and apologize if I came across that way. With the evolution of our nation and all that comes with that, discussion has to take place. I agree with Trico Mike about the ability of our politicians to have mature and responsible discussions. They live their lives and make knee jerk decisions based on re-election. It really is a shame. I also believe that The Constitution is a "living" document, that is why, when most agree it can be amended. It is a living document and hopefully will continue to live well in to the future. Now should the second amendment be amended? Some say no, some say yes..I say, I don't know. Do I trust the government enough to defend us from foreign invaders..Yes, do I trust the government enough to keep the American way of life viable?...No
Rusty I just read your post....I would also hope the armed forces would protect the people, and if they don't..I don't see a Militia of civilians with AR-15's defeating the largest and most capable military force in the world...I do know my history and understand it has happened. But with the state of the fat, lazy American public (not all of us) right now I don't see that happening......
Rusty I just read your post....I would also hope the armed forces would protect the people, and if they don't..I don't see a Militia of civilians with AR-15's defeating the largest and most capable military force in the world...I do know my history and understand it has happened. But with the state of the fat, lazy American public (not all of us) right now I don't see that happening......
lightenup
A fan of Boobery
OHHH boy..you got me...a typo..shit I am so embarrassed
Rusty Spinner
Active member
If our government became so tyrannical that armed citizens decided to overthrow it, I can't see the majority of our soldiers standing with the government like we see in China, N. Korea or other nations along those lines. By the Constitution being a "living document", I agree. I don't mean it can be liberally interpreted the way some would want it and to the extent we've seen it lately, I mean it can and has been changed only after a very high bar has been passed (2/3 ratification). As for "fat" citizens overthrowing a tyrannical government, that's body armor
CTobias
Professional BS'r
Let us get one thing straight for a quick second.
The constitution is not a living breathing document and the second amendment has already been upheld as recent as last year in the Supreme Court. So I don't see what needs to be changed at all. Most politicians pretty much wipe their ass with the constitution and don't even think of it when creating laws. The unconstitutional patriot act and NDAA come to mind.
The last time the constitution was amended was in 1992 and was the 27th amendment which related to congressional pay.
Also, during the revolutionary war only 3% fought against the British! Only 10% actively supported those 3%. Three percent of the country fought to secure the sanctity, liberty, and freedoms for the rest of the country.
Most recently just one-half of 1 percent of Americans served in uniform at any given time during the past decade -- the longest period of sustained conflict in the country’s history --. Meanwhile, as the military shrinks in size, the connections between military members and the broader civilian population “appear to be growing more distant”.
http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=66253
So, if there ever was a need to take back our country, the majority of the people in this country would be sitting it out on the sidelines. Especially if they didn't own a single fire arm.
The sad truth is this country has been under attack from within long before I was born. Progressive programs have slowly been implemented over time to transform America from what it was to what they want it to become. From the creation of the Federal Reserve to joining the UN (just take a look at resolution 21, it's scary http://www.newswithviews.com/Marquardt/kathleen103.htm), our country has been under attack. Most people are asleep at the wheel and care more about their reality tv shows, iPhones, what their friends post on FB, and other non sense to be concerned with the state this country is in.
Try as people may, there will never be any law that can be created to curb violence (especially more gun laws, they work great in Chicago and DC). What we need to do is stop shoving pills down kids throats to try and fix every little "problem" they have and to stop letting the tv, Internet, and Xbox, raise kids.
Maybe if parents weren't afraid to discipline their kids and took them fishing/hunting more, there would be a lot less problems in this country since parents would be closer connected to their kids and be able to sense when something was not right.
The constitution is not a living breathing document and the second amendment has already been upheld as recent as last year in the Supreme Court. So I don't see what needs to be changed at all. Most politicians pretty much wipe their ass with the constitution and don't even think of it when creating laws. The unconstitutional patriot act and NDAA come to mind.
The last time the constitution was amended was in 1992 and was the 27th amendment which related to congressional pay.
Also, during the revolutionary war only 3% fought against the British! Only 10% actively supported those 3%. Three percent of the country fought to secure the sanctity, liberty, and freedoms for the rest of the country.
Most recently just one-half of 1 percent of Americans served in uniform at any given time during the past decade -- the longest period of sustained conflict in the country’s history --. Meanwhile, as the military shrinks in size, the connections between military members and the broader civilian population “appear to be growing more distant”.
http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=66253
So, if there ever was a need to take back our country, the majority of the people in this country would be sitting it out on the sidelines. Especially if they didn't own a single fire arm.
The sad truth is this country has been under attack from within long before I was born. Progressive programs have slowly been implemented over time to transform America from what it was to what they want it to become. From the creation of the Federal Reserve to joining the UN (just take a look at resolution 21, it's scary http://www.newswithviews.com/Marquardt/kathleen103.htm), our country has been under attack. Most people are asleep at the wheel and care more about their reality tv shows, iPhones, what their friends post on FB, and other non sense to be concerned with the state this country is in.
Try as people may, there will never be any law that can be created to curb violence (especially more gun laws, they work great in Chicago and DC). What we need to do is stop shoving pills down kids throats to try and fix every little "problem" they have and to stop letting the tv, Internet, and Xbox, raise kids.
Maybe if parents weren't afraid to discipline their kids and took them fishing/hunting more, there would be a lot less problems in this country since parents would be closer connected to their kids and be able to sense when something was not right.
lightenup
A fan of Boobery
If our government became so tyrannical that armed citizens decided to overthrow it, I can't see the majority of our soldiers standing with the government like we see in China, N. Korea or other nations along those lines. By the Constitution being a "living document", I agree. I don't mean it can be liberally interpreted the way some would want it and to the extent we've seen it lately, I mean it can and has been changed only after a very high bar has been passed (2/3 ratification). As for "fat" citizens overthrowing a tyrannical government, that's body armor
I meant the fat part, mostly as fat on the brain...lazy or non-existent thinkers....sheep led by the media and party lines and the such.....
Have a good day....
Rusty Spinner
Active member
I meant the fat part, mostly as fat on the brain...lazy or non-existent thinkers....sheep led by the media and party lines and the such.....
We'll call those folks "fodder" and place them along the front lines when the next revolution breaks out:guns:
CTobias
Professional BS'r
It's here!!
Welcome to the Communist state of NY.
http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/S1422-2013
Welcome to the Communist state of NY.
http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/S1422-2013
LyNcH
Dries, wets, nymphs and streamers...it's all good!
Well that's good news. Now that they are suggesting pre-ban hi-cap magazines be illegal to use on pre-ban guns, or face a higher level felony charge, the violence will stop.
Problem solved, no more killing. Since evil does not exist, man has solved mans problem.
streamfisher
Northeast
I do not believe this solves the problem. I've been saying that all along. But I can tell you this, that you have not been hearing me. While I search for solutions and you mock the circumstances - you leave an absence of other ideas. In the absences of other ideas, I will be voting for this ban and any other that is put in front of me. Because I'm not a gun freak and I could care less how it effects you. Welcome to the perspect of the majoraty that you refuse to talk to.
LyNcH
Dries, wets, nymphs and streamers...it's all good!
Talking to you is like clapping with one hand.
You don't think the legislation will solve the problem, yet you still support it? It doesn't matter what new laws are passed, criminals, don't follow the laws! I'm sure you thing Obamaphones were a good idea too. I can fill you in some other time as to how they are really being used. Here's a hint - drugs, gang and illegal gun activity and prostitution. Government funded crime.
Throughout our dialog, you have made several generic comments regarding this situation. My responses to your comments have all been relevant and based on the reality of the situation, specifically regarding your mental health concerns and how those who use guns illegally think and chose to act, or in simple terms, human behavior, of which you can only control your own. It appears to fall on your deaf ears/eyes. You don't seem to want to acknowledge this and won't even respond to a single item of validity to my posts. This isn't about being or not being a gun freak. Stop painting with your broad brushes
I'm done trying to clap with you. You are not willing to truly have the discussion you were begging for a few days ago. See you on the water!
FYI - you won't have the option to vote on this.
You don't think the legislation will solve the problem, yet you still support it? It doesn't matter what new laws are passed, criminals, don't follow the laws! I'm sure you thing Obamaphones were a good idea too. I can fill you in some other time as to how they are really being used. Here's a hint - drugs, gang and illegal gun activity and prostitution. Government funded crime.
Throughout our dialog, you have made several generic comments regarding this situation. My responses to your comments have all been relevant and based on the reality of the situation, specifically regarding your mental health concerns and how those who use guns illegally think and chose to act, or in simple terms, human behavior, of which you can only control your own. It appears to fall on your deaf ears/eyes. You don't seem to want to acknowledge this and won't even respond to a single item of validity to my posts. This isn't about being or not being a gun freak. Stop painting with your broad brushes
I'm done trying to clap with you. You are not willing to truly have the discussion you were begging for a few days ago. See you on the water!
FYI - you won't have the option to vote on this.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Streamfisher you made a statement above that his will not solve the problem yet you support it. This really makes no sense to me. I would think you would recognize the reaction from folks on this site for what it is which is a response to what we saw immediately after the shooting. The national conversation is on limiting weapons not on mental healthcare or safer schools or anything else. I think your desire to talk about these other topics is laudable however governement ate very level along with most of the media and anti gun groups are focused on Legislation that would reduce or eliminate certain weapons. You may not care or feel its appropriate for folks to own assault weapons. I don't see how you can expect folks to take you seriously if that is your feeling. Maybe I missed something in the thread but attitude from folks on this site is that law abiding citizens will be penalized for the acts of a few evil people and that is not solving a problem or dealing with an issue in an open and thoughtful manner.
LyNcH
Dries, wets, nymphs and streamers...it's all good!
You used the word evil, making your post irrelevant, as evil acts do not exist. Now, anything else you say is just hogwash now matter how logical it may be. Good job.
streamfisher
Northeast
Lynch,
I'll be glad to share water with you. It had been my feeling that you do not believe anything can be done because "evil is evil". I didn't feel that this was a position were negotiable. Your comments have been to discredit my comments instead of bringing new thoughts in. I'm fine settling with an impass and would still share water and a beer. That being said, what I'm trying to say about my current position on this matter is that I'm not an anti-gun or pro-gun person. Therefore, objectively speaking, Im not as concerned about the pro-gun plight. So, whether a new gun law helps or not - I don't really care, But, I can't sit here and do nothing with these events occuring with greater frequency and lethality.
streamfisher
Northeast
Only talking about these things with like minded people is part of the problem. I'm putting myself out there and even though no one here respects it. Even if you think I'm an idiot, I'm out there being open and thoughtful. You may not be seeing that on the national stage, but your seeing it here on this forum, and I am not.
Trouser Trout
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
You really haven't put out a thoughtful post yet on the topic, saying you are thoughtful means nothing, for the 5th time...What is your solution?
Rusty Spinner
Active member
That statement right there shows the difference between your liberal ideology and that of moderates and conservatives. You think only emotionally and not rationally. You cannot wrap your mind around the fact that evil exists and no number of laws can prevent evil from raising its ugly head. So because you cannot find a rational law that can end gun violence (or knife violence, or bomb violence, etc.), you feel a knee-jerk emotional need to pass something to make you feel better emotionally even though the rational side of your brain knows full well it won't end this type of violent behavior.
On top of that, those of us that are moderate or conservative in our thought don't agree with your emotional responses, hence we "offer nothing" and "are part of the problem". This is what is wrong with our once great nation, the slide to the left and letting emotions rather than facts run our decision making. That is not meant as a personal attack, it is a simple fact of the failed ideology of liberal progressive thought. Base decisions on fact and not emotions and we'll all be better off...
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
I dont think you are an idiot but you are using phrases like gun nuts and folks waiting for Armageddon. Good for you that you want to have a broader discussion but you don't seem to appreciate why folks are coming fom the position that more restrictive weapons legislation is not an answer. That's what some people believe. Maybe they are wrong maybe not but you can't separate the national discussion which is overwhelmingly about restricting weapons and the one you are trying to have here. It doesn't work that way. People react to what they know and see on the boob tube. Again how would restricting the rights of 99.999 percent of a group solve an issue for the .001 percent.
streamfisher
Northeast
Rusty, this is just a typical generalized republican talking point and you are labelling me. It's insulting and divisive and represents the problem of inaction. You can't wrap your mind around the fact that what you call emotional responses is people who think differently than you and therefore "are part of the problem". I could quote typical left talking points too and claim that conservatives are stubborm and ignorant but that is not how I feel. (yes, feel- God forbid). If you read every single word I wrote, you'll better notice I never said you were part of the problem but clearly you are saying I am. And as I said before, this inability to discuss - particularly because you don't respect other opinons, puts us at an impass since you are unable or unwilling to "offer anything" to opposing thinkers. We all complain about this in how our politics are today. I do not believe your ideology is a failed one. I believe that there is a symbiosis in differing ideologies and I believe that is what this country was founded on.
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
I think we should outlaw mental illness. Put 'em in nice institutions.
streamfisher
Northeast
Just like Norway. Brevik's last complaint was that he couldn't possess the remote control of his flat screen tv. Kill 70 people and they take your remote away.. well that threat works on my kids anyway. Maybe when he gets out in 20 he'll think twice about doing it again?
lightenup
A fan of Boobery
Well that is broad statement....
Then you wouldn't be able to post here, or are they allowing internet access now!
How are the Alpacas and my sweater, and how was your farm show.....I missed it.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
See, another disagreement. Conservatism is based in fact while liberalism is based on emotion. Of course my ideology is not a failed one, it has led to more than 230 years of creating the greatest nation on earth; the very beacon of hope and democracy the world over. Your ideology has worked in the following nations.....
There is no finding a middle ground with liberal progressives. It is solely because your ideology is flawed. Moderates and conservatives can often find common ground, but the left just can't get there. Look no further than how the stimulus bill, the Obamacare bill and our growing debt have been shoved down the throats of those that stand against it. No discussions, no middle ground, just a my-way-or-the-highway approach to governance by the left. The very thing you are accusing me of right now. You say that I don't respect the opinions of others, yet you state on one hand that guns are not the issue and on the other that you "would vote for gun bans" (as if you were in Congress and had a vote). How can anyone reason with that failed logic? You and I have danced this dance over and over on GST. You're a leftist and I'm a conservative. We aren't about to sway each others' thinking on virtually any topic. And you're not getting any here on NEFF on your side either.
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
But what's his stance on ( I mean how does he FEEL about) Smallies in the Susquehanna?
(A gay smiley for ya)
