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For the anti gun Hollywood crowd

I didn't misunderstand mike. I just think you underestimate the power of armed citizens. Let's hope we never have to find out.

trico mike said:
Mac, I think you misunderstood me.I dont think we should disarm, just the opposite.My statement about making all states open carry was pretty clear. If the gov feels a threat they will stop it and there is nothing we can do i.e. waco. We already live under a oppresive regime just look at how much money the gov takes from us not just incme tax but proprtey, sales tax ect ect, but as long as we ar able to buy the latest greatest gizmo from overseas made for pennies on the dollar and big corp are getting rich off of are blood sweat and tears are guess we are all happy.
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Rusty Spinner said:
Just a note for those that remain confused on the 2nd Amendment: there is in no way a limit stated such as "the right to own muzzle loading smooth bore rifles", it is: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The Founding Fathers were careful to ensure the Constitution would remain a viable, living document well into the future. And they were crystal clear in their debates that only an armed citizenry could prevent the tyranny that our country faced in light of British rule at the time. The 2nd Amendment is not to protect hunters and those that like to target shoot, it is to prevent tyranny and to protect our soil from foreign invaders. If that tyranny rises its ugly head in my lifetime to a point where I feel the need to defend my God given liberties, guaranteed by our Constitution and the Bill of Rights, then I'll go down fighting that tyranny and it's really none of your business what weapon I do it with.

So if you think there is wiggle room for someone like myself to allow further weapons or capacity bans, you'd be wrong. I actually believe that the words of our Constitution mean something. In the meantime, if you feel you need to label me, so be it. I won't lose a wink of sleep over what someone thinks about my political views or my interpretation of our Constitution.
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Good for you. Whatever floats your boat. So, any ideas on how to prevent mass killings?

My idea of liberty is not that I'm allowed to carry a gun, which would be fine, but that I can walk down the street without having to carry one. I aspire to make my government (of the people) a better one. I don't bide my time waiting for armageddon. But, fine. If that works for you and gets you through your day. Trust me though, the world will move one while your standing still cyclng your MREs in your five year bunker. So, again, any ideas on how to prevent mass killings or are your guns and yourself all you care about? If so, that's fine too - but have the balls to say it.
 
MACFLY said:
Don't know and hope we never find out. I suspect it would depend on the circumstances at the time
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What were the 'circumstances' throughout history that you referred to where the gov pulled a willy on the people? I would imagine that those type of 'circumstances' would take many decades to manifest. Did your historical references have any clue as to which way things were gonna go with military and local enforcement. Have we yet learned anything from history about how to identify the circumstances when they're developing or do we just buy guns and sit in our bunkers waiting for the whistles to blow?

I would think this is important
 
My reference to these events was just a historical reference. I am not waiting in a bunker and i don't own a weapon. The events in the case of the nazis disarming the Jews should be pretty obvious. Similarly with Mao. It's a lot easier to slaughter folks when they can't shoot back..don't you think.

streamfisher said:
What were the 'circumstances' throughout history that you referred to where the gov pulled a willy on the people? I would imagine that those type of 'circumstances' would take many decades to manifest. Did your historical references have any clue as to which way things were gonna go with military and local enforcement. Have we yet learned anything from history about how to identify the circumstances when they're developing or do we just buy guns and sit in our bunkers waiting for the whistles to blow?

I would think this is important
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streamfisher said:
Good for you. Whatever floats your boat. So, any ideas on how to prevent mass killings?

My idea of liberty is not that I'm allowed to carry a gun, which would be fine, but that I can walk down the street without having to carry one. I aspire to make my government (of the people) a better one. I don't bide my time waiting for armageddon. But, fine. If that works for you and gets you through your day. Trust me though, the world will move one while your standing still cyclng your MREs in your five year bunker. So, again, any ideas on how to prevent mass killings or are your guns and yourself all you care about? If so, that's fine too - but have the balls to say it.
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Prevent mass killings or reduce them? No way we can prevent them and there's very limited things we can do to limit them. Would it surprise you to learn that mass homicides peaked in the US in 1929? I know it surprised me to learn. We can do more with our mental health system which we have largely dismantled in favor of medications over incarceration of the severely mentally ill. We can strengthen punishment further for crimes committed by guns or other deadly weapons, but we can never truly stop these kinds of mass killings. Liberals like yourself always want to believe otherwise and that's your right, but history is never on your side.

As far as your trying to bait me by saying I live in fear or in some bunker, you're really not smart enough to engage me. Haven't been on GST and still aren't with your change of venue to NEFF. If you have something useful to say, say it. You liberals are so predictable - bait all those that don't agree with you, tell them they offer nothing, and then do the exact same thing you accuse others of which is to offer nothing. :rofl:
 
MACFLY said:
My reference to these events was just a historical reference. I am not waiting in a bunker and i don't own a weapon. The events in the case of the nazis disarming the Jews should be pretty obvious. Similarly with Mao. It's a lot easier to slaughter folks when they can't shoot back..don't you think.
Click to expand...

What did the German people miss? When in that historical event would have been the right time for the people to rise?
 
Rusty Spinner said:
Just a note for those that remain confused on the 2nd Amendment: there is in no way a limit stated such as "the right to own muzzle loading smooth bore rifles", it is: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The Founding Fathers were careful to ensure the Constitution would remain a viable, living document well into the future. And they were crystal clear in their debates that only an armed citizenry could prevent the tyranny that our country faced in light of British rule at the time. The 2nd Amendment is not to protect hunters and those that like to target shoot, it is to prevent tyranny and to protect our soil from foreign invaders. If that tyranny rises its ugly head in my lifetime to a point where I feel the need to defend my God given liberties, guaranteed by our Constitution and the Bill of Rights, then I'll go down fighting that tyranny and it's really none of your business what weapon I do it with.

So if you think there is wiggle room for someone like myself to allow further weapons or capacity bans, you'd be wrong. I actually believe that the words of our Constitution mean something. In the meantime, if you feel you need to label me, so be it. I won't lose a wink of sleep over what someone thinks about my political views or my interpretation of our Constitution.
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Right wing gun nut!!!
 
streamfisher said:
You seem to be spending more of your time trying to discredit my words instead of providing your own. You can't keep trying to vet me out especially if you won't do the same. I did not throw my experience out there and try to present myself as an authority, you did. And yet, you still have provided nothing constructive.

Not having empathy is a major contributor to immoral behavior at all levels. Please notice that, when I referenced the Newtown shooter I also suggested he had other issues. Not having empathy and feeling like everything in front of you is not real because you can't physically feel it are clearly heading down a dangerous path as well as a demonstrated history of violent behavior.

Yes, psychiatric residency. Voluntary and involuntary. Also, I do not have a good handle on gun laws but I know guys who own guns and are very confused about the current gun laws especially when, as I was told, the laws can be different between counties and that causes them anxiety about whether or not they are in the right or wrong after only driving a few miles.

If you think tagging people to the DSM is scary, you can't fully appreciate how scary the genetic work is that they will be doing.
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for the third time, what is YOUR plan????
 
Trouser Trout said:
for the third time, what is YOUR plan????
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My plan is to first get people talking and thinking about this. My framing, at the moment, is that 70% of the problem of mass killings is mental illness. 10% weapons mgmt review, 10% FCC regs review, 10% unknown.

When I say weapons mgmt review, I would include better public awareness campains. I don't think gross pictures on cigarette packs is the right model but something that could further the respect that weapons should have. Maybe one father can be saved from throwing his gun on the dashboard like it was his wallet and killing his kid in the backseat. (which happend just a few weeks ago)

When I say FCC, I'm talking about all media including hollywood. But keep in mind american film is tame compared to euroupe. We might have more special effects but they have 10 minute brutal rape scenes and Japan has pedophile fantasy vids.

When I say mental illness I'm talking medical and psychological

Both guns and mental illness have stigmas associated to them and they need to be put in the light so that they can be talked about.

As you can see, I do not believe that guns are the problem. I also do not believe they are the solution.
 
streamfisher said:
That would be my thought also. But, your web link suggests that uprising would also be against the local police:

"the Militia would put a stop to the present-day rampages of police brutality once and for all, in the most swift, sure, and severe manner possible;"

am I misunderstanding this statment?
Click to expand...

If the local police went against the constitution they swore to uphold and became jack boot thugs, then yes, you are interpreting it correctly.
 
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streamfisher said:
My plan is to first get people talking and thinking about this. My framing, at the moment, is that 70% of the problem of mass killings is mental illness. 10% weapons mgmt review, 10% FCC regs review, 10% unknown.

When I say weapons mgmt review, I would include better public awareness campains. I don't think gross pictures on cigarette packs is the right model but something that could further the respect that weapons should have. Maybe one father can be saved from throwing his gun on the dashboard like it was his wallet and killing his kid in the backseat. (which happend just a few weeks ago)

When I say FCC, I'm talking about all media including hollywood. But keep in mind american film is tame compared to euroupe. We might have more special effects but they have 10 minute brutal rape scenes and Japan has pedophile fantasy vids.

When I say mental illness I'm talking medical and psychological

Both guns and mental illness have stigmas associated to them and they need to be put in the light so that they can be talked about.

As you can see, I do not believe that guns are the problem. I also do not believe they are the solution.
Click to expand...

You obviously have no solution to offer. Thank you for playing.
 
streamfisher said:
What did the German people miss? When in that historical event would have been the right time for the people to rise?
Click to expand...

The Germans allowed themselves to be led by a madman. The Jewish people allowed their guns to be taken.
 
MACFLY said:
The Germans allowed themselves to be led by a madman. The Jewish people allowed their guns to be taken.
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That's all you got? You're the history buff who believes keeping guns in the closet is enough to stave off the next hitler? I got nothing wrong with guns. I got everything wrong with a guy that has guns and no plan. I take that back.. it's not wrong, it's just sad.
 
streamfisher said:
That's all you got? You're the history buff who believes keeping guns in the closet is enough to stave off the next hitler? I got nothing wrong with guns. I got everything wrong with a guy that has guns and no plan. I take that back.. it's not wrong, it's just sad.[/

I simply gave examples of what can occur when ordinary citizens are disarmed. You seem to be eager to make this confrontational for some reason. I also stated that an armed citizenry can stave off a hostile and tyrannical government even one with superior armament. This is pretty basic stuff so not sure where you are struggling with this.
Click to expand...
 
MACFLY said:
streamfisher said:
That's all you got? You're the history buff who believes keeping guns in the closet is enough to stave off the next hitler? I got nothing wrong with guns. I got everything wrong with a guy that has guns and no plan. I take that back.. it's not wrong, it's just sad.[/

I simply gave examples of what can occur when ordinary citizens are disarmed. You seem to be eager to make this confrontational for some reason. I also stated that an armed citizenry can stave off a hostile and tyrannical government even one with superior armament. This is pretty basic stuff so not sure where you are struggling with this.
Click to expand...

You're right. I'm throwing uneeded jabs because I seem alone in my position on this forum. My point with what you (generally speaking) said is that you can't identify guns as a cause in that context and not call it the cause in others. Remember, 'guns don't kill people stuff...' Mind you, I don't believe they are the cause in either situation. You must know all cause/effect. You need to identify the ingredients and recipes to be successful. I think in one of your posts you did suggest that it was just part of the cause, but just like our current circumstances, we don't ever discuss the other parts. The parts that really significantly matter.
Click to expand...
 
Of course but my post was really to address something trico mike said. It was not directed at you. I used a historical example only to illustrate my point. As I said I don't own a weapon and I'm not waiting on Armaggedon.

streamfisher said:
MACFLY said:
You're right. I'm throwing uneeded jabs because I seem alone in my position on this forum. My point with what you (generally speaking) said is that you can't identify guns as a cause in that context and not call it the cause in others. Remember, 'guns don't kill people stuff...' Mind you, I don't believe they are the cause in either situation. You must know all cause/effect. You need to identify the ingredients and recipes to be successful. I think in one of your posts you did suggest that it was just part of the cause, but just like our current circumstances, we don't ever discuss the other parts. The parts that really significantly matter.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
McRiffle said:
I'd feel better too, which surprised me since in general I don't believe guns are the problem. What other example do you mean?
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Just that there are plentyof example of folks who seek to limit or reduce gun ownership yet employ armed guards, bodyguards, etc.. For their own protection.
 
Rusty Spinner said:
Just a note for those that remain confused on the 2nd Amendment: there is in no way a limit stated such as "the right to own muzzle loading smooth bore rifles", it is: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The Founding Fathers were careful to ensure the Constitution would remain a viable, living document well into the future. And they were crystal clear in their debates that only an armed citizenry could prevent the tyranny that our country faced in light of British rule at the time. The 2nd Amendment is not to protect hunters and those that like to target shoot, it is to prevent tyranny and to protect our soil from foreign invaders. If that tyranny rises its ugly head in my lifetime to a point where I feel the need to defend my God given liberties, guaranteed by our Constitution and the Bill of Rights, then I'll go down fighting that tyranny and it's really none of your business what weapon I do it with.

So if you think there is wiggle room for someone like myself to allow further weapons or capacity bans, you'd be wrong. I actually believe that the words of our Constitution mean something. In the meantime, if you feel you need to label me, so be it. I won't lose a wink of sleep over what someone thinks about my political views or my interpretation of our Constitution.
Click to expand...

I most certainly will not label you, as I hope you wouldn't label me over my views...the Constitution means a great deal, but there is wiggle room. It can be amended by a 3/4 majority....I do believe it was written this way for a purpose, and let's remember to keep an open mind....beliefs are strong, and not being a gun owner, my beliefs are probably not as strong as yours.....There are many reasons I do not own a gun, and none of them have to do with me being against them(if you want to know why PM me), but the Constitution was written by very smart men, who left wiggle room because they knew the world evolves, and things will change. We are not under immenent threat of invasion from Great Britain or any other country right now. We are the world power. I have not made up my mind in the debate, and encourage dialogue and information to help my decision. I can tell you that at this time, I see no need for assault weapons in the hands of civilians. If the country was under imminent threat, or danger from an outside entity, I would encourage getting assault weapons in the hands of civilians. But please keep debating, you may change my mind............and trust me, anything that happens on this forum, will not keep me up at night either.....and if tyranny raises its ugly head in my life time, I will be right by your side.....throwing rocks and sticks, unless you let me use one of your guns.........:)
 
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