FFMP: Why it works!

[Big_Spinner]

Hey guys,

Happy New Year Everyone!

Been busy selling real estate for awhile. Good stuff out there if you are interested.

Thought you would be interested in why FFMP is helping during these wet conditions.

There are two or three major improvements with the current version of FFMP.

1: When there is lots of water in the summer we get a 500 cfs MINIMUM release on the West Branch. This constant minimum keeps cool water down into the mainstem.

2: During all times of the year, and especially in the winter, the releases are constant and higher than any previous plan. Under previous plans this winter would be a disaster. The high flows would have filled the reservoirs and we would get huge spills. The reservoirs would then stop spilling and we would get a release of only 45 cfs fon Cannonsville and Pepacton. 10,000 cfs one week and 45 cfs the next. Now we get 700 to 1500 on the WB and we have had 700 on the EB.

3: When the releases are changing between levels there is a 3 day ramping taking place. This gradual ramping helps reduce the nasty "yo-yo" flows of the past.

It looks like the current version of FFMP will be approved for the next few years, hopefully with some modest improvements. Time is short and there is much work to be done!!!!

You amy want to try a quick WB trip this weekend. Fishing has been pretty good and the drop in release means you can wade a bit. Lots of midges and alewives!!

Hope to see you all at Somerset!!!!!!

Jim

 

[Future Fanatic]

Hey guys,

Happy New Year Everyone!

Been busy selling real estate for awhile. Good stuff out there if you are interested.

Jim

Hello Jim,
Good to see you poking around here again.

How deep IS the catalog of properties in the area and how are the prices?

Keep posting...

 

[brachycentrus]

Hey guys,

Happy New Year Everyone!

Been busy selling real estate for awhile. Good stuff out there if you are interested.

Thought you would be interested in why FFMP is helping during these wet conditions.

There are two or three major improvements with the current version of FFMP.

1: When there is lots of water in the summer we get a 500 cfs MINIMUM release on the West Branch. This constant minimum keeps cool water down into the mainstem.

2: During all times of the year, and especially in the winter, the releases are constant and higher than any previous plan. Under previous plans this winter would be a disaster. The high flows would have filled the reservoirs and we would get huge spills. The reservoirs would then stop spilling and we would get a release of only 45 cfs fon Cannonsville and Pepacton. 10,000 cfs one week and 45 cfs the next. Now we get 700 to 1500 on the WB and we have had 700 on the EB.

3: When the releases are changing between levels there is a 3 day ramping taking place. This gradual ramping helps reduce the nasty "yo-yo" flows of the past.

It looks like the current version of FFMP will be approved for the next few years, hopefully with some modest improvements. Time is short and there is much work to be done!!!!

You amy want to try a quick WB trip this weekend. Fishing has been pretty good and the drop in release means you can wade a bit. Lots of midges and alewives!!

Hope to see you all at Somerset!!!!!!

Jim

Hey Jim,
Happy New Year.
Do you know if NYDEP requires FERC approval for the proposed hydro generators on Cannonsville, Pepacton and the Neversink ?

 

[MACFLY]

Do you have anything with a large amount of marcellus Shale underneath it. Preferably next to future fanatic

Hey guys,

Happy New Year Everyone!

Been busy selling real estate for awhile. Good stuff out there if you are interested.

Thought you would be interested in why FFMP is helping during these wet conditions.

There are two or three major improvements with the current version of FFMP.

1: When there is lots of water in the summer we get a 500 cfs MINIMUM release on the West Branch. This constant minimum keeps cool water down into the mainstem.

2: During all times of the year, and especially in the winter, the releases are constant and higher than any previous plan. Under previous plans this winter would be a disaster. The high flows would have filled the reservoirs and we would get huge spills. The reservoirs would then stop spilling and we would get a release of only 45 cfs fon Cannonsville and Pepacton. 10,000 cfs one week and 45 cfs the next. Now we get 700 to 1500 on the WB and we have had 700 on the EB.

3: When the releases are changing between levels there is a 3 day ramping taking place. This gradual ramping helps reduce the nasty "yo-yo" flows of the past.

It looks like the current version of FFMP will be approved for the next few years, hopefully with some modest improvements. Time is short and there is much work to be done!!!!

You amy want to try a quick WB trip this weekend. Fishing has been pretty good and the drop in release means you can wade a bit. Lots of midges and alewives!!

Hope to see you all at Somerset!!!!!!

Jim

 

[Big_Spinner]

Hi guys,

A quick update on the rivers.

The West Branch release from Cannonsvile has dropped to 250 cfs with the Hale Eddy gauge in the 500 to 600 range. 250 release compares favourably with old witner release of 45.

The East Branch is still at a maximum release of 700 cfs. Reservoir is still near full.
Old winter release of 45 cfs.

Neversink is also near full and has been spilling on and off throughout the winter.

I think that the higher minimum releases in the winter are a big benefit to the system.

Many people ask me; "Why not reduce the release on the EB to 200 now and save that water until summer?"

The problem is that you cannot store anymoree in a full reservoir, so it will just spill without any control.

Hope all is well,

Jim

 

[brachycentrus]

Hey Jim,
You never answered my question regarding the FERC application for the hydro generators on the 3 rivers.
I think that before any license is issued to those reservoirs to generate power, they should be dredged of all of the mud and crap at the bottom.
When I asked at the WWE event what the current capacity of Cannonsville was post flood, she managed to dodge the question but did admit that they can divert from any level and were currently pulling the better quality water from the top portal.
Just speculation on my part, but I would think that the total volume has been reduced as the reservoir has been filled in, hence all of the mud and crap coming out of the reservoir as early as May. It never used to happen until the reservoir hit roughly the 30% range, now it pumps mud and algae when it is 90% plus.
Couldnt they be forced to dredge that impoundment as a condition of FERC licensing. Wallenpaupak and Rio put conditions on their permits, thats why they get the whitewater releases on alternate weekends and Wallenpaupak trout get thermal releases which really mystifies me.

 

[Big_Spinner]

Hi Brachy,

I am not sure of the answer to your question. Here is a good place for you to start searching for the answer.

Search Results: hydroelectric

The guys at FUDR may know the answer to your question.

I certainly hope that there will some oversight that will allow for making the releases and rivers better. Keep in mind that the hydroelectric plan is going to generate only when releases are called for under FFMP or Directed. There will not be water released just to generate.

I do not believe that the cause of the dirty water is what is sitting on the bottom of the reservoir or that dredging would do any good.

The material that causes the river to discolor is found suspended at the thermocline. When the cold water is used up, the discoloration starts.

Do you have reports in your fishing records as to when the water discolored, the DEC and others have been asking guides for that information. I am quite sure it almost exactly corresponds to the release temperature increasing.

DEP can withdraw water for NYC use at different levels, but I do not think that releases to the river can come form different levels.

Hope to see you at Somerset, there may be some discussions on how to move forward there.

Jim

 

[brachycentrus]

Hi Brachy,

I am not sure of the answer to your question. Here is a good place for you to start searching for the answer.

Search Results: hydroelectric

The guys at FUDR may know the answer to your question.

I certainly hope that there will some oversight that will allow for making the releases and rivers better. Keep in mind that the hydroelectric plan is going to generate only when releases are called for under FFMP or Directed. There will not be water released just to generate.

I do not believe that the cause of the dirty water is what is sitting on the bottom of the reservoir or that dredging would do any good.

The material that causes the river to discolor is found suspended at the thermocline. When the cold water is used up, the discoloration starts.Do you have reports in your fishing records as to when the water discolored, the DEC and others have been asking guides for that information. I am quite sure it almost exactly corresponds to the release temperature increasing.

DEP can withdraw water for NYC use at different levels, but I do not think that releases to the river can come form different levels.

Hope to see you at Somerset, there may be some discussions on how to move forward there.

Jim

If the cause of the water is due to a changing thermoclime, then what is causing the thermoclime to drastically change every year.
It is not what it used to be and dumps crap much earlier and when the reservoir is way higher than it used to be.
I have nothing solid to back this up, just observation from me and others that something has drastically changed in that body of water. I think it is filled with mud from the flood and I get the suspicion that DEP believes so to, judging by their evasiveness when asked. You were there and they werent exactly forthcoming.

 

[Big_Spinner]

Hi Brachy,

Here is what is happening:

Reservoir at this time of year is about the same temperature from top to bottom (4 degrees centigrade) The water is not mixing and mostly clear top to bottom.

In the spring, run off comes in and the top of the reservoir warms. This warm water is lighter (less dense) than the water at the bottom.

A thermocline forms between the cold layer below and the warmer upper layer at the top. There is very little mixing through the summer between these layers.

Top layer is called the epilimnion and the bottom layer is the hypolimnion.

The epilimnion gets all the nutrient run off and all the sunlight, lots of things grow in it. This stuff settles to the BOTTOM OF THE EPILIMNION, not the botom of the reservoir. Remember, no mixing in the summer between levels.

As you observed previously, in a normal year, (not lots of rain and a need to release water to meet Montague.) the cold hypolimnion which comprises about 70% of a full reservoir gets used up. Later in the summer, when the reservoir is at about 30-40%, the warmer "dirty" water at the bottom of the epilimnion (jsut above the thermocline) starts to come out of the dam.

If you are with me so far, here is what I think has changed:

The spill mitigation releases that now occur under FFMP. Cannonsville has a 1500 cfs release when the reservoir is in danger of spilling. This was never done before. This high release uses up all the cold clear water in the hypolimnion and we start to see dirty water earlier in the year.

Now for a wet year:

The same type of thing is happening in the reservoir, but, like this past year the reservoir stayed full. The problem from a cold water perspective is that the cold water inventory was produced in the winter and spring and is of limited quantity. As you release this cold water it is either not replaced (a dry summer) or it is replaced with warmer runof water throught the summer. The reservoir is being refilled with warm water while the cold water is used up. Hence, your observation of discolored water when the reservoir is still well above 30% full.

This can be easily confirmed by looking at the USGS flow graphs from the past few summers. The dirty water starts to come out of the dams at about the same time that the temperature of the release water starts to rise. Look at the Stilesville Gauge for temperatures and release amounts, but be a bit careful, in the summer, a spill will be warm.

I am pretty confidant of the above "Serio Dirty Little Water Secret".

What follows is some other speculation on my part.

If this were simply a problem with dirty water and mud build up on the bottom, since this is a bottom release reservoir, you would expect to see the dirty water whenever there is a release. This is clearly (no pun intended, but I like it) not the case.

NYS DEC has taken samples to see exactly waht the "dirty" water consists of. My guess is some dissolved solids, but also lots of dead and growing algaes, diatoms etc. that have gotten caught in the area just above the thermocline. We shall see what they say.

I recall in the olden days, the West Branch was almost never as clear as the East Branch. I think this is because in a year that we did not flush out the "dirty" layer, it may have distributed itself throughout the water column during the winter and so we got a tinge of off color water through the summer. This is from my faulty memory banks and I would be interested to see if others agree.

Hope to see you at Somerset and we can talk about this at length. I will bring supporting documents with me.

Jim

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Jim,

Judging from what I know about stratified reservoir systems and in particular, Cannonsville, I think you nailed it. Certainly over time any dammed impoundment will fill with sediment, the rate of which is dictated by various upstream factors. Cannonsville is very large and the sediment that has filled into it since it was constructed would be relegated almost entirely to the upper (inflow) section of that water body and not anywhere near (yet) its bottom release outflow. Sometime in a couple hundred years, that will change, but not likely in our lifetimes given Cannonsville's shear size compared to the upper stretch of the WBD above that reservoir.

 

[Big_Spinner]

Hi Guys,

DEC has not gotten the results back from the sampling that they did through the summer this year.

They are also curious as to what exctly is growing in the "dirty" water.

I was asked to put out a call again to see if any of you (Brachy) have jotted down in your fishing logs when they detected discolored water on the West Branch over the last few years.

Seven more days till the show!!!!!

Jim