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Esopus Creek
- Thread starter golden beetle
- Start date
Rusty Spinner
Active member
No surprise, browns are the top predator of the trout world. Once they become established as wild fish, it's just a matter of time before the native trout or other wild trout introduced previously like the Esopus rainbows get overtaken in some way. Same thing is happening to our brookies here in NJ in so many streams.
Barleywine
Member
Thanks for posting that interesting article GB.
The Esopus was the first of the Catskill rivers that caught my attention years ago. My wife and I would often camp at Kenneth Wilson campgrounds in Woodstock, and I'd drive to the river and fish every run and pool that I could get access to. Really loved that water, and it helped that the season stretched all the way to November 30th (and it still does) when it was closing in October on most Catskill waters. I do remember catching more rainbows than browns in the early 90's, and most of the browns that I did catch were of the stocked variety.
Floods, exposed clay banks, and dirty water pouring out of the portal put me off that river. I last fished it in 2007, and all of the trout that I caught in my last visit were rainbows. I'm planning on going back this season just to see for myself how the river is doing. Since browns and rainbows spawn in different seasons, each YOY class can be more adversely affected depending on the timing of a flood event, so I'm not surprised that samples show a shift from one trout to the other. What concerns me more from that article is the drastic decline in the total number of trout in the sample.
I really hope this river of the Charmed Circle can rebound.
The Esopus was the first of the Catskill rivers that caught my attention years ago. My wife and I would often camp at Kenneth Wilson campgrounds in Woodstock, and I'd drive to the river and fish every run and pool that I could get access to. Really loved that water, and it helped that the season stretched all the way to November 30th (and it still does) when it was closing in October on most Catskill waters. I do remember catching more rainbows than browns in the early 90's, and most of the browns that I did catch were of the stocked variety.
Floods, exposed clay banks, and dirty water pouring out of the portal put me off that river. I last fished it in 2007, and all of the trout that I caught in my last visit were rainbows. I'm planning on going back this season just to see for myself how the river is doing. Since browns and rainbows spawn in different seasons, each YOY class can be more adversely affected depending on the timing of a flood event, so I'm not surprised that samples show a shift from one trout to the other. What concerns me more from that article is the drastic decline in the total number of trout in the sample.
I really hope this river of the Charmed Circle can rebound.
moosekid
Handsomest Neff Member
I wonder if they were electro-fishing above or below the portal. The way I understand it, the browns park in the tribs between Phoenicia and Boiceville when they spawn. I've never caught a decent sized wild brown in the river, but all the wild ones I've gotten have been in the pocket water between the big boulders in this section.
I catch a lot of small rainbows in faster, shallower water, but this is usually further upstream. I've never gotten anything but bows above the portal. This is why I'm curious where they did their electro-fishing.
I love this river, it's soooo pretty. I'll admit to being one of the assholes who tubes down it in large groups. Sorry for partying. Atleast we don't litter....
I catch a lot of small rainbows in faster, shallower water, but this is usually further upstream. I've never gotten anything but bows above the portal. This is why I'm curious where they did their electro-fishing.
I love this river, it's soooo pretty. I'll admit to being one of the assholes who tubes down it in large groups. Sorry for partying. Atleast we don't litter....
golden beetle
Active member
I think Barleywine proposes an interesting hypothesis, that the river is sensitive to flooding and that these events are unpredictable and may disrupt spawning. Since rainbows and browns spawn in different seasons, perhaps flooding can substantially reduce the numbers of rainbows and browns that hatch and survive to be counted some day in an electro fishing survey.
I like that idea, but let's assume that an entire years worth of brown trout eggs are wiped out by an catastrophic fall flood.
If trout live for 5 years or so, I would estimate the immediate impact on population to be 20 percent (based on simple math, one years worth of population loss in a 5 year life cycle). But that wouldnt explain the radical shift in numbers that you see in the article.
Of course, a flood could cause changes to the habitat.
Even if the surveys were conducted in the same place, the habitat may be favorable to rainbows one year in the survey location and browns the next.
Or is Rusty right in his reply, that browns will eventually take over an ecosystem conducive to trout, such as the Esopus, in most cases where they compete with brookies and rainbows?
Matt Grobert
6/0 Olive Danville
I believe its the flooding and constant turbidity that has caused the change. The browns have been in the river for decades and until the floods in recent years, the rainbows always outnumbered the browns significantly. I also think the because browns feed by sight and sound, and rainbows feed primarily by sight, the browns survive better in the turbid water.
Trout Nazi
And...Boom goes the dynamite.
Actually, I'd like an explanation as to what is going on up in Schoharie Reservoir churning up all of the mud. and last time I fished up there was pre-Irene and I caught all browns.
golden beetle
Active member
Can you start a new thread?
This isn't about why the water is muddy.
So go back to your kindergarten class and leave my thread alone.
Trout Nazi
And...Boom goes the dynamite.
Your question was answered by Grobert, so now I'm hijacking this thread. And stop kissing his ass, your not getting any free flies out of him. Also, be happy that I'm keeping this somewhat on topic, I can easily antagonize CMM into this thread and completely derail things. Bizatch.
I fish the esopus quite a bit and have noticed the change. Last year I started mentioning it to guys stream side and not many noticed a difference. I was starting to think that the storms had changed the river in and around my favorite spots, but not the entire river.
The storms, the sediment and didymo have all changed the river bottom significantly in the last two or three years.
The storms, the sediment and didymo have all changed the river bottom significantly in the last two or three years.
flyI4
Fishizzle, I use worms but I'm looking to upgrade!
it might have to do with trib access/ and or spawning conditions on those tribs. Rainbow trout have to spawn in tributaries from what I've been told, while browns can spawn in river- a big advantage since many tribs in the catskills don't have overly easy accessible entry points to the main river. One advantage the bows do have is that spring typically has high water when they spawn in late february through early april, whereas browns have a crapshoot during their spawning season in the fall where water can be either low or high. This would suggest that the conditions of the tribs are whats impacting numbers.
Yes, tribs were impacted also, but it is difficult to understand the storm damage to the stream itself unless you saw it... Nearly 2 decades of stream improvements wiped out above Phoenicia. Two bridges destroyed. The stream moved 50 yards in places and houses that had large lawns and a river bank are now partially in the creek (and falling into it). They had heavy construction equipment in the stream for months near the portal.
golden beetle
Active member
The Esopus is perhaps one of the best streams in the Catskills. I see more spinning rods than fly rods, and, on one trip to the river, I saw a spin fisher taking eggs from giant browns and using the eggs as bait.
It was a sorry sight.
This was downstream of 3 Arches Bridge. Big rocks, giant boulders, and lake like water. Close to the Ashokan Reservoir.
I imagine the water is deep there. Big browns hold in there like it were an estuary before their spawning run.
Great contributions to this thread.
I believe Ed Van Put's book documents that, historically, the Esopus has had higher concentrations of wild fish than any other noteworthy river in the Catskills.
That makes the Esopus worthy of protection, and hopefully attention from conservation groups like TU.
Barleywine
Member
As TN pointed out, the problems with the Schoharie reservoir churning up dirty water carried through the portal is a problem. The Catskill Mountain chapter of TU won their lawsuit against NYC on this issue about 10 years ago. The city was fined 5 million dollars, but as far as I know, they've done nothing to rectify the problem. Does anyone even know if they ever paid the fine?
The Pataki administration issued a temporary permit for NYC to continue discharging turbulent water in the esopus from the schoharie res. unfortunately the temporary permit doesn't have an end date. I am not sure on the timing, but I think this was in response to the lawsuit.
Since then, there were structural concerns with the schoharie dam. For two years they ran the portal wide open while they repaired the dam. They also dredged around the portal intake valve to remove sedimentation. Rumor has it that they could have also replaced the intake valve, but opted not to due to the cost. I have not seen a noticeable difference since the dredging.
This is has all been an ongoing issue and predates both the storm and rock snot. All three of the changes probably have something to do with the decline in rainbows. In addition to the VanPut book, Capasella's book refers to the study on rainbows, but the original study was done years ago. I am glad to see the state is updating it.
Since then, there were structural concerns with the schoharie dam. For two years they ran the portal wide open while they repaired the dam. They also dredged around the portal intake valve to remove sedimentation. Rumor has it that they could have also replaced the intake valve, but opted not to due to the cost. I have not seen a noticeable difference since the dredging.
This is has all been an ongoing issue and predates both the storm and rock snot. All three of the changes probably have something to do with the decline in rainbows. In addition to the VanPut book, Capasella's book refers to the study on rainbows, but the original study was done years ago. I am glad to see the state is updating it.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
golden beetle
Active member
Makes you wander exactly what they won
Mac, please.
The only thing you can add to this thread is poor grammar.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
That would still be an improvement
golden beetle
Active member
I thought I proposed an interesting idea, that even if the electro fishing is done in the same location every year, that still might not be sufficient a "control" of habitat to assess shifts in fish populations.
Flooding and other factors may cause changes to habitat quickly, and fish can respond to those changes immediately.
Bows may not be displaced so much as their preferred habitat is constantly changing location. I think that's what this study shows, and nothing more.
They would probably have to do random assessments in multiple locations to get a representative sample.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
There you go thinking again
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Good for you coming out of the closet you dirty center pinner
CTobias
Professional BS'r
golden beetle
Active member
CTobias
Professional BS'r
Or no one is paying attention to you.
golden beetle
Active member
Yes, that is a possibility...
Catskill Mountain Man
Explore, and implore to explore
The tributaries to the Schoharie river and reservoir have huge erosion problems. The Beer Kill Water shed and Batavia Kill especially exacerbate the issue. Their banks are full of thick clay and constantly erode into the streams, especially with the high water events we've been having lately.
The clay apparently deposited very close to the portal's intake from the reservoir and there's a lot of it.
The project for a solution would be
-First need to stop the problem from continuing in the tribs before addressing the large clay deposit near the intake of the reservoir. There are multiple farms and fields that go right to the bank that seem to be the main issue. Especially on the Batavia kill, a major trib
-Next when the erosion problem is solved a large project needs to first assess how much clay they'll need to dredge then the project needs to start.
The time frame for the Esopus' yohoo water to be fixed will take a very long time
Trout Nazi
And...Boom goes the dynamite.
All the know-it-alls here, and its CMM that comes up with the most sensible explanation? Will wonders never cease.
golden beetle
Active member
The guy knows his shit.
