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DRBC, FFMP Meeting Notes 3/27/07

rford

Less Than Beeko
Meeting notes should have said 3/27/07 Oops!


Yesterday, I attended both sessions of a public hearing that DRBC held for public comment on their proposed FFMP (Flexible Flow Management Program ).
The meetings were held at the Lake Wallenpaupack environmental center in Hawley PA.

First thing I want to preface is that I went to this meeting with my own special interest: to show support for the Coalitions CP2 plan, and how it could affect and improve the upper Delaware tailwater fisheries. Although I left the meeting with the same enthusiasm for the CP2 plan, I also left the meeting with a new appreciation for how many others are impacted by the management or mismanagement of the resources availed by the all the impoundments in New York state as well, Pennsylvania’s reservoirs managed by PPL.

To give you an idea of the tone and imperative of this meetings impact, you must note that there was from my best count approximately 200 people that attended each of the two sessions held at 2:30 and then at 6:30. There were at least 2 different television stations at each meeting and six or more reporters vigorously taking notes.

The DRBC panel chairing the hearing consisted of an alternate representative of each of the 4 states commissions: Dr. Joseph Miri – NJ, Mark Klotz – NY, Dr Harry Otto – DE, Cathleen Curran Myers – PA and the executive director of the DRBC Carol Collier as well the General Counsel of the DRBC Pamela Bush and the hardest working stenographer I have ever seen. Remember here, Alternate is the key word, at the end of the day the Governor of each state is the one whom is actually the member of the DRBC; however they rely heavily on the recommendations of these alternates. There was by my observation no alternate or representation of the 5th member of the Commission , Major General Grisoli whom is the federal delegate appointed by the President of the United States.

The sessions began with a presentation by Mark Klotz whom outlined the FFMP as proposed. For me the details of this plan are important, but it would take too long to explain or list them here and there are those better qualified then I to comment on the actual scientific details. The key thing here is that the current management program (revision 7) expires on May 31, 2007. At this point the DRBC is compelled to implement a new revision to the plan or a new plan altogether, ergo the FFMP.

Now things get complicated and scientific again. There are so many elements to this plan that have been considered, I once again will differ to the experts, but will try and out line what I feel are the key components. First we much consider the purpose of the reservoirs and the general goals of the original plan and its management.

1. To Safeguard the water Supply and manage this system to AVOID drought.
2. To meet flow targets at Montague to impede the downstream Salinity line and provide repulsion.

As far as I am concerned everything after these two points of management were strictly bi-products of the plan, including habitat protection.

The new FFMP plan in great detail as far as water releases, defends its ability to manage the above elements while more thoroughly addressing the issues of Habitat protection from coldwater management, dwarf wedge mussel impact and Delaware Bay ecological health. Oh yes, they deemed to insert “Flood Mitigation “as well, and this brings us back to the meeting itself.

The meeting was attended as a majority of what I will call the trout people. This included many members in support of the Conservation Coalitions CP2 plan : Trout Unlimited Local Chapters and National, The Nature Conservancy, The DRC, Theodore Gordon Flyfishers, Inc and many private individual members as well including Larry Miri ( flytier), Dr. Peter Kolesar, Agust Gudmundsson, Rick E, Brian Cowden(rusty spinner), Jim Serio(big spinner), Jack Stauffer(oasis man) to mention a few whom gave testimony to the panel, supported by a peanut gallery of our own including Joe T, John H, Pat G, BJ Miller, Sam (tight loops) from the WBA and yours truly to mention a few.

The FUDR was represented by testimony given by Dr. Robert Bachman, Mr. Phil Chase, Jim ( Coz) Costolnick and Lee Hartman supported by attendance of Craig Findley and John Warakomoski ( jaydub).

In addition many unaffiliated Trout people, Dwarf Mussel ecologists, Delaware basin Landholders from individuals landholders to business interests (recreational and corporate), Townsfolk from New Hope to Stilesville including the Mayor of Port Jervis and representatives of the National Park Service.
In fact at the 6:30 meeting about 35 people came to the meeting representing the kayakers and canoeing faction all wearing life jackets! It was quite a scene.

What rang true and in kind from one testimony to the next from 2:30 to 8:45 is that the river is mismanaged, and something has to be done now. Probably the loudest of the voices and the one that touched the most heart strings was the message being sent by the heartfelt testimonies of the riverfront landowners from one end of the river to the other. Testimony after testimony of lost homes, bad to no insurance settlements, FEMA’s almost total neglect and a history and most recent history of one devastating flood event after another.

Here is where the moral imperative seems to take a complete back seat at the DRBC. Clearly when a river system is impeded the natural flow of a river is forever changed. Albeit that the eminent domain principal the Supreme Court granted in giving the water rights away in the publics best interest to NYC and New Jersey is vital to the nation’s economy is an imperative. Somewhere in that doctrine the culpability of those benefactors needs to be in the best interest as well of the downstream residents whom have been forgotten. This message was brought home yesterday and indictments where made and suggestions of an investigation as to the DRBC actions or lack there off, were made.
Remember this system was designed to retain water and prevent drought, not to mitigate flood, and now people want change.

As emotions flared in alternating testimony’s the CP2 plan was clearly the pragmatic and available solution at hand. The consensus of testimony after testimony was that this CP2 plan is available; it’s been proven and modeled time and again.

I think however with the insurmountable task of managing the river for flood mitigation, drought avoidance, habitat protection and all special interests on the laundry list of imperatives, that the implementing the CP2 plan will be the DRBC’s first opportunity to show the public it is listening to all parties. From an environmental and habitat perspective it is the plan that must be implemented to start moving in the right adaptive approach. The parties that have worked collectively many thousands of hours should be applauded for their efforts.

I truly believe that this is a juncture in time that the DRBC will listen to the publics input. The timing is right to start contacting your representatives and the means and contact information is on the Coalitions web site : The Coalition's Delaware River Adaptive Release Policy and I strongly suggest you to immediately do so before this issue is voted on in the upcoming weeks.

Ralph
 
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Re: DRBC, FFMP Meeting Notes 2/27/07

Ralph......MANY THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORTS TO ATTEND AND SUMMARIZE FOR US!!!

I have a couple of follow-up questions from your excellent summary of the meeting.

If CP2 is emerging as the most widely supported plan, do the downstream flood victims also support that plan, and why/why not? Can you give some more granularity to the groups that were in support of this plan, and those that weren't? Finally, was there any discussion of resurrecting the Tocs Island project? There have been some recent rumors of this for flood mitigation yet again.

Thanks again,
QT
 
Re: DRBC, FFMP Meeting Notes 2/27/07

Ralph......MANY THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORTS TO ATTEND AND SUMMARIZE FOR US!!!

I have a couple of follow-up questions from your excellent summary of the meeting.

If CP2 is emerging as the most widely supported plan, do the downstream flood victims also support that plan, and why/why not? Can you give some more granularity to the groups that were in support of this plan, and those that weren't? Finally, was there any discussion of resurrecting the Tocs Island project? There have been some recent rumors of this for flood mitigation yet again.

Thanks again,
QT

The "Flood People" are a bit desperate (very understandably )and some, not all seem a bit uneducated towards how the "system works". They will take any move at this point, and to that end clearly support the CP2 plan. However they are speaking more in terms of wanting a 20 % avg Void in the res'. I personally dont think that would have stopped anything on the last 3 BIG floods. However I do think voids as pointed out by Agust in his testimony will be defining difference of those 2-6 inchs in a "Normal" highwater event that could spare peoples basements and 1st floors, and that still equalls 100's of millions of dollars.

Tocks Island was not mentioned in that context all though general suggestions towards building diversion res was made by some, once again as if that could be done with the blink of an eye, if it would even work.
What was mentioned is a 5 year study on Raising the Res's . I just dont like that idea, sounds like a formula for that show " Seconds from Disaster "

I think we are naive " humans " we try and tame an 800 lb gorilla ( huge understatement) when we build dams. Take a look at the Delaware water gap sometimes. Does that look like the result of a river that can be tamed?
 
Re: DRBC, FFMP Meeting Notes 2/27/07

I think however with the insurmountable task of managing the river for flood mitigation, drought avoidance, habitat protection and all special interests on the laundry list of imperatives, that the implementing the CP2 plan will be the DRBC’s first opportunity to show the public it is listening to all parties.

Ralph

Thank you for the report.

So, if I may be so forward, is anybody willing to venture a guess as to what the odds may be that things will "go our way"?
 
Re: DRBC, FFMP Meeting Notes 2/27/07

Thanks for a great report on the meeting. Keep the updates coming.
 
Hi all,

As you may not know there was a Q&A period from 1PM to 2:30 pm prior to the first DRBC meeting. Let me fill you in on some of the questins that were and were not answered at that time.

I asked the DRBC board " In your FFMP study you make the claim that your plan provides for a increase of 40% of adult trout habitat in the Spring. Answer Yes ! I further asked "What is that percentage in the Summer? Answer - We do not have that data, I will have to get back to you.

Second Question - "Your FFMP study was based on the results of the Oasis Model is that correct? Answer Yes! I further asked "Does your model take into account the probability of refill of the reservoirs. Answer What do you mean? Again I ask "Does your Oasis Model take into account the refill of the reservoirs over the year? After a look at Riverkeeper DR Muldahar. Answer No! "So what you are saying is that you do not count the additional water that enters into the reservoirs above and beyond their storage capacity. Answer No.
So your plan is flawed? No Answer!
The only difference between the FFMP and the CP2 is the CP2 askes for 100 CFS more. As you all are aware the majority of the opposition at the meetings is from flood affected people and municipalities the FFMP and CP2 makes no mention about possiable flood mitigation in Summer months. Along comes FUDR's plan that is sound and simple, Min 350 CFS same as CP2 but a reduction in the reservoir levels to protect for flooding in the summer months based on % storage. the more water inthe reservoirs the more water released. You all have seen the plan. This plan provides for more water in ths summer for the fish and also protects against summer flooding. What use is there for more water in the winter, spring and fall if the fish die inthe summer. The statement was made that this plan increases the # off drought days and for that fact will not be considered or approved. Yet the DRBC admitts that their plan does not account for the probability of refill. Something is wrong here!
As seen at the meeting DRBC is not going to approve any plan CP2 or FUDR's so why not fight for a plan that helps everyone? There are great deal more supporters of flood controll than there are for the fish and the river. So I ask you do you settle for a plan that has little chance and does not protect the people and fish during the summer months when the water is most needed. Or do you form massive support by the flood victims, municipalities and fish people and push this issue a revisit the Supreme court decree? So far the DRBC has shown thier true colors. No one has sponcered the CP2 from the DRBC so the chance of bringing that to the table is slim. Let's see more water in the summer vs less water in summer and Revisit the Supreme Court Decree vs Lets play nice and hope that the DRBC throws us a bone. They haven't yet. Your thoughts?

COZ
 
Thanks Coz,
Is it true that in order for any proposal to be considered, it must be sponsored by a member of the Decree body? Has any of the Decree members agreed to sponsor CP2, or any other proposal, for that matter?

To me it sounds like a Revision 7 Deja Vu all over again. Lets be nice to the DRBC, trust in NYC to do the right thing, believe the figures that DRBC throws around, then say, "What happened?"

I know a lot of people put in a whole lot of time and effort towards the CP2 proposal, but, FUDR has been disputing the validity of the Oasis model all along. Why have TU, TNC and all of the others, not disputed this as well?

I see on another site that the Stanley Cooper Sr. Chapter of TU has disputed this as well, does not support the new proposal, and actually feels there may be some legal violations of state and federal laws.
 
The Stan Cooper Chapter of TU has a smart and informed group of members. Ralph Kates responce to the FFMP is 100% right on.
They also know there is no other option than a re visit to the Supreme Court Decree.
COZ
 
Hi COZ,

Hope all is well!

I'm happy you took the time out to fill us in. I just have one question regarding the FUDR's plan. What is the plan, and what is this new 350cfs number?

I think everyone thinks the FUDR is demanding a 600cfs release? It might be time for the FUDR to update their webpage.

Can you take a few minutes to possibly educate us (educate me) on the FUDR's new and/or updated initiatives?

Thanks alot, and see you in a few weeks.

Dennis
 
FRIENDS of the UPPER DELAWARE RIVER
P.O. Box 69, Minoa, NY 13116 315.656.8313 New Page 1


PROPOSED VOID/GRADUATED RELEASE PLAN
March 27, 2007

Of the issues that confront the Delaware River, there are four that the Friends of the Upper Delaware River (FUDR) believe are the most critical: flood control/mitigation; protection of the upper Delaware’s wild trout fishery and its related habitat; protection of the region’s diverse ecotourism businesses and the related economic impact; and insuring that the water needs of the River’s various consumers are protected.

While there are currently two plans that have been presented, the “Flexible Flow Management Plan” (FFMP) proposed by the Parties to the Decree (DRBC), and the “CP2” plan proposed by the Conservation Coalition, neither adequately addresses these critical issues.

WHAT WE PROPOSE: FUDR believes that there is a plan that is simple, rational, logical and doable that will, in a meaningfully and sustentative way, address the issues of flood control/mitigation, the Delaware’s wild trout populations, and ecotourism while still satisfying consumer needs.

FIRST: A fifteen percent void would be maintained on the upper Delaware’s Cannonsville and Neversink Reservoirs, and a twenty percent void on the upper Delaware’s Pepacton Reservoir during the time frame that is most critical - April 1st to October 31st (the reservoirs would be gradually drawn to those levels of capacity by April 1st). This time frame covers the periods that are the most critical for flood mitigation/control (hurricane season), the temperature and habitat requirements of the wild trout populations and the region’s diverse ecotourism businesses. These voids would immediately trap 47.6 billion gallons of water during flood events. Had they been in effect, they would have substantially offset the flooding of September 2004 and April of 2005 and would have dramatically reduced the devastation of the “500 year flood” in June of 2006.

SECOND: With the reservoirs’ levels capped, a “Graduated Release” paradigm would be implemented for each reservoir that relies on a simple principle – when there is more water in the reservoirs, release more; when there is less water, release less. Since the nature and needs attendant to each reservoir are different, we propose the following Graduated Release regime at the following reservoir levels:

CANNONSVILLE
75 – 85 % - 600 cfs
65 – 75 % - 500 cfs
55 – 65% - 400 cfs
45 – 55 % - 350 cfs

NEVERSINK
75 – 85% - 300 cfs
65 – 75 % – 250 cfs
55 – 65 % – 150 cfs
45 – 55% – 125 cfs

PEPACTON
70 – 80% - 540 cfs
60 – 70% - 420 cfs
50 – 60% - 280 cfs
40 – 50% - 230 cfs



(Note: These releases will continue to gradually draw down reservoir levels, thus
continuing to enhance flood control/mitigation)


THIRD: A further draw down would be implemented in each reservoir whenever a major
storm appears imminent. The draw down would be accomplished, to the extent possible, by maximum controlled releases, as well as, maximum diversions to Rondout Reservoir.

FOURTH: During the first year of operation, FUDR’s proposed plan would be objectively evaluated, and adjusted accordingly every three months. Thereafter, evaluation and adjustment would be on an ongoing annual basis - more often should circumstances warrant. To enhance the review process and to provide residents with some voice in the decisions that affect their lives and property, we propose that a review and evaluation committee be impaneled comprised of an equal number of elected representatives from each state.

With respect to potential drought scenarios FUDR would note: (1) The OASIS computer model relied on by both the City and the DRBC computes only the maximum amount of water (800 million gallons per day) the City is entitled to draw from the three reservoirs, not the actual consumption which is a little over 400 million gallons a day; (2) the drought curves (formulas) used to forecast drought are not objectively reliable and need to be replaced with new, scientifically derived, accurate and realistic curves; (3) the capacity of Rondout Reservoir (maintained at or near capacity with water diverted from the three upper Delaware basin reservoirs) is not included in the current drought curves and Rondout’s capacity is greater than the combined voids FUDR is proposing; (4) without having to alter the mandated Montague flow target, the increased storage and releases from PPL can now be used to assist in meeting that required target, thereby easing that burden on Cannonsville, further enabling the implementation of this plan; (5) while the City of New York has historically chosen not to utilize them, the City does have abundant additional water resources available to it.

IN SUMMARY: FUDR believes that this plan is entirely doable; that it is simple, rational and logical. It is the only plan being put forth that substantively integrates flood control/mitigation with protecting the Delaware’s wild trout fishery, diverse ecotourism interests and the regional economies without jeopardizing the water needs of the many consumers who depend on the River. The plan allows for a predetermined schedule for objective evaluation and adjustment while providing for input, and some measure of influence, from the duly elected representatives whose constituents’ lives and property are influenced by the River’s regulatory process
 
IN SUMMARY: FUDR believes that this plan is entirely doable; that it is simple, rational and logical.

I'm a bit confused.

I thought you guys believed that 600cfs was doable, simple, rational, logical, etc., etc.

I know you guys are reliant on science driving your numbers, so what science says that this is now the way to go?

Why is this "plan" available NOW? And if this is "the best plan" you can come up with, what has caused it to be brought to our attention years after the formation of your organization?

It just seems like you guys are trying to get aboard a ship that has already sailed. This "graduated release" idea was NOT what you guys said was good for the river some time ago, but now...
 
IN SUMMARY: FUDR believes that this plan is entirely doable; that it is simple, rational and logical.

I'm a bit confused.

....I'm confused too. I clicked on the link that Brachy pasted into his update, but can't find the article he posted on this site. Instead, I still see all of the old FFMP bashing and calls for 600 cfs. Did I miss something?

QT
 
Hi COZ,

I think I can clarify a couple of things for you.

You asked:

In your FFMP study you make the claim that your plan provides for a increase of 40% of adult trout habitat in the Spring. Answer Yes !

I further asked "What is that percentage in the Summer? Answer - We do not have that data, I will have to get back to you.

The answer to these questions is, "It depends"

It depends on what you want to compare to FFMP?

Rev 7 which is the policy the last three years

Rev 1 which is the policy we may return to if no new policy is approved.

CP2 which is the Coalitions policy

Also:

What River do you want to use in the comparison?


FFMP has significant increases in trout habitat in almost all of the above mentioned comparisons. (The East Branch is about the same, in some cases) I can give you specific percentages if you let me know what you want to see.

CP2 has significant increases in habitat in the upper section of the mainstem compared to THPDMP. Most everything else is similar to THPDMP, which you would expect, as you pointed out, the major difference in CP2 to THPDMP is another 100 cfs release on the West Branch in the Summer. This is also an increase from 60 to 350 when compared to Revision 7!!


You asked:

Your FFMP study was based on the results of the Oasis Model is that correct? Answer Yes!

That is correct

I further asked "Does your model take into account the probability of refill of the reservoirs. Answer: What do you mean?

Again I ask "Does your Oasis Model take into account the refill of the reservoirs over the year? After a look at Riverkeeper DR Muldahar. Answer No!

These questions were not answered properly, because they did not understand the questions.

"So what you are saying is that you do not count the additional water that enters into the reservoirs above and beyond their storage capacity. Answer No.

I think what you wanted a answer to was:

Does the OASIS model take into account inflow to the reservoirs from rainfall and snow?

This is very different question than what you asked when you inquired about probability of refill.

The answer to the question I think you asked is yes. Inflows are calculated every day of the year over the 73 years of record. This data is from the USGS gauges and is actual data. For instance, data from the Walton gauge on the Upper West Branch was used to determine inflow into Cannonsville Reservoir.

If you were asking something else, let us know, and I will find out the answer to it.

FFMP vs CP2 vs FUDR

As you pointed out CP2 is better than THPDMP since it adds releases in the summer. THPDMP on Cannonsville is 250, while CP2 has a 350 release. These are minimum releases as long as we are not in a declared drought. (This is true 96% of the days during the summer) Releases would be higher when Montague needs water or reservoirs are high. Cannonsville release would be 1000 if reservoir was above 95% in July and August.

The 350 is about the same as the old Rev 1 of 325. The difference is that Rev 1 provided cold water only from June 15th to August 15. CP2 provides a bit more cold water and it starts June 1st and goes until August 31st. Rev 1 releases only 45 cfs the first two weeks of June and the last two weeks of August.

FUDR proposal: In order to try to maintain a void as is suggested, releases would at times have to be above 2000 on the West Branch. This is clearly a waste of water. In some years the suggested releases would DRAIN the reservoirs. Clearly not good!!!! What would the releases be if the reservoir was empty?

The proposal is also incomplete. What happens when the reservoirs fall below the 45% line? This of course would happen in many summers under the FUDR proposal.

Talk about revisiting the Supreme Court decree is of course just talk. While this could conceivably happen in the future. It will not happen by May 2007!!

We need a policy that can be adopted by May 2007 for implementation starting in June. CP2 is just that policy.

Jim
 
Yes I was also wondering about releases levels below 45%.

Also, certianly less water at the start of the year can mean less water for the fishery across summer. This troubles me somewhat (remember the year they got down to about 5% level in Cannonsville due to heavy Montague releases for 2 to 3 months) What would have happended that year under the FUDR proposal?

Coz... in the modeling of the FUDR proposal over the last 10 years (actual conditions). What sort of flows occured in early August? Jim... what would CP2 looked like over the same period?

BTW... I think the FUDR proposal is interesting but I do not understand a few aspects of it.
 
Hi Fred,

Extensive modeling has shown that the minimum releases would be in L2 97% of the time in the summer. That equates to a minimum of 350 cfs. The average release would be about 650 cfs.

August releases would be higher to meet the Montague Target or for spill reduction.

Jim
 
Its April 1st 2007 and according to the thread sometime in May either a new plan will be adopted or the plan will revert back to something else. I was not at the meeting but it sounds as if the likelihood that something other than the FFMP is slim to none. First is this accurate. If it is possible that something else could pass is it CP2. Is what the FUDR proposes even possible given the deadline. It seems to me that you have to interject some sense of reality into the equation at this point. Whats gonna fly

CP2
FUDR proposal.

I dont think people can afford to divide into 2 camps on this. If that happens the likelihood of something worse happenning seems likely.
 
From today's River Reporter: Critics blast DRBC’s new watershed plan


"Paul Rush, deputy commissioner of New York City’s Department of Environmental Protection, said he could “guarantee” that the plan would be changed."

Critics blast DRBC’s new watershed plan
Flexible Flow called “disaster” for local economy
By FRITZ MAYER


UPPER DELAWARE VALLEY — Almost all members of the public who spoke at two public hearings regarding a new plan for managing releases to the Delaware River expressed opposition to the plan.
The Delaware River Basin Commission (DRBC) sponsored the meetings at the Lake Wallenpaupack Environmental Learning Center in Hawley, PA on March 27. The subject was the Flexible Flow Management Plan (FFMP) proposed by the DRBC, which may go into effect on May 31. The plan is intended to protect fisheries in the Delaware River and its tributaries, enhance the tourism industry, mitigate flooding and protect the drinking water supply for New York City and other municipalities that use the water for drinking.
But many of the approximately 200 people who attended the hearings said the plan falls far short in several areas.
Dave Jones of Kittatinny Canoes said, “The FFMP Plan does absolutely nothing to protect against flooding, and actually provides less water to the river for recreational and fishing purposes than is provided now.” He said the plan would deal a serious blow to businesses that depend on the river for fishing and rafting.
Craig Findley, president of Friends of the Upper Delaware (FUDR), said the FFPM would have a disastrous effect on trout fisheries in the Delaware River above Callicoon�also known as the main stem�and in the West Branch. Of particular concern is the level of water released from the Cannonsville Reservoir, located on the West Branch. Findley said historically releases from the reservoir to the West Branch in spring have been about 642 cubic foot per second (cfs). Under the FFMP, the releases would be 180 cfs in April and 250 cfs in the summer, which would not be nearly enough to support the fisheries in the rivers.
Representatives of the governors of New York and Pennsylvania, who are commissioners of the DRBC, said that the plan would more accurately mimic the natural flows in the river.
Findley called that “nonsense.” He said the only way to get to a natural state in the river would be to eliminate the system of watershed reservoirs, which he said is obviously absurd.
FUDR has expressed concern about the plan in the past, especially in regards to temperatures in the West Branch and Delaware main stem. On February 28, FUDR issued a news release, which said if the FFMP were put into effect, in the main trout fishing months of April and May, “Only the first six miles of the West Branch would be cool enough for fishing, reducing the entire 50-mile West Branch/main stem fishery to six miles. Absolutely incredible!”
The new plan would retain the standard for a minimum flow of water measured at 1750 cfs at Montague, NJ.
But with additional releases planned from Lake Wallenpaupack, in part to generate more electricity at the dam, there is concern that less water will be required from the Cannonsville Reservoir, which would further contribute to the FFMP’s negative impact to the Delaware River above Lackawaxen, PA and to the West Branch.
There is a second plan being discussed by the commission, called simply CP2, which was put together by a group called the Conservation Coalition. Findley said that plan is also inadequate. He said both plans were generated by outdated methodologies that need to be replaced. For instance, he said, the plans were based on the maximum amount of water that New York City is allowed to take out of the Delaware watershed, which is 800 million gallons per day, rather than the actual amount the city takes, which is about 440 million gallons per day.
FUDR has also proposed a plan, which Findley said would accommodate the needs of all groups involved.
Officials who spoke at the DRBC meeting said that the plan was attempting to balance many competing needs, but the plan had not been finalized. Cathy Curran Myers, Pennsylvania’s representative on the commission, said she fully expected the plan to be significantly revised. And Paul Rush, deputy commissioner of New York City’s Department of Environmental Protection, said he could “guarantee” that the plan would be changed.
Before any plan can be put into place, it must have unanimous agreement from the governors of New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Delaware, as well as the New York City Department of Environmental Protection.
The DRBC will accept written comments on the FFMP until April 6. Email can be sent to paula.schmitt@drbc.state.nj.us, regular mail can go to Commission Secretary, DRBC, P.O. Box 7360, West Trenton, NJ 08628-0360, or fax 609/883-9522, attention: Commission Secretary.
 
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On February 28, FUDR issued a news release, which said if the FFMP were put into effect, in the main trout fishing months of April and May, “Only the first six miles of the West Branch would be cool enough for fishing, reducing the entire 50-mile West Branch/main stem fishery to six miles. Absolutely incredible!”

Is this quote from Mr. Findley true? That is, only the first 6 miles of the West Branch would be cool enough for fishing?
Again, is this a TRUE statement?
 
Hi Future,

Good question.

Have you been able to fish the West Branch and Mainstem below the 7 mile mark in April and May the last few years?

The answer is yes.

I am not sure how Craig Findley calculated that releasing more cold water into the river during these months under FFMP would reduce the cold water fishery to only 7 miles.

Just more unsubstantiated Findley rhetoric.

Jim
 
Future, not only is that statement by Findely untrue, most of his quotes are untrue and the write from the River Reporter just shows that the media will print anything.. Lets look at some detail.

UPPER DELAWARE VALLEY — Almost all members of the public who spoke at two public hearings regarding a new plan for managing releases to the Delaware River expressed opposition to the plan. - Not exactly accurate.


The Delaware River Basin Commission (DRBC) sponsored the meetings at the Lake Wallenpaupack Environmental Learning Center in Hawley, PA on March 27. The subject was the Flexible Flow Management Plan (FFMP) proposed by the DRBC, which may go into effect on May 31. The plan is intended to protect fisheries in the Delaware River and its tributaries, enhance the tourism industry, mitigate flooding and protect the drinking water supply for New York City and other municipalities that use the water for drinking. - They were public comment hearings and it should be referred to as THPDMP. Plus Mr. Findley did not make a statement.


But many of the approximately 200 people who attended the hearings said the plan falls far short in several areas. Because many of the 200 people at the meeting did not understand what the only options are

Dave Jones of Kittatinny Canoes said, “The FFMP Plan does absolutely nothing to protect against flooding, and actually provides less water to the river for recreational and fishing purposes than is provided now.” I doubt this is an accurate quote, Dave would not speak on behalf of fishing especially when FFMP and CP2 put more water down the river than ever before.

He said the plan would deal a serious blow to businesses that depend on the river for fishing and rafting.

Craig Findley, president of Friends of the Upper Delaware (FUDR), said the FFPM would have a disastrous effect on trout fisheries in the Delaware River above Callicoon also known as the main stem and in the West Branch. Of particular concern is the level of water released from the Cannonsville Reservoir, located on the West Branch.Go figure Findley is quopted in the negative. All I can say to this or anytime I hear Findley of FUDR --- CHICKEN LITTLE


Findley said historically releases from the reservoir to the West Branch in spring have been about 642 cubic foot per second (cfs). Jeez, you would think the president of a "so-called" fishing group would have their facts straight by now. 642 CFS is the historical AVERAGE FLOW, measured at the stilesville guage over a 20 year period which includes spills. Not a release. This 642 number can be acheive by 10 days in a row of 45 CFS and then a flood.

Under the FFMP, the releases would be 180 cfs in April and 250 cfs in the summer, This is true, this would be the release, not flows under FFMP, CP2 would have them even higher. Add this to the findley abacus and see what you get.

which would not be nearly enough to support the fisheries in the rivers. Well according to Lee Hartman (FUDR executive board member) at a public hearing, he did say Rev 1 created the fishery, so there must be some conflict within FUDR, both FFMP and FFMP with the CP2 release structure put higher releases and more water down the river than anything in the past. uh oh, that quote slipped out again.

Representatives of the governors of New York and Pennsylvania, who are commissioners of the DRBC, said that the plan would more accurately mimic the natural flows in the river.

Findley called that “nonsense.” He said the only way to get to a natural state in the river would be to eliminate the system of watershed reservoirs, which he said is obviously absurd. CHICKEN LITTLE

FUDR has expressed concern about the plan in the past, especially in regards to temperatures in the West Branch and Delaware main stem. On February 28, FUDR issued a news release, which said if the FFMP were put into effect, in the main trout fishing months of April and May, “Only the first six miles of the West Branch would be cool enough for fishing, reducing the entire 50-mile West Branch/main stem fishery to six miles. Absolutely incredible!” Absolute brainless statement

The new plan would retain the standard for a minimum flow of water measured at 1750 cfs at Montague, NJ. WOW, Finally something accurate!


But with additional releases planned from Lake Wallenpaupack, in part to generate more electricity at the dam, there is concern that less water will be required from the Cannonsville Reservoir, which would further contribute to the FFMP’s negative impact to the Delaware River above Lackawaxen, PA and to the West Branch. Dont know of any change in release works at PPL, The only additional releases are scheduled for winter to release snpwpack and avoid heavy spills

There is a second plan being discussed by the commission, called simply CP2, which was put together by a group called the Conservation Coalition. Findley said that plan is also inadequate. Again, Findley does not understand that both FFMP and CP2 put more water in the river.
He said both plans were generated by outdated methodologies that need to be replaced. For instance, he said, the plans were based on the maximum amount of water that New York City is allowed to take out of the Delaware watershed, which is 800 million gallons per day, rather than the actual amount the city takes, which is about 440 million gallons per day.
This clearly shows FUDR does not understand, or maybe they just hear what they want to hear. First, THPDMP is based on modeling of a 765 diversion not 800 MGD. And, 440 is not accurate, its closer to 542. It would be intersting to see what these outdated methodolgies are.. oh, they must be talking about OASIS again. Outdate possibly because FUDR doesnt know how to use the model and has not requested their update data.


FUDR has also proposed a plan, which Findley said would accommodate the needs of all groups involved.
yeah, if you took his quote from up above. "eliminate the system of watershed reservoirs," FUDR put out a plan that was rejected by PATU and added a few notes in it to ralley flood people.
That plan is based on nothing but averages over 10 years, would empty the reservoirs on a somewhat dry year. Their plan, which was not really a plan, it was read at the public hearing, it was submitted to the public. All this was is a very poor PR attempt to give false hopes to the flood victims by mentioning VOIDS. They basically are using the flood victims to push this plan, which will increase the times the basin goes into drought by more than 100%. Its not even complete. I would have called it more of an idea that tried to bring FUDR back into the good graces of the people they were threatening to sue not long ago.

.......
Just a bit of advice for FUDR and Mr. Findley.
A short editorial...
This was a very poor PR attempt to re-purpose FUDR’s 600 or nothing releases on the West Branch, and try to save face with the towns and people of the Upper Delaware Basin, the people and towns you threatened to sue not long ago. All by using the vulnerable victims of recent floods for their support by a series of misleading and misguided statements. This proposal is weak at best and is not even complete. It is based on nothing substantial besides promising flood prone areas a void in the reservoirs that can not be achieved under this plan. There are no release numbers during a time when snowpack is plentiful and when the upstate reservoirs start to refill. There is nothing in this plan that discusses what happens when the reservoirs fall below a certain level. There is nothing in this plan that addresses what happens when the upper basin reservoirs reach drought levels. It may have possibly helped offset flooding a little bit over the last years, maybe, however the reservoirs would empty on a dry year and there would be no water.
 
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Check the fudr web page and look for the actual press release, I did.

Craig Findley said:
With this release regime, and no spillage, you can expect that when air temperatures reach into the high seventies and above, the water temperatures in the West Branch and the Main Stem will hit 70-80 degrees from above Hale Eddy on the West Branch, all the way to Callicoon on the Main Stem. Only the first 6 miles of the West Branch would be cool enough for fishing, reducing the entire 50 mile West Branch/Main Stem fishery to 6 miles. Absolutely incredible!

http://www.fudr.org/flexflow.htm
 
I have been researching info on law suits against NYC bureau of water supply that took place in the mid to late 1970's. These suits have to do with riparian rights, the changing of the river from a warm water to cold water river. Landowners in NY were compensated and Pa represented their land owners in the suite. I believe that the settlement was for damage from the date of the rulings back to the year the resv were built.

I have some info pertaining to this subject but have had limited success in finding the actual cases. Will keep looking into this.

If anyone has any info please PM me.

Fred
 
Fly Tier:

Have been away for a week but just had the opportunity to read your ridiculous FUDR rant. Your facts are wrong as usual the daily NYC diversion is presently at 440 mgd of which approximately 25% is sold meaning that NYC only needs about 330 mgd. Check USGS numbers for NY resorvoirs.

CP2 did an excellent job proving that there was more water available under the existing criteria (drought curves, ERQ, etc). The problem is that the present criteria need to be revisited (this is well understood by most) and even admitted by Dr. Kolasar and others. The efforts were valiant but the reality is that there is more water available.

1. Drought curves need to be updated. These appear to be arbitrary and only represent the crony DRBC cherry picking.

2. Additional storage is ignored in their formulas (Roundout, Conseco?). The reason as Mulidar explained to me was that they did not have feeder tributaries and would not be considered. Yet the addition of a higher Cannonsville Dam will provide more "storage". What? are they creating more feeder streams?? This is clearly public record.

3. The ERQ results in way more water available than 35 mgd. More DRBC "coolaid" based on their drought curves and drought days.

4. The daily NYC usage has been going down and will continue in spite of the population of 18 million. This was pointed out by Dr. Kolesar.

5. As stated above NYC only uses about 330 mgd (diverts total 440). The formulation is based on 778? or almost 800mgd. Where is this water going (Jim, how can you even mention the word waste). Perhaps you could enlighten us on how much water the DRBC is selling. Where are the gauges on the Raritan canal?

Neither plan adequately considers those of us who lost our homes due to flooding. Other groups appear to be mounting a much more serious battle for this issue. Real impact studies could find conservatively hundreds of millions in private losses. Not to mention public infrastructure which could be another hundred million? We all pay for this.

Regarding the argument over how many miles the water will be cooled in the West Branch (6 or 7??). We all watched the gages at Hale Eddy over the past several years (the temperature accountability was a joke). The Mainstem was dead for much of last summer (even before the flood). Under the current plans only a drought and Montegue needs will revive the lower river. Lee Hartman has repeatedly shown data that show the severe decline in downriver catch rates. The reality of the fishing quality appears to be only opinion from all of we fishing bums (including mine). However, like Jim Serio, I live on the river all summer and have observed the drop in quality during low flows. If I remember correctly the DSS studies are incomplete on the Mainstem (Colin Apse?). However, I could be wrong!

Regarding your editorial, the threat of a lawsuit was an effort to prevent channelizing (an obvious abuse of habitat and a kneejerk response). Where was the DEC, TU National and the other supposed fly fishing environmentalists. Now you criticize the only group that had the stones to publicly threaten legal intervention when this should have been an overwhelming response from all. Instead you see this as an opportunity to weaken the only group that had the guts to intervene. In fact you seem to constantly whine and criticize and obsess over defaming those with a common interest. FT, why don't you just pick up the phone and call Craig Findley. Maybe he could shed some light on his "misleading and misguided statements."
FUDR did not do this because they thought they were unjustified or mean spirited. They did it because no one else would step up to the task.

As I said the Coalition makes an excellent argument for the CP2 and hopefully will impress the DRBC enough to consider a better plan. However, even they realize that there is more available. FUDR did not present as compelling a plan. However, they are entitled to their opinion and in the end may contribute even more to the change and may even be correct. Even though there may be disagreements, this should be a collaborative effort. Their efforts are no less passionate. Their time and commitment no less accountable.

The last thing that the DRBC wants is to go back to Revision 1. The decision will probably be postponed (my guess) until more studies and opinion are completed. If the down river flood advocates continue to mobilize, this could be years!!

Ok, so the argument continues, have fun you computer cowboys! Let's hope the weather warms so we can fish instead of obsessing over FUDR.

Pete
 
I have been researching info on law suits against NYC bureau of water supply that took place in the mid to late 1970's. These suits have to do with riparian rights, the changing of the river from a warm water to cold water river. Landowners in NY were compensated and Pa represented their land owners in the suite. I believe that the settlement was for damage from the date of the rulings back to the year the resv were built.

I have some info pertaining to this subject but have had limited success in finding the actual cases. Will keep looking into this.

If anyone has any info please PM me.

Fred

I talked to an old timer on the West Branch last week who was talking about a settlement that land owners got from NYC.
He was saying the same thing about warm to cold water, etc.

Its a good and bad situation I guess.
On one hand it is bad that NYC sucked up all that acreage for a resevoir.
On the other hand, they continue to buy hundreds of acres every year above the resevoirs and that land will more than likely never be developed or further spoiled by sprawl.
I would rather see it go to NYC, instead of some mountain developments with corny names, like in Milford PA.
 
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