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Delaware Past flow statistics

Ant

New member
Does anyone know if theres a way to get 2007 flow data for the Delaware?

I'm wondering what the flows were like in June and July of last year.

I just don't remember the river flowing at about 350-320 for most of the season, and every time I take a look thats all we got on the west.

The main is at about 736 and hit 73deg yesterday. It really hasn't even been that hot.
Maybe the flows being held back will insure water for the really hot weather to come in July. Maybe these flows now are actually beneficial for when we really need water in July. BUT 73deg yesterday just sucks for what I think has been a somewhat cool June.


Thanks
Ant
 
Bottom line is TU and other organizations have negotiated horrible flows and the river is a complete disgrace. I was on the WB yesterday and although the water temps were good the river was too low, loaded with green slime and the fish dispersed the second you step foot in the water. The more groups that squawk to the various water commissions, the worse the conditions get, has anyone besides me notice that? I am not a conspiracy theorist but I think it is now being done on purpose to tweek certain groups for their aggressive and overly emotional approach to negotiating. Hopefully the dam develops a crack and we get the water we used to get.

I'm so tired of hearing about how this plan or that plan is working in the middle of January, take a vistory lap once the flows are at 450 consistently on the WB from June 1 thru August 31st and I'll be the first to applaude!

GH
 
Bottom line is TU and other organizations have negotiated horrible flows and the river is a complete disgrace.

I am not a conspiracy theorist but I think it is now being done on purpose to tweek certain groups for their aggressive and overly emotional approach to negotiating. GH


I read your post and was hoping for you to come right out and say what you really feel.

but THIS!!!! it was a shocker I'll tell-ya.

Careful there GH.. you will start to develop a reputation of a trouble maker.

But I would like to dig a little deeper into you conspiracy theory...

The snake will look this one over tonight and most likely pull the trigger on it for what he would consider off topic. But fear not, at least I read it.

AK Skim
 
Bottom line is TU and other organizations have negotiated horrible flows and the river is a complete disgrace. I was on the WB yesterday and although the water temps were good the river was too low, loaded with green slime and the fish dispersed the second you step foot in the water. The more groups that squawk to the various water commissions, the worse the conditions get, has anyone besides me notice that? I am not a conspiracy theorist but I think it is now being done on purpose to tweek certain groups for their aggressive and overly emotional approach to negotiating. Hopefully the dam develops a crack and we get the water we used to get.

I'm so tired of hearing about how this plan or that plan is working in the middle of January, take a vistory lap once the flows are at 450 consistently on the WB from June 1 thru August 31st and I'll be the first to applaude!

GH


The groups that you malign never were part of any negotiating team.
It would be great if they had that power.
There were 2 public comment periods regarding the FFMP, hopefully everyone here took the time to voice their displeasure with the proposed plan. Whether or not that will carry any weight is disputable,

NYC has been holding the system hostage despite what any of the other downbasin states including NY state requests.
See the enclosed press release from TU.

June 14, 2008

Press Release: Upper Delaware River Temperature Crisis Has a Solution

The Flexible Flow Management Program (FFMP) that is now being used to manage the water releases from the three New York City reservoirs on the upper Delaware River must be changed immediately to release more water into the river. The ecological crisis on the upper Delaware over the last week proves the inadequacy of the current FFMP program.

Here is what has happened. After a period of relatively cool weather, on June 6th air temperatures throughout the region shot up into the 90s. With the minimum “conservation” releases in effect under FFMP, only 260 cubic feet per second (cfs) of water was being released from the Cannonsville reservoir into the West Branch of the Delaware. With so little cold water being released, the water temperatures shot up into the high 70s and beyond to the 80s, -- a range which is lethal to the trout. For example, by June 11th water temperatures at the Lordville USGS gage reached 81.7 oF. All the while, Cannonsville and the other New York City reservoirs stood at over 95% of capacity.

This intolerable situation is no surprise and could easily have been avoided. A coalition of conservation organizations, including Trout Unlimited, Theodore Gordon Flyfishers, The Nature Conservancy Eastern New York Chapter and The Delaware River Foundation, which is devoted to maintaining and improving the aquatic ecology of the upper river, in partnership with Columbia University developed the mathematical framework that underlies the FFMP. But the coalition’s model called for substantially larger cold water releases from the dams -- precisely in order to avoid the type of crisis we currently face. When the Delaware River Basin Commission (DRBC) implemented the FFMP, it replaced those releases with its own inadequate program of low water releases. As a result, the coalition’s mathematical models predicted exactly what has come to pass – dangerously high water temperatures.

A simple solution is available. The higher water release levels that were originally suggested by the conservation coalition under its “CP 2” proposal have already been demonstrated to provide substantial benefit to the River with no increased risk to the City’s water supply. The DRBC and the New York City Departmental of Environmental Protection who jointly control the Delaware releases need only implement the CP 2 releases immediately. Instead of the paltry 260 cfs release now authorized from Cannonsville under FFMP, the CP 2 release would be 350 CFS. Although this would not entirely solve the current crisis, it would greatly mitigate the situation by extending the reach of cold water down into the West Branch and main stem Delaware Rivers. And, increasing the Cannonsville reservoir release to the coalition’s newer “CP 3” proposal of 450 CFS would protect the Delaware River further downstream.

Resistance to increased water releases comes principally from New York City. The City would prefer to hoard water behind its dams regardless of the needs of stakeholders in the region. Extensive computer based statistical analysis of the upper Delaware carried out at Columbia University has shown that New York City’s hoarding policy is entirely unjustified. The modest increases in water releases into the River suggested above would not in any appreciable way increase drought risks for New York City, or for any of the other users of Delaware River water. The three New York City dams on the upper Delaware, Cannonsville, Pepacton and Neversink currently stand at over 93% capacity and the Rondout reservoir stands at 98%. Increasing water releases to CP 2 or CP 3 levels would reduce the water storage in the reservoirs by 1% or less -- literally a drop in the bucket!

The higher releases would provide another important benefit to River communities – increased reservoir voids. Higher summertime releases will result in more space in the reservoirs by early September which creates a buffer against the very real potential of hurricane caused flooding. The upper river communities below the New York City reservoirs which have experienced three “100-year” floods in the past five years deserve increased protection.

The bottom line is that the policies that the coalition proposes would have no real impact on water storage yet would yield a substantial benefit to the environment and to the river communities. There is no reason for further delay. The scientific evidence supporting such a change has been well documented and made available to the authorities at the DRBC and New York City.

Sincerely,

Trout Unlimited
Theodore Gordon Flyfishers
The Delaware River Foundation
 
Thanks TK, I think I found what I was looking for from your link, but for the west.
It doesn't have 2008 stats though. Maybe I need to see if thats available.

Whats with the 20 posts I need to have before I can post a link?
Is it a safety feature I'm unaware of, or am I reading the error on the post reply window incorrectly. Just add the USUAL beginning to the below info:

waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/monthly/?referred_module=sw&site_no=01426500&por_01426500_7=1049408,00060,7,1912-11,2007-09&format=html_table&date_format=YYYY-MM-DD&rdb_compression=file&submitted_form=parameter_selection_list


Ant
 
Ask Dcabarle. He is the moderator on the board. Don't know much about that. Sorry.
 
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Once again, TU is out to destroy the trout fishery. You caught us. Our true mission is to wipe out salmonids everywhere in North America. We thought we could hide our true intentions, but it looks like Green Highlander was too smart for us. We've been outed.:rolleyes:

TU and our coalition partners were successful in convincing the DRBC to adopt the Flexible Flow Management Plan (FFMP). No negotiations happen, we convince. It is up to the DRBC and the Decree parties to negotiate within their groups as changes must be unanimous within the decree. We STRONGLY urged them to adopt a much higher flow regime within the FFMP, but we have yet to be successful. The FFMP is a great plan, provided there is enough water released within that plan.

What we need is for the angling community to COME TOGETHER and not to drive wedges with misinformation as was the case with GH's post. I have been in the middle of this fight for several years, others on this board for far longer. The hot temps and low flows all while the reservoirs sit fairly full are a testimony to what we've been fighting for which is that there is ample water for the fisheries AND all other users of this water while not jeapordizing NYC's drinking water supply in the least. Be vocal in support of more water within the newly adopted FFMP! We have the science behind us and, being an optimist, I have faith that we'll prevail soon.
 
Once again, TU is out to destroy the trout fishery. You caught us. Our true mission is to wipe out salmonids everywhere in North America. We thought we could hide our true intentions, but it looks like Green Highlander was too smart for us. We've been outed.

Well, the avatar of this poster has the TU seal of approval.. so it must be correct and available for wide distribution.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Oh wait… maybe.. just maybe.. he was just being funny or.. Sarcastic..
<O:p</O:p

I’ll have to take this under advisement and get back to you, the members.
 
Rusty,

Please do not put words in my mouth, I did not say or imply in any way that you are out to "destroy" a fishery. All I said is that TU and other organizations (not togther or simultaneously) have negotiated bad flow plans and agreements. Wasn't it TU that negotiated the 220 cfs plan years ago or did I dream that one?

Your response is indicative of, and just another example of the emotional and defensive nature of the conservation groups. I'm not spreading misinformation, the more groups that get involved the worse the conditions become...do a study on that one. I am entitled to my opinion even though it does not coincide with yours...

GH
 
Thanks TK, I think I found what I was looking for from your link, but for the west.
It doesn't have 2008 stats though. Maybe I need to see if thats available.

Whats with the 20 posts I need to have before I can post a link?

Ant
Ant,

at one point I would wake up in the morning and have to remove a bunch of posts regarding sex, cell phone sales, viagra, etc... Other than AK, nobody seemed to be interested in the sex and viagra posts. Also, this stops new users from coming onto the site, pumping their business's, then never returning.
 
Rusty,

Please do not put words in my mouth, I did not say or imply in any way that you are out to "destroy" a fishery. All I said is that TU and other organizations (not togther or simultaneously) have negotiated bad flow plans and agreements. Wasn't it TU that negotiated the 220 cfs plan years ago or did I dream that one?

Your response is indicative of, and just another example of the emotional and defensive nature of the conservation groups. I'm not spreading misinformation, the more groups that get involved the worse the conditions become...do a study on that one. I am entitled to my opinion even though it does not coincide with yours...

GH

GH,
You are absolutely entitled to your opinions, even if they are wrong. TU did not "negotiate" any deal. I'm sorry if you felt I put words in your mouth, but this is an important distinction that I feel you got wrong. We pushed for, just as many others have pushed for, our plan. One component of that plan, the FFMP framework, we have been successful in getting implemented. The other part of our plan, adequate flows within that FFMP plan, we have not yet been successful in obtaining. Yet we continue to press for more water. We do this publicly through DRBC comment periods as well as through the press, by working with our coalition partners, and by working the back-door channels with every influence peddler we have contact with.

When you state "Bottom line is TU and other organizations have negotiated horrible flows and the river is a complete disgrace" you imply that TU wanted the current result, in fact lobbied for it. This is where we disagree. I'm not sure what the 220 cfs is that you are talking about. Either that was before my time or I just am not aware of it. As I said earlier, I am only a few years into this fight. Big Spinner and others have been at this FAR longer and with far more input than I have. My fight was as a TU volunteer and remains that way today - I do not get paid by TU to fight this fight, I just love the river and its tribs like so many of us do, yourself included.
 
Doesn't TU have this special lodge some where really nice for ... well let me put it this way... upper echelon member's...??? and not (t)hose $35.00 a year member's?

Don't know - but I'll find out. If they do, I want an invite:)

Wait a minute, I think they do or did. It belonged to one of the founding members and I think was deeded to the Michigan council or the first chapter, something like that. It would have been on the Ausable up there. I believe it was sold off somewhat recently (last couple of years), but I'd have to check.

As for those "upper echelon" members, I'm counting on two of them to help pay my salary:). When I told my wife I needed to take them fishing later this year, she just did this: :rant:

By the way (not aimed at you, AK), I don't think TU is a perfect place - never did, but I can't imagine working for another organization dedicated to trout protection and restoration. I've been a vocal critic at times as a former grassroots volunteer and I continue to point out our flaws from within. Now I'm in a better place to do something about those issues.
 
The FFMP is a great plan, provided there is enough water released within that plan.

Brian,

Any plan is a great plan provided there is enough water released. Once a "plan" doesn't have enough water being released it ceases to be a great, or even good plan.

Joe
 
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