wild vs. stocked

[willowhead]

Well since Dennis closed the thread about the Esophus............i'd like to let you all know a few things. First of all when the Cornell Extension University students where here assisting the DEC to do the elctro shocking of 73 BeaMoc tributaiies, i had to give them permission to shock my brook. Out of all 73 tribs they did, only two were done over and over and over again, (my brook, Stewart 7 times that i know of), in order to get some long term data. Stewart Brook, and Trout Brook on the lower Beaverkill near East Branch. The shockings showed almost the same thing each and every time. They blocked off (netted) a stretch about 200 ft. long and let nothing in or out. Each time they made three passes, bucketing the fish after each pass so that they were never counted more than once. On the first pass they (almost invariably) found trout in the 30's (numbers), on the second pass in the 20's, and on the third pass, in the teens. Meaning that they found between 60 to 70 trout each time they shocked. And that is in a 200 ft. section of a small tributary 70 ft. behind my house. The largest single fish was an 18 and a half inch wild brown. Nat Gillespie was here that day and took a pic of the fish. They also found more browns they anything, then rainbows, then brookies. Stewart Brook is one of the most important spawning tribs. on the Willowemoc. I also happen to know of an electo shocking that took place in the 80's and of all places shocked on the Willow, the mouth of Stewart Brook is where the most fish were found in a single place. Keep an eye out for my shotgun if your thinking of EVER getting anywhere near the place. LMAO. Point is that if the tribs hold those kinds of numbers, then i have np problem believing that the Esophus DOES have at least 4 to 5 thousand rainbows per mile. How many of them are wild i do not know. I don't put a lot of stock in DEC numbers. The DEC has made great strides in recent yrs., but for a LONG time they were as much a part of the problem in the Catskills as part of the solution, imho. And as long as they continue to hold to their beliefs as far as stocking goes, i still do not respect that mentality. Business is business, but fly fishing should be something more. Fly fishing, YES fly fishsing. NOT just fishing. Don't get me wrong, i have no proplem with any type of fishing, it's just that i believe we need to designate the Beaverkill and the Wiloowemoc, fly fishing only. There is plenty of OTHER water for the spin guys. In this day and age, we need to set something aside for being as special as it is. To demonstrate what could be.....can be.....should be. We could set a hell of an examaple if we did that. Show the world just how special it is, and what it means to us. Alas, not enough people really care on that level. mark........

 

[dcabarle]

I wouldn't go posting this stuff publicly like this. Apparently you haven't met the midnight poacher yet. He can normally be found stalking the Trout in Al Caucci's Home Pool however, I think he's been known to venture as far away as 30 miles from the Home Pool. Wouldn't you know it, you're about 26 miles away, right?

 

[JOE.T]

I guess I missed another post or something? But who says there's 5000 fish per mile on the Esopous?

Is there an actual study that was conducted and documented?

 

[willowhead]

That's approximately right Dennis. But NOT to worry. My four dogs trained to warn me if anyone gets within a 16th of a mile of here. And trust me, you don't want them on your ass. They can almost outrun my shotgun. LMAO, mark..........

 

[Esopus Jim]

Joe,

I recently moved to within a half hour of the Esopus, so I've been fishing it for the past 9 months or so.

The 5,000 fish/mile study is also referenced in the Jim Capossela book on the Catskills - as it turns out the Esopus chapter of his book can be found online at: http://gorp.away.com/gorp/publishers/countryman/fis_cats.htm

Whether or not we want to believe the study - the river maintains a healthy population of 8-10 inch rainbows. That is both a curse and blessing. Once the fish get beyond ten inches or so, they swim downstream to the reservior and you'll only see them in the spring during the spawn.

The other issue with the Esopus is that while there are hatches, they aren't as regular as other catskill rivers. In addition, the portal supposidly dirties the water (it also keeps it cool in the summer), but I have not found it to be very turbid. So far as I can tell, the more successful fishermen use nymphs and emergers with little weight. People looking to fish dries won't do as well on the Esopus.

If you like wild fish, and don't mind nymphing - the Esopus is great. If you want to catch big fish on dries, you might want to look elsewhere.

-jim

 

[RW]

Joe T. RW here

Read the entire thread. It's closed to posting but not to reading. It's under the heading " clipped fins" a short ways down on the front page. I quoted right out of TU's and DEC's booklet on the Guide to the Esopus River. I had a decade of experience on the Esopus throughout the 80's, and I can assure you that my friends and I had 60 trout days on that river, albeit they were small rainbows. (6-to 10-inches). My biggest was a 3-pound 20-inch rainbow, but 12-to 16-inch browns were also common. I doubt much has changed in 10 years.

The rainbows were stocked in the 1890's and took off from there. The only stocked fish on that stream now are browns, because the river is loaded with small, wild rainbows. The Ashokan Resevoir (built in 1912) gave them their private little ocean, which is where the big ones retreat to after spawning, and is why there are so many small rainbows caught throughout the river system. I don't know if they stock brookies in the Esopus. I doubt it. but I do know we used to catch some pretty little wild brookies in the headwaters of Esopus tribs like Woodland Valley Creek and Stony Clove Creek (Chichester), which runs through Phoenicia, and some very nice browns and brookies in The Beaverkill (not the famous one). This Beaverkill is also a little tributary of the Esopus that runs from Route 28, up Route 212 for four miles towards Woodstock. I spent a lot of time on that little stream too. I took some nice browns out of this trib. I don't understand why Dennis closed the thread, I thought it was quite informative, and I was only trying to help folks who wanted information, regardless if some didn't believe me. I know what I know..I know what I experienced, I didn't make it up, and I quoted from actual studies by DEC and TU. Whether folks choose to believe me or not is up to them. I was only trying to help. And if Dennis doesn't want the benefit of some website member's experience to help other members... that's fine too. I'll just lurk and I won't post anymore of what I would think is useful info.

Later, RW

 

[GARYB]

RW
It's still the same, plenty of wild rainbows, like you said 6" to 10".
Two springs ago in 2002 I pulled out 4 rainbows spawners 17" to 19" up in woodland valley. I couldn't believe it!
Gary

 

[BEAMOC]

ANyone ever fish the Westkill? I've been interested in checking it out for a few years now and will hopefully get there this summer. Thanks.

Keith

 

[biot]

But NOT to worry. My four dogs trained to warn me if anyone gets within a 16th of a mile of here. And trust me, you don't want them on your ass. [/B]

Yea Mark that's quite a collection of cannines you got there, not to mention the Guinnie hen alarm system. I know this because I stopped by on Sat, about 12:30, but no Avalanch in the driveway so I headed north to George's place. Anyway you'll let me fish back there, won't ya ?

 

[JOE.T]

I spoke with Wayne Elliot from the DEC today about the Espous and 5000 fish per mile.

When I said 5000 per mile He chuckled,and said and in so many words that he thought the numbers where exagerated.

He is sending me the most recent report.Ill post the results when I recieve it.

JOE.T

 

[biot]

I'm looking forward myself to seeing that report.Anyway I used to fish the Espous in the fall when supposidly the rainbows follow the browns that are spawning to grab themselves a meal, the egg eaters that they are. Mostly I go in the fall because the tubers that are there during the summer can be a pain in the ass. It's been quite a few years since Ive fished the Esopus, and if it's a good report I'll probably head back there again this fall.

 

[Mayfly]

Joe,

I think you'd agree that while 5000 trout per mile may be an overstatement, and personally not having seen any data I have absolutely no idea.

 

[willowhead]

John, you can fish it anytime you like. Sorry we missed you. We were up near Ithaca at a friends Fly Shop Open House. And we had dinner at his house afterwards. And we stopped at the Riverside for coffee, desert and Cognac on the way home. Must of been midnight by the time we got home. Next morning i had a TU meeting (10 chapters) at 9:30 a.m. at the CFFC&M, then a TGF C.C. meeting at 1:00 p.m. at my house, then two casting lessons, then chores, then a round trip to Manhattan and back to take my wife back to the city. "And the hits just keep commin'." mark.......

 

[JOE.T]

It ws the 5000 per mile that struck me.

Of course there are more than 5 fish per mile,I think he used that to demonstrate a point.I dont think he meant it literaly,at least thats the way I read it.

JOE.

 

[bjmiller]

I've been fishing the Esopus for over 40 years now, not so much lately since I now usually fish the Delaware (figures, I now live 12 miles from the Esopus and rarely fish it, and when I lived 50 miles away, I would hit it a whole lot more. Funny how that works.), but it is one one the best natural reproduct rivers in the state for trout. May the info that JoeT gets from Wayne Elliot will go into that.
Like others have posted, lots of small bows, all are wild!!!! There are also lots and lots of wild browns there. Certainly there are lots of giant browns in the Ashokan, which is the reason for the large population of wild browns in the river. My experience there is that during years of high water, the larger bows stay in the creek longer, sometimes even all Summer. In drier years, they don't hang around very long as the water warms.

And yes, RW, 60 fish days are very possible!!!!

Also, Esopus Jim, the Portal now runs much clearer, thanks to Bert Darrow and others. They had a long hard fight with NYC to accomplish it but it has turan out well. It used to run VERY turbid for a lot of years.

Bruce

 

[JOE.T]

Bruce

With all this talk about all these wild fish, I may head up there tonight.

 

[RW]

Allan, Joe T,

You guys are amazing. You, Allan, say you have no personal data to support my report, and continue by saying my post may be overstated. And you, Joe, have to go check with another biologist.
Why don't you guys just call me a liar. Joe T, the stats I gave are based on studies done by DEC and put into book form by the Catskill Chapter of Trout Unlimited. I assume your friend, Wayne Elliot works for the DEC, so why would he laugh (chuckle) at reports and studies from, and generated by, the very outfit he works for.

You're arguing about a given. The reports may not be accurate, but where are you going to find anything that can dispute them. Where is the higher authority to dispute them. I mean DEC does the studies, they do the electroshocking and the creel census, and all the rest of it. It's what anglers say, and think, off the top of their heads that is speculative, and generally not based on facts.

By all means get the studies...that's what I did. But to do it because you want to check up on me and think I'm exaggerating or something smacks of one-ups-manship. I was responding to a post about the Esopus. I didn't post the information I had, just to be told, I must be exaggerating. I'm reading right from the freakin reports. It's insulting.

Okay, here it is again right from the report:

"Trout population estimates obtained from electrofishing indicate that the Esopus Creek in the 12-mile section below the Portal has an average standing crop of 100,000 trout, of which 74,000 are one year or older. Wild trout comprise 97 percent of those that are one year and older. These figures were obtained from data collected at the end of the trout season. In the beginning of trout season the numberss of trout in this section are greater yet."

"DEC findings indicate that rainbow trout, the dominant species, migrate to the Ashokan Reservoir at one or two years of age. This means that there are very few stream rainbows over nine inches during certain times of the year, usually during the summer months of July and August."

Based on that particular part of the study, it appears that my original figures were conservative. 100,000 trout in a twelve mile section comes out to about 8,000 trout per mile, not 5,000. And don't forget these include 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9-inch trout, many not of catchable size. You can poo poo those figures all you want , but don't make it sound like I made em up. I was just answering a question. And yes, I had 60 trout days (legal size, but small) on the Esopus. I didn't make that up either. And apparently some of the old timers on this site agree with me. You can't overstate what you've already experienced.

Later, RW

 

[Mayfly]

RW - I was not questioning what you offered. My comment was that I have not seen the data. Oh, and to be brutally honest, whether it be 5 or 5000 to 8000+, I really don't give a rats as* LOL. My first response was simply to the absurdity of the 5 trout per mile claim.

Relax RW otherwise your hair and beard will turn white *G*

Allan

 

[GARYB]

Right on RW
The river has tons of fish , the problem is 95% caught will be 6 to 9" long, and all summer you will dodge tubers/canoes. The hatches are not on par with Bkill,etc. So if you want small fish this is the river. Just don't expect to catch 5 16" browns on dries. Right now it's muddy from a bank collapse. Hope this thread dies soon.

 

[RW]

Gary: Me too!

Allan: My beard is already white, and my hair is gray....I'll start relaxing when it all falls out.....lol

RW

 

[bjmiller]

RW,

I do remember reading about the study on the Esopus and it would not surprise me that it is close to accurate. There is an absolute shitpot full of trout in that river, although mostly small. An excellent nursery stream, one of the best (if not the best) in the State. Don't get too upset, RW. It's not worth it.

Bruce

 

[JOE.T]

RW

Sorry, I did not read the other posts you are talking about.

I had no idea until now that you had even spoke about the trout pops on the Esopus.

I asked for the report because I was on the phone with Wayne Eliott. The reason for my call was actually because of the Neversink flows. I brought up the Espopus because I was curious.

If you read the very firsy post on this thread, Mark talked about the fish pops on the esopus and thats what got me thinking.

 

[willowhead]

Bruce,

Bert Darrow is on our committee, as i am (TGF Conservation Committee). I've been on that committee for about 10 yrs. We were the first to begin the suit which resulted in the portal running cleaner. We then agreed to let the Catskill Mountain TU chapter, (RW Catskill Mt. not Catskill) be the lead plaintif in the suit if they would match us dollar for dollar in the cost of the suit in which they did.

 

[Fly Tier]

Mark, Do you want to re-cant that statement above? or at least tell the entire story about the Esopus law suit? was that the real reason why TU Catskill chapter led in that law suit? Dollar for dollar? There was a heck of a lot more to that decision Mark. 15 months of meetings leading to the lawsuit almost going south. Educate us on the entire story mark.

 

[willowhead]

FT, as far as i know, we brought the suit. I attended many of the progress report meetings over the 4 years or more we fought the battle. And basically if it weren't for our friend at Pace University we might not have won. Ron Urban might be able to fill you in a bit more. He fought long and hard with the rest of us. That man is a champion for fish, and deserves a LOT of credit. mark.........

 

[Fly Tier]

I think Bert Darrow can fill us all in more than anyone. It was a god send that Pace did this Pro Bono.

 

[willowhead]

Well maybe Bert is/was privy to things i wasn't.........i couldn't care less, one way or the other. As Fats Waller always said......"One never knows........do one?" mark.........

 

[fab]

Let me make myself clear that I Love the Esopus. Its my favorite river. Its also the the longest drive for me. 40 miles over the hill.

I said closer to 5 per mile. last I heard 2500 was closer . PLus I also think some areas hold more than others.

Also I work for the state and have done and seem reports they put out. I would believe a cornell report or a TU report before any state information.

I do know they are understaffed and have no money, Debruce is going to be getting 2 new guys soon.

I would love to see NY get a trout stamp like PA ans NJ