When is it new? (again)

[Scott]

Remember the parable of Grandfather's axe - Ol' Granddad had an axe, it was the best ever. Grandfather dies, and the axe is handed down. While splitting firewood one day, his grandson breaks the handle, so it gets replaced. Some years later, the great-grandson is driving in a fence post, and the head cracks around the eye. So he replaces the head. Grandfather's axe is as good as new and still the best axe ever...

So when reviewing patterns of some well known tiers, we see dozens of flies tied in the same style, but with variations in color and maybe the odd different material. Each has a different name, and is considered a different and unique pattern.

So when does the fly become a new pattern?

How many materials must be different, how many colors must be changed?

 

[McAwful]

Scott,

In the Arts, a simulacrum is a copy of a copy of a copy. Example: 1St generation-An actual physical chair, 2ND generation-a photograph of a chair, and 3Rd generation (the simulacrum)-a xerox of the photograph of the chair. I think it is a new pattern when the chair becomes a couch or when you hit the stage past a simulacrum. The couch still has four legs, a seat, and a back but it now looks different and there is room for a hot redhead to sit next to you...

McA

 

[Scott]

Redhead

 

[Scott]

e.g.

Here's an example: I'm a huge fan of the Rangeley style, so this is the way I tie 'em most of the time.

I started out last night with a plan to tie up a bunch of Rangeley Favorites, Gray Ghosts, and Yellow Devils. I started getting bored and decided to make up a few prototypes.

Take a look at this one:

This one started out as a #8 Rangeley Favorite. (Note the silver tinsel body)

Instead of Peacock herl on the underbody I used pearl crystal flash.

Then I decided to give it an olive maribou crest, and instead of a double gray hackle wing, I put a gray on top of a grizzly hackle. I did this to give the top of the shoulder a dark color and the wing a translucent barred look - sort of like salmon parr marks - both of which show better when it is wet.

It has a gray maribou beard, and the ususal silver pheasant shoulder & jungle cock cheek of a Gray Ghost.

So is it a Gray ghost? Is is a Rangeley Favoite? I'm not sure it's either, although it shares materials and features from both, and some unique materials not found in either.

So I think it's more of a gray ghost variant - so I'm calling it a gray wraith...:dizzy:

 

[Pete]

It's really up to the tyer.

I can tie a small woolly bugger on a wet fly hook and call it a mini-bugger, or I can just say it's a small woolly bugger.
OR
I can tie a Mickey Finn with a mylar piping body instead of tinsel, use red and yellow calf tail instead of bucktail for the wing, and still call it a Mickey Finn.

BUT
If you tie commercially, for people who know their flys, you can only go so far before having to change the name. You might have gotten away with painted eyes instead of jungle cock, but your creation shouldn't be sold as an authentic Grey Ghost (nor a Rangeley Favorite).

You can fish it under any name you want. If it turns out to be better than any of the patterns that inspired it, you may even want to take credit for "Scott's Wraith". :rofl:

It's hard to make a "rules", even for commercial ties. I wouldn't feel decieved if a tier used a properly colored and textured synthetic, instead of natural fur in a March Brown.
BUT
A Hare's Ear should have a body of fur from a hare's mask.

 

[AKSkim]

What if ???

You use a 6x v. 10x hook ?? different size hooks.

US Dollar bill in place of hurl ?? both are green.

Tied it on a tube v. a hook shank.

A pattern is still a pattern.

and in almost all cases.. someone already used that material combination and had not claimed it to be their pattern...

However, anyone can call anything theirs, just don't expect everyone else to acknowledge it as a 'new" pattern or expect people to call it by what someone else decides to name it.

Just remember lad... Al Gore has claimed to have invented the internet... Oh yeah.... I still get a chuckle out of that one....

Just my opinion....

As always, the (true) inventor of the wheel.

AK Skim

 

[Scott]

What if ???

You use a 6x v. 10x hook ?? different size hooks.

US Dollar bill in place of hurl ?? both are green.

Tied it on a tube v. a hook shank.

A pattern is still a pattern.

and in almost all cases.. someone already used that material combination and had not claimed it to be their pattern...

However, anyone can call anything theirs, just don't expect everyone else to acknowledge it as a 'new" pattern or expect people to call it by what someone else decides to name it.

Just remember lad... Al Gore has claimed to have invented the internet... Oh yeah.... I still get a chuckle out of that one....

Just my opinion....

As always, the (true) inventor of the wheel.

AK Skim

So you're saying this streamer:

Golden Witch

and this one:

Shang's Favorite

are the same pattern?

 

[AKSkim]

Lad, my hourly rate is $450.00 USD

If you could please make an appointment, and cash in hand, I shall make time for you.

My office hours are from 9 to 5 Monday thru Friday.

AKS

 

[Scott]

A "yes" or "no" would have sufficed.

 

[Andy B]

Hi Scott:

Good question, from an old timer like me I would have to answer your question as a variation. Now to complicate this issue further, let's take the Haystack devloped up in the Adirondac's and then take Joe Caucci who took the Haystack and variated it into a comparadun dry fly instead of an emerger. I would half to go with calling it a new pattern because the fly had it's shape and style changed/variated and a split tail added thus truly changing the make up of the fly entirely. Now if Joe would have changed just some minor things and substitued some material then I would say it is a modification. This is a Tuff question to answer and in some cases I feel it comes down to a fly to fly kind of catagory.

Andy B

 

[Scott]

Thanks Andy, interesting perspective.

 

[Scott]

So you're saying this streamer:

and this one:

are the same pattern?

Here's what got me thinking about this: These are two patterns tied by the same tier - they are original Carrie Stevens patterns.

The top streamer is a Golden Witch, the bottom one a Shang's Favorite. The only obvious difference in the patterns is the shoulder material - and the name.

So are they two different patterns? Or are they variations of the same pattern?

Also, I've been to a couple fo Charlie Meck's seminars over the years, and he never fails to talk ardently about how his "Patriot" dry as the best attactor he's ever used.

Charles R. Meck Fly Fisherman and Author Online Articles

I have heard & read several opinions that is it simply a Royal Wulff with blue thread (or as the article mentions krystal flash) instead of peacock herl on the body.

So is it really an original pattern?

 

[Andy B]

Scott:

Far as Carrie Stevens patterns that you are showing me in your post I truly feel it is just variation of the other. Keep in Mind when we talk about this you have to go back in the time of the day when Carrie was tying streamers that never were done by others and also keep in mind by a Women. This was truly big time stuff back in that day. Now in the time and day that you and I live in, this would not really be such a big deal as it was back then. To make my point, since Carrie and here flies were a big deal way back then her modifications were new flies becuase she named them after people, places and things. Far as history goes Carrie was not ever observed tying her flies except buy one or two lucky individuals. Her flies as I am sure you will agree are truly fine works of art that I am proud to tye and fish with today that catch fish. These old flies like my true love wet flies have a special place in my heart that makes me love them that much more. I am a thow back in time and love the history and times when it seems life was simpler. Scott, I hope I answered your question. This was a good post and enjoy these types of good discussion. I feel this post is still left up to the individual to look at it and make there own conclusions. I feel your insight has you pretty much on the correct path.

Andy B

 

[AKSkim]

Scott:

Far as Carrie Stevens patterns that you are showing me in your post I truly feel it is just variation of the other. ... Scott, I hope I answered your question. This was a good post and enjoy these types of good discussion. I feel this post is still left up to the individual to look at it and make there own conclusions. Andy B

Copy or replicate, make or manufactured with intent to sell is still committing a fraud under many state statues.

Hope I do not find Scott down on Canal Street selling his gray wraith...

As always, keeping it real.

AK Skim

The TRUE inventor of the wheel.

 

[lestrout]

Scott - re the Patriot vs the Royal Wulff: the iridescence of the Krystal Flash instead of the herl makes a big difference in performance. So that makes it a different pattern for me.

I used to use the RW as a major go-to for a searching attractor, or maybe as an aggravator to a recalcitrant trout. Now the Patriot has acquired that role, because it is much more effective for me on both Eastern and Western waters. I have run the comparison back and forth quite a few times to validate this conclusion.

The Patriot is also more durable, the herl being the weak point on the RW.

tl
les

 

[Scott]

I like to fish. I don't make a living at it. It's something I do for fun. I do not claim to be an expert, although I try to help others when it is in my power to do so.

I always say "If it's not broken make it better." So sometimes I try to change things, tweak things, use different things, and try to make things better. Sometimes things work better, sometimes they don't.

I do not sell flies I tie, but I might give them away from time to time. Especially if I run into someone streamside that is not doing well, (and assuming I am) I may offer a fly or two and say "try this, it's working for me". I do that because others have done the same for me, and I try to pass that on when I can.

I was experimenting with different materials, and noticing that some famous and some not-so-famous tiers and fishing experts have created several patterns that share almost identical materials, but have different names.

So it occurred to me to ask - What makes a pattern a new one? I thought it would be an interesting topic that might make for some intelligent and enlightened discussion.

I included a photo of a streamer - a Rangeley Favorite/Gray Ghost based streamer I tied using some slightly different materials, referred to it as a variation and named it tongue-in-cheek “Gray Wraith”.

The topic was apparently misconstrued by some as an attempt on my part to change some materials in a classic pattern, rename it, and call it my own.

That would be an erroneous conception on their part, and I hope I have been able to explain the intent of my original discourse with sufficient clarity to assuage any enmity attracted concerning this subject.

 

[Andy B]

Scott:

Well said and I feel as I said before that you are on the right track. Here is my input to help guide you further along. NOTHING, I could'nt of said it better myself. Keep up the good work and help to others. Truly is'nt this what we should all strive to do.

Thanks
Andy B

 

[AKSkim]

an erroneous conception

I am sorry but I don't fully understand what you mean by this...?

If you could please take the time to explain this. I read your entire post and other than this I understood.

As always, willing to listen and learn

AK Skim

 

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[Mayfly]

Scott,

Since you ask, I consider a fly "NEW" if you can easily see a significant difference .

Here are examples of things that are not significant and therefore the fly does not deserve a "NEW" name:

- A substitute that looks almost the same as the original, i.e. dyed mallard instead of wood duck; the same material and color but from a different dye lot; a different material but the same general color, i.e. rabbit instead of muskrat.

- Same fly but different size or shape of hook.

The photos of those 2 streamers are not clear enough for me to say they are the same or different.

 

[Scott]

I am sorry but I don't fully understand what you mean by this...?

If you could please take the time to explain this. I read your entire post and other than this I understood.

As always, willing to listen and learn

AK Skim

Credit for the following definitions belongs to Dictionary.com, lest I be accused of plagarism as well as fraud.

Erroneous: containing error; mistaken; incorrect; wrong: an erroneous answer.

Conception: a notion; idea; concept: She has some odd conceptions about life.


i.e. "wrong idea".

Perhaps a less obscure construct would have been "erroneous conclusion".

 

[AKSkim]

Thank you for your time and effort.

As always,
AK Skim