Upper Delaware River - PA / NY

[_ritter_]

In today's Times Herald Record:

New law imposes whopper of fee on fishing guides


May 16, 2006

New law imposes whopper of fee on fishing guides


Life as a fishing guide on the Delaware River is tough. Guides have to work with whatever Mother Nature provides. In some years, it's too much water. In others years, not enough.

Guides are at the mercy of Mother Nature, the fish and, most importantly, the customers. And you won't find any millionaires among them, either.

Now, Pennsylvania has added a hurdle. Under a new law, New York guides who work the Delaware River have to pay $400 per year in fees to Pennsylvania. That's on top of fees paid annually to the United States Interior Department and the state of New York.

The Delaware, under the jurisdiction of the National Parks Service, is a boundary water. If you drew a line down the middle of the river along the New York/Pennsylvania border, you'd have the dividing line between the two states.

Both states allow cross-border fishing. If you hold a New York fishing license, you can fish either side of the river. It's an equal-access process that has worked well for many years.

Fishing guides licensed in Pennsylvania will have to pay only $100 per year to work the river. All other Delaware guides will have to pay the $400 fee.

Tony Ritter, a well-known and respected Delaware guide with 12 years on the river, is perplexed.

"Is it fair and equitable to be charging a New York guide that lives across a boundary water four times the yearly fee that is charged to a guide that lives on the other side of the same border river?" Ritter said.

"In essence I would be breaking the law if I had a fishing charter and launched my drift boat in the Upper Delaware River on state of New York land, floated down the river a few miles and then took the boat out on New York land "¦ even if I had a current license from the National Park Service and the NYS DEC."

Ritter is just one of the many local guides who work hard to make a living against the odds. Local fish-and-game clubs, as well as individual anglers, can help the guides voice their opposition to the new fee. Send your letter to: Dr. Douglas J. Austen, Executive Director, Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission, P.O. Box 67000, Harrisburg, PA 17106.

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[end article]

 

[cingras53]

Let's see....Pennsylvania is imposing a $400 fee to NY Guides who float a common border/ navigable river while imposing a $100 fee to Pennsylvania Guides floating the same water.
I recall something in Law School about Interstate Commerce and the U.S Constitution and how a State cannot interfere with commerce betwwen states etc. This is not the same as a non-resident license fee imposed on activities within the state. This adversely affects NY Guides who theoretically stay in New York waters. I smell a Federal lawsuit brewing.

 

[comparadun]

The two states must get together and agree on a common fee for guides working those waters...and......

Fees should be increased to get most of those LAZY driftboat guides off the river!!!

They never did, and never will belong on upper Delaware waters...they are the MAJOR reason for overcrowding on the entire WB, EB and upper MS.

Yep...there is a feeding fish...drop the anchor no matter who is wading nearby and start flailing the water...

I think it is now time to call ALL driftboat fisherman "fly fishing weenies"......CDun.

 

[Wise-Man]

Man that sucks. Totally not fair. Why note re-regiser in PA?

 

[brachycentrus]

Comparadun,
You are such a punk !!! Why not say that to my or others face, not from the safety and anonymity of your computer.

The disparity in fees are not truly reflected.
NY charges $100 for 5 years.
Pa. charges $2000 for the same 5 years.

Additionally, Pa requires that you put them on your policy as additionally insured with a higher aggregate than the NPS.
That resulted in an insurance increase of $200.
So, the math says:
Ny guides license for 5 years : $100
Pa guides license for 5 years: $3000

NY requires that you test and stay current with all Red Cross certifications.
Pa. requires that you sign the check.

 

[MACFLY]

CDUN is at it again

CDUN doesnt care about what they are charging guides. He just wants the river to himself like in the good old days. Someone forgot to tell him it isnt his river....never was and never will be. We should all chip in and buy him a kiddie pool with trout so he can fish by himself without fear of contact with another fisherman.

 

[NJFred]

Tony,

Thanks for the post. That does smell like dead fish.

 

[NJFred]

CDUN will be the first to complain if drift boats are banned. His favorite wading parking spots won't have any space left! Let alone spots to wade in.

 

[comparadun]

brachycentrus.....I do!!....driftboats do not belong on these waters.....period.

NJFred....Parking spots have no space left as it is....won't be much different.........

I would applaud the removal of driftboat fishing on these waters...these people would now have to become "real" fly fisherman....most would drop out; these "weenies" would not fish near as much and be at home crying to their mommy............CDun.

 

[NJFred]

CDUN... Plenty of spaces left. I know because I fished more than even you last week.

Plenty of spots from Lordville up to the top of Deposit.. it wasn't a problem. Most boats were on the Main or course. However, I did see some folks floating on Thursday on the WBD. I suppose between the wind and low water you might say they were "Dragging".

 

[jack1266]

Do pontoons count as drift boats? I tried one out on Sunday for the first time and rather liked it.

 

[Trav2xl]

boats, boats, and more boats.

speaking of "dragging," what if all those driftboats on the Upper Delaware purposely DRAGGED THEIR ANCHOR behind them for 300 yards like one of the 15+ driftboats that passed me one day last week did? Would that be good for the river, or no?

 

[NJFred]

I suspect more damage to the system is actually done by waders stepping all over the river bottom for hours at a time. On the other hand, the overall impact of even waders on insects is probably small.

 

[leadhead]

w.w.j.b.

Cdun,


If Jesus came strolling down the river(on it,of course) with a fly pole, would that make him a drifter or a wader? Or would it all depend on how close he was to you?


:bootyshak leadhead

 

[brachycentrus]

What if?

What if Pennsylvania decided from this day forward, you needed a Pa. license to fish the Delaware border water.
Reciprocity no longer applies.
We own the West Branch and Main Stem where there is a common border with NY.
We just need the money. Pay up or you will be arrested, car, rod and equipment will be confiscated. You have no say in the matter.
Non resident $52.00.

 

[Trav2xl]

no problem

Perfect.
I'd pay it in a heartbeat. Fewer people would want to deal with the hassle of purchasing 2 different licenses in order to float the river. This, of course, would limit the number of "guides" anchoring up on top of me.

 

[NJFred]

I don't think so Travxl. You can puchase those licenses at one location and you don't even have to leave home or the comfort of your tieing desk. You can now buy NY licenses on line and have been able to with PA licenses for some time.

In terms of cost, I think people would not be happy but would still pay up for two licenses. Afterall, if one can affort $350 + a $50 tip for a drift boat and guide what's another $50?

Finally, my observation is that most guides are very respectful of waders. Example, wading the west brand last week, my buddy and I had split the river. He fished toward me from the bank. I was in the middle of the river pitching to a riser near the far bank. Drift boat comes down and I saw the guide comtemplating what to do. He had absolutely no choice but to run a fish over. No getting out of the boat and dragging behind a angler. I saw his dilema and told him to run mine over as my buddy was pitching to a large fish. He was extremely thankful and said that hcommunication is key. He wished more waders would speak up as he approached them in a boat. I agree. My fish was back up in 15 minutes.

The only problem I have ever had with a boat was a guy almost ran me over. He was not a guide and was clearly a novice or even a first timer in rowing the boat. I can forgive that. What I can't fogive is he never said he was sorry.

 

[Trav2xl]

NJ Fred:

Being from NJ....I don't think you've spent enough time on the river to understand what goes on. I live here, so I'm on the water more days than not. Therefore, I see the grand scheme of things.
The last guide that anchored on top of me was, I believe, from Skaneateles, NY. How far from the river is this? You can figure it out. The deal was, he spent the $ to get to the river with his clients, they were gonna catch fish come hell or high water.
His unethical behavior was bad enough that, after parking 30 ft. below me, he chose not to look my way, deliberately avoided looking at me, when I finally decided to walk around him (like, 15 feet behind his boat) to get below him and his client. No anglers were in sight for 300 yards, up or down river. He simply didn't care. Was it because he was from out of town....perhaps...do the guys that live in delaware county and work the river daily operate differently....perhaps... a few....but what percentage? The almighty dollar usually wins over etiquette.

The day before that, I stepped out of the river to "relieve myself." Upon return, I found that a driftboat had rowed BACK UPriver to take my spot. I spoke with the guide, and he departed.
Kind of puts a damper on the enjoyment of fishing when one constantly has to look upriver in order to hold his/her spot on the riverbed due to the floatilla of boats, don't you think?

In terms of the money thing...again, I'd GLADLY accept the fee, the people willing to pay for the guide, the tip, and the 2 different licenses are rarely good fishermen/women, anyway, or why the hell else would they hire a guide?......Course, if the guide ties on the fly, instructs as to where and how to cast, a fish or two may be caught....I guess that's why neophyte anglers pay to float through true fishermen's water.

Do a search of "delaware river guides" and see how many are actually from the area. Add the idiots from way out of town, thinking they'll make a living, plus the people that think that they know enough about boats to row one down the delaware and it's branches, , and you've got a great deal of idiots, in boats, on the river. The best is the drifting of the upper EB in recent years. OH, YEAH, that's a great river to put a HYDE on.....

I had a guy in a driftboat act couteous the other day, too. A pleasant surprise. It does happen, but for me, since april, no. Once.

 

[MACFLY]

NJ Fred:

Being from NJ....I don't think you've spent enough time on the river to understand what goes on. I live here, so I'm on the water more days than not. Therefore, I see the grand scheme of things.
The last guide that anchored on top of me was, I believe, from Skaneateles, NY. How far from the river is this? You can figure it out. The deal was, he spent the $ to get to the river with his clients, they were gonna catch fish come hell or high water.
His unethical behavior was bad enough that, after parking 30 ft. below me, he chose not to look my way, deliberately avoided looking at me, when I finally decided to walk around him (like, 15 feet behind his boat) to get below him and his client. No anglers were in sight for 300 yards, up or down river. He simply didn't care. Was it because he was from out of town....perhaps...do the guys that live in delaware county and work the river daily operate differently....perhaps... a few....but what percentage? The almighty dollar usually wins over etiquette.

The day before that, I stepped out of the river to "relieve myself." Upon return, I found that a driftboat had rowed BACK UPriver to take my spot. I spoke with the guide, and he departed.
Kind of puts a damper on the enjoyment of fishing when one constantly has to look upriver in order to hold his/her spot on the riverbed due to the floatilla of boats, don't you think?

In terms of the money thing...again, I'd GLADLY accept the fee, the people willing to pay for the guide, the tip, and the 2 different licenses are rarely good fishermen/women, anyway, or why the hell else would they hire a guide?......Course, if the guide ties on the fly, instructs as to where and how to cast, a fish or two may be caught....I guess that's why neophyte anglers pay to float through true fishermen's water.

Do a search of "delaware river guides" and see how many are actually from the area. Add the idiots from way out of town, thinking they'll make a living, plus the people that think that they know enough about boats to row one down the delaware and it's branches, , and you've got a great deal of idiots, in boats, on the river. The best is the drifting of the upper EB in recent years. OH, YEAH, that's a great river to put a HYDE on.....

I had a guy in a driftboat act couteous the other day, too. A pleasant surprise. It does happen, but for me, since april, no. Once.

Trav2xl

Someone forgot to tell you its not your river. While plenty of driftboat guides can be disrespectful so can the people who wade the river and this has been the case since the dawn of flyfishing. You have a right to complain about guides that are not respectful but get off your high horse when it comes to people that are not quite the master fisherman that you are. See some people just want to have the experience once or twice in their life and since it is public water its their right to hire a guide and pound the river to a healhy white froth just as much as it is your right to wade the river. A true fisherman wouldnt worry about the neophytes and just worry about fishing. You probably are fortunate enough to spend ample time on the water so I doubt your fishing is really suffering. In other words act grow up!!!!!

 

[NJFred]

Trav2xl... while I'm sure I don't fish the river as much as you, I have encountered enough boats to have an opinion as you have one as well. I'd love to set up a poll to see how others feel about how courteous the boats are on the Delaware. I'm sure we all have pretty strong opinions on this (Can someone do this? I don't know how).

Also, do not assume for a second that all or close to all folks who hire guides can't fish. It's simply not true. I hire a guide from time to time to float the Mainstem as I enjoy access to big water that the boat and guide provide. Those who know me would likely tell you that I can fish and fish well. Also hiring a guide for someone that has limited time on new water makes a lot of sense as they can learn the water faster and enjoy it more over the ensuing couple of days.

 

[comparadun]

The simple fact remains....driftboats(I'll include stinktoons) never did; and never will belong

on ANY of the Upper Delaware waters....yea, I know; now you'll have to practice in the back

yard to cast more than 20ft.....bummer for sure...take them out West........maybe you

weenies can catch a few fish there and have some open water where you don't have to,

day in and day out; crowd out and anchor right by real fisherman?..........I'll be looking for

you pals this weekend...............CDun.

 

[NJFred]

CDUN... did it ever occur to you that if you stopped wading only at the end of the Deposit and Sheehawken boat ramps you would have less of a problem with crowding from boaters and angler's alike?

Your pal,

NJFred

 

[MACFLY]

Cdun

Lets get that collection started for CDUN and his buddies. WalMart has a sale on kiddie pools and we can stock it with an assortment of trout from the local hatchery. Sorry CDUN you are lost my friend!!!

 

[JW1970]

Since mid-April when the crowds arrived, I've hiked MILES each outing to the WB to find "open water." I don't float and I put in at least 3 or 4 miles per outing (many times a lot more) on my feet prowling the water. That used to make it possible to find plenty of space and open areas to fish, but not anymore. The overcrowding extends far beyond the access points these days. It includes the increasingly dense floatilla of boats as well as the increasingly arrogant horde of waders -- going as far as this year having a disturbing number of people driving vehicles on the railroad tracks, parking on private land and outright trespassing to access the river. It's crowded. It's overcrowded. Anybody denying that is just trying to rationalize that they aren't a part of the problem.

This b.s. about "my river" and "your river." What a crock to hide behind. When CDun is standing in a spot fishing to, stalking or waiting out fish (or resting or observating the pool or run), that IS his river if he arrived there first. You can go to open water well above (if you can find any) or open water well below and make it YOUR river, but trying to stake claim to some portion of the water he already is working is just fueled by your own selfish, self-entitled arrogance that you "have the right" to fish there too. B.S. And when I say open water, I mean giving a guy enough room to work a pool or river, not giving him 150 foot diameter of water (it's BIG freakin' water up there) to hope a fish rises within.

Next time I see someone's car parked in a parking spot on a public street, what if I just bounce that poor s.o.b's car out of the spot and put mine there? Or what if I park so damn close to him that he can't even get his car out. Or what if just like a drift boat coming down the river I choose not to move him from his parking spot but rather anchor up along side him with my vehicle and double park him in? Is that all my right too? After all, it's my street and my parking space just as much as his. Surely he'll understand that I want to be right there too and won't mind. :no:

I guess I'm old school (and have probably fished up there far longer than most that frequent this board) and I refuse to move in on another angler unless they outright invite me. Even then I usually decline. I do my best to give everyone ample room to find and stalk fish, without my efforts imposing on their efforts. Hell, one unusual day midweek I found one of the bigger pools in the no kill of all places with only one angler fishing. I couldn't believe it. The pool is big enough (in my opinion) for 3, maybe 4 anglers from head to tail (most of you would think you can cram 10+ guys into it). He had fish in front of him, below him and above him. They were the only damn fish feeding. I easily could have slid myself close enough to pick off a few fish, but unlike the growing majority fishing this system these days, I turned and walked away thinking how nice it must be for that single angler out there right now enjoying a rare moment of solitude, able to focus on his fishing and have fun rather than worry about the ###hole moving in on him. I did that even knowing (after observing him) that he probably wouldn't even catch any of them. I dare say 90% or more of you wouldn't have done that. You'd have thought there was plenty of room and plenty of fish that were "yours" and it was your "right" to go after them. And that behavior's become the norm. Rather the right thing to do was giving that angler the 150+ feet on either side of him which gave that angler the room to properly cover the water, work the river and stalk those fish.

And as for your "rights," keep in mind that holding a license grants you the priviledge to fish. It isn't a right. And regardless, in society your "rights" only extend as far as the point at which they begin to impose on the "rights" of others in that society. It's a very delicate relationship that many take for granted.

With the crowds not letting up, I've turned my sights on other areas of river(s), because fishing 50 feet from 15 other wade anglers or having boats stack up 10 deep or having to pick a little piece of water and hope there's a fish in it, and having to constantly keep track of where those idiots all are and where they're moving to, that isn't fishing to me. It might be to you, but to me that's just a hassle and a joke.

Real fishermen would identify overcrowding and respect the peace, quiet and space another angler should have while fishing.

 

[comparadun]

JW1970.............now that's telling it like it is.....great reply!!..................CDun.

 

[NJFred]

JW... it is getting more crowded on the river. I will grant you this.

However, I do not appreciate that both you and CDUN paint all of us as newcomers to the water, I do not appreciate your cliams that we aren't expert fisherman (so what if we aren't ). I do not appreciate you suggesting that we aren't respectful of other anglers. I do not appreciate you painting us as lazy and that you are the only folks who walk up and down the river away from access sites. I do not appreciate you telling me that it's not right to float the river.

I'm sure the other anglers here feel similar. If you really feel that the river is overcrowded please offer up solutions (practical ones rather than drift boats don't belong anywhere on the system - CDUN) and stop insulting the rest of us on this board.

 

[Future Fanatic]

If it's so crowded, stay home, because you are part of the problem.

Hey, by the way... CROWDS are great for the local economies!!! Maximize those resources!!!

 

[iflifish]

But I have to give you a "GROAN" for the second part of your post, Future.

 

[EB WADER]

How about having days set aside without boats,or limiting the amount of boats for any given day,like they do on some of the rivers out west.

 

[MACFLY]

JW,CDUN, others.

The fate of the upper delaware was sealed many years ago when someone decided to tell Sports afield it was the best dry fly river east of the Mississippi. Since then the river has become consistently crowded. No one would deny your frustration with disrespectful fisherman but you go beyond that with your comments so it is difficult for anyone to sympathize with you. Your comments show that your real feelings are nothing more than childish rants from complaining brats. The comments about real fisherman are ridiculous. You can complain all you like but believe it when I tell you it is not going to change and will likely get worse. The only thing preventing all out Chaos on this river is the lack of attention being paid to make it a true tailwater fishery. If that were to happen you might as well move to Patagonia since thats the only place you will find unspoiled fishing. Every fisherman with johnboat will be on that stream if that ever happens. A piece of advice. Start lobbying now for some reasonable regulations on number of boats that can access the river and you might have better success. Keep up your crying on the boards and it will win you nothing except what you are getting. Leave the neophyte fisherman alone since you were one yourself at some point. Stop posting on this board and go fishing since you live so close to the river.

Have a nice weekend!!!!:applaudit