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The future of LL salmon in the neversink

Catskill Mountain Man

Catskill Mountain Man

Explore, and implore to explore
Sup guys

Salmon in the Neversink and a 20" brookie are the mythical beasts of the Catskills; but I want to focus on Neversink salmon.

Anyone up to date on the subject knows that they aren't doing too well because of the decline in smelt population. Should they even be stocked there anymore? Maybe stop stocking them and support nice lake runs of browns/rainbows/brookies in their place.

The upper Neversink will become more open to the public in the future and I believe this is a critical time to make a decision on how to protect certain fish species (hopefully brookies).

The salmon's future is bleak and stream fishing opportunities for them have basically dried up. Maybe a different approach should be taken to enhance the upper neversink's experience.

I'm sure whatever population of salmon sill exist stresses the trout population.

Also the upper neversink is the most infertile bigger river I've ever seen. It's difficult to find sediment between the cobble even.. I wonder if this fact would affect any decision made.
 
I'm a landlocked fan and my knee jerk reaction is to keep stocking. They are always a bonus species and I don't think they harm the brookies.

Rainbows/browns? There are other places to fish for those and only a few for LLS. Plus, if the forage is down for LLS why would another mid-level salmonid be any better?

LLS have had a hard time in NYS. Three years ago they exploded in the Lake O and Finger Lakes tribs which raised hopes that their long slide was over. Haven't seen many since then.

BTW, the Neversink has never been much of a LLS stream. The fall run is in late October and the season closes Oct 15. They follow the spring smelt run, but without smelt that is over. Smelt vanished in the Fingers too and ruined it for the wading/shore based angler as well.

Speaking of forage, NYS is trying to reintroduce ciscoes to Lake O and the Fingers - the native forage species and original target of the native (and now extinct) salmon. Smelt, alewives, and of course gobies are introduced species that out competed the native cisoces and sculpins. That is a moot point for the Neversink Reservoir which didn't exist back then.
 
CMM- This post makes no sense. Its obvious you care....but I'm still not sure if this post is about brookies or salmon despite the fact you say lets focus on LL salmon. I also don't know what we are supposed to do to help either species, since you've proposed nothing. So- what are we going to do to fix this post, and more importantly, save the Neversink watershed LL salmon (brookies)?
 
What makes you think the Upper Neversink will open up? I doubt the clubs will loosen their hold. You can hike a few miles of treacherous terrain to fish the 100 yards of upper NS just above the reservoir if you like. As far as I know that's it for open water until the headwaters. It is a most beautiful section of the Catskills for sure. One day I'll do the bushwacking trek from Neversink to the Beaverkill Valley.
 
The old 4H pines camp ground section of the neversink is in the process (or already) of being opened to the public. When I heard about it I went there and fished it. Never saw any "no trespassing" signs. Very very infertile river, probably the most infertile in the catskills. The only fish I saw was a struggling, flopping brookie in a very shallow and long riffle (basically wet rocks). I was able to pick it up by hand and get him into the main river.

Although I've heard serious fishing stories that make me want to go back. One story was there were "giant" browns stacked on top of one another and feeding like crazy to dries all day (that came from a group of like veterans or some organization that went up to fish). Large brookies and rainbows and whispers of atlantics draw me to go back... Really an awesome place that the public deserves to experience. Although, the water is super clear (clearest water I've ever seen), it's legit gin clear with no blue or green tint hinting to copper or zinc mineral deposits as the rondout and beaverkill get. I did not see one fish or rise or shadow darting in pools.... nothing. That flopping brookie was the only fish seen in the whole 3 hour stop. (we bounce from river to river and clean our gear or plan it around didymo I.E didymo free streams are fished first)

These are pictures from that beautiful section of river.. And yes I fish and walk barefoot in certain circumstances at certain temperatures if I know I can

29306_394897902219_7802197_n.jpg

29306_394898132219_2435454_n.jpg
 
Camp Pines has been open a few years- basically the only open water above the reservoir on the main stem. Absolutely crystal clear water. I haven't had good fishing there, but have only tried it when everything else was dead. Leonard Wright wrote a good book on the Neversink. It is interesting water, but in my long experience the rumors of private or recently opened water are always more glamorous than the facts.

It does look infertile, but at one time it was swarming with native brookies. However, they were on the small side. And my view is that the salmon fishing is tough for reasons mentioned earlier. Not many fish, season closed when main run occurs. That said, all it takes is one to have a good day. This is similar to all sorts of trib situations like the lower Delaware Tribs. Lehigh R tribs, and small tribs to nearly any reservoir that holds trout in NY, PA, and NJ. Some large trout will leave any reservoir or major river, but being there the right day at the right spot is tough. However, large fish are caught - it either takes a lot of luck , a lot of work, or both.
 
Jeff,

Like you, I find it difficult to wander off to these types of spots during prime time in april/may, which is often why exploratory trips don't always pan out great the first time. I've seen a few pictures of huge browns that people caught on that stretch while fishing it in late april/may and they were definitely lake fish since they had that silver look to them and were not your average looking brown trout. Salmon wise, isnt the season for when they could run anytime between may and september/october? Atlantics run during a very long period in Canada so I kind of figured the same would stand true for the landlocks in the res, but I'd be curious to know if you know more since I know you have mentioned you targeted them upstate in the adirondacks in the past.
 
So all bullshit aside, this has been boiling in my head for a few days.

Since the salmon are stocked in the resivor, I would imagine that the fish dont develop a specific imprinted home stream. Being that, the fish would also try to ascend other tributaries to spawn. Which means a smaller percentage of LLAS would be ascending the Neversink river.

IF the DEC initated a stocking program on the Mainstem above the resivoir, we might actually have a decent run of salmon worth targeting in specific. With the Camp Pines access open now, the state can now stock salmon in public waters.

I say we make Gov. Cuomo resign and put me incharge of NYS. I promise free guns for all republicans and salmon in the Neversink for JeffK and CMM.
 
Trout Guy said:
So all bullshit aside, this has been boiling in my head for a few days.

Since the salmon are stocked in the resivor, I would imagine that the fish dont develop a specific imprinted home stream. Being that, the fish would also try to ascend other tributaries to spawn. Which means a smaller percentage of LLAS would be ascending the Neversink river.

IF the DEC initated a stocking program on the Mainstem above the resivoir, we might actually have a decent run of salmon worth targeting in specific. With the Camp Pines access open now, the state can now stock salmon in public waters.

I say we make Gov. Cuomo resign and put me incharge of NYS. I promise free guns for all republicans and salmon in the Neversink for JeffK and CMM.
Click to expand...

Great break down of a possible plan. I never even thought of other tribs to the resivor; and weather the salmon know to ascend the neversink as we would like them to, since they're just stocked in the resivor and not the stream. Stocking Atlantics in the sink could make a self sustainable breeding population that we can fish for actively. Although there's supposedly a big problem with the smelt population in the res and smelt are apparently a big source of food for Atlantics. As they like to chase the smelt into river mouths.

But do we want Atlantics in the stream? You gotta think of the brookies, that stream was theirs to begin with. Although catching a fat atlantic in that stream on a big ugly dry would be an other worldly experience...

Ohhh the decisions.. I wonder about the future of that stream. It's easily the prettiest stream in the catskills

Off topic:

BTW I love the right to own a gun but I feel very uncomfortable around them. A tool is a tool in my eyes. That tool only has one purpose. So I avoid them. Most of my acquaintances who own guns are complete irresponsible retards and even when the responsible gun owners I know show me a gun I don't pick it up. I highly respect the right to own one though. I believe it's a core foundation of this country. In a time of crisis be it my own or this country's I would use one; and I know I'm a good shot with BB guns.

As soon as someone breaks out a gun, especially while drinking I say goodbye or in a responsible situation I remove myself for a time. Even if it's a legitimate showcase of the weapon I try to slink away. If its an old rifle or historical thing I'll gawk over it cause I'm a history guy. Like an old rifle on the wall that someone takes down to show people.
 
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I don't even like to look at bb guns...unless there are bears afoot.

Shouldn't there be LLs in the tribs before Oct. 15th?? Where I fish in Maine you can start catching them in late August with the peak usually hitting in mid September.

p.s. @dcabarle can I use this as my avatar??
 
Sea run Atlantics start coming in the late spring, spawn in roughly November, and many stay until the following spring. However, they exhibit a number of patterns (like some show up in the fall) which is postulated to help spawning success since if the weather is bad for any one pattern it may still be OK for others. Landlocked salmon seem to do all sorts of things. In the Salmon R some come in the late spring and stay through the fall in a good year, but not many good years IMHO. In the Finger Lakes they run up in October, stay a few days to spawn, and then head back. The Finger Lake tribs are small and the fish usually need a push of water to come in and the run can be more closely timed with a good water level. In droughts very few come in. I think the Neversink fish act more like the Finger lake fish, but I'm not sure since I haven't fished there enough. The NYS landlockeds come from the Clear lake hatchery in the Adirondacks, so they probably have some similar behaviors.

BTW, LLS have had a hard time in NYS with good and bad years. Many, many theories. Sometimes they back breed some other stock because with one hatchery and not all that many fish inbreeding can be a problem. The state has also tried different stocking techniques. In the Fingers float stocking in the lake from a boat to spread them out so that predators don't gang up on pods of smolts seems to work best, but I think the jury is still out because after a good year or two the fishing has been so-so. Even when stocked in the lake they find a way back to the tribs in the Fingers. And the smelt aren't the whole story. LLS do fine in Skaneatles Lakes which is so oligotrophic it doesn't support smelt or alewives. Of course without a big forage base the fish don't get as large.
 
JeffK

I talked with the state about Camp Pines a couple of years ago and they had said it wouldn't be open. Are there
any DEC signs there or anything saying fishing is allowed ?
 
A few years back one of my TU chapter buddies talked with the site manager and she sent maps and where to park. It certainly doesn't have official parking lots and is not marked - so it is probably not officially open, but I don't think they keep you out either.
 
When I tried to find the 4H pines section (2-3 years ago) with my father; we blew right past it and almost went home after having a tough time finding it. We fished multiple (and diymo free) streams and we we're getting tired. The access is great though. Walk past the chain and you're right on some wonderful water.

There's a very small pull off before you hit frost valley coming from Rt 17 (the town not the ymca). Theres a very small and worn sign saying "4H pines" thats where we parked and got 0 hassle. Its closeish to where the east and west branch of the sink meet. Which by the way is a real beautiful junction.

Heres a picture of the junction

Confluence_of_east_and_west_branches_of_Neversink_River.jpg

Man I wish THAT was public. Fish the east branch then turn around and fish the west branch to see what's a better option for that day...lol
 
I'll google maps the approximate location of the 4H and post it soon.

For you people who will call spot burning I am a man of the people. I want to use this fourm to hopefully see input from other users who will go. It'll allow me to gather more information about the stream and when/how to fish it.
 
You'll see this bridge... keep going but know it's coming up soon

https://www.google.com/maps/preview...e+Road!5m2!1sAXeKHreJ2ln5VpJn-FTb9w!2e0&fid=5

Here is the chain where I parked. Google maps changed their format around so I hope I did this right, you can see the stream in the back round.

https://www.google.com/maps/preview...e+Road!5m2!1sYxD-ceFYZ9SkbeBfziO2wQ!2e0&fid=5

This stream has the most bleach white rocks I've personally ever seen and they seriously shine in the daylight and the water is gin clear. There is no blue tint whatsoever and I've always wondered why as neighboring watersheds (rondout and beaverkill) have significant blue hues especially in deep pools. I assumed the mountains were rich in zinc and copper

If you see this and you go there to fish, especially for atlantics, please tell us how you did
 
There is a NYS DEC state forest marker visible from the road and a bunch of posted signs that mark the SW border of the easement that butt up against of the farm. There is gravel parking access they made, equiped with Dydimo awareness signs and all. Shitty water for fishing though..


On another note,

I'm not suprised that Neff's most famous liberal hippie wanna be's are afraid of guns.. Being an avid firearm collector and enthieusist, I am disgusted with the hate towards firearms that I see today. Guns are only dangerous in irresponsible hands. There's no need to be afraid of guns alone, It's the irresponsible person weilding the firearm who should be blamed!

A gun has no conscience and cannot set it self off, it needs an exterior force to pull the trigger. End of story..
 
Trout Guy said:
There is a NYS DEC state forest marker visible from the road and a bunch of posted signs that mark the SW border of the easement that butt up against of the farm. There is gravel parking access they made, equiped with Dydimo awareness signs and all. Shitty water for fishing though..


On another note,

I'm not suprised that Neff's most famous liberal hippie wanna be's are afraid of guns.. Being an avid firearm collector and enthieusist, I am disgusted with the hate towards firearms that I see today. Guns are only dangerous in irresponsible hands. There's no need to be afraid of guns alone, It's the irresponsible person weilding the firearm who should be blamed!

A gun has no conscience and cannot set it self off, it needs an exterior force to pull the trigger. End of story..
Click to expand...

Accidents do happen and why be near one when you have a choice not to.
 
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