Spilled heating oil from High Bridge house enters South Branch of the Raritan River

[NJDrew]

Anyone see this yet?

HIGH BRIDGE — A fuel oil spill from a McDonald Street house that polluted the South Branch of the Raritan River here is being investigated by the state Department of Environmental Protection.Clean-up crews remain on the scene today.
Borough resident Donna Hermann said "while I was there photographing the site yesterday the smell of oil was extremely heavy in the air and left a taste in my mouth for hours. The odor is not as strong today, due to their efforts."

A heating oil tank from a single-family home near Union Forge Park spilled oil late Thursday afternoon, said DEP spokesman Larry Ragonese.

The oil travelled about a quarter-mile, into a stream, the river and the storm sewer system.
“I don’t think we know how much was in the heating oil tank,” Ragonese said. Cause of the spill is under investigation, he added.
The DEP assisted the Hunterdon County Health Department and others in placing a boom and pads in the river to contain the oil, Ragonese said.
Last night, a more-permanent boom was placed in the river so the oil would not escape, he said.


High Bridge Police Department is monitoring traffic in the area.
DEP officials are “working on clean up right now,” he said.
“I think it’s under control now,” said Ragonese. “It’s just a matter of getting it cleaned up and getting the oil out of the river.”
Ragonese said he expects the clean up to be completed this weekend. He did not have information on the property owner.

http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-democrat/index.ssf/2010/10/post_187.html

 

[Trouser Trout]

sounds like it is well under control, if the source is a residential inground oil tank it can't be catastrophic, most underground residential tanks are 550 gallons, and are rarely filled above 475 gallons.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Ban the heating of homes with oil until you can prove to me there is NO RISK!

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Not a problem as the spill was well under 500 gallons over a period of time into a fairly large river. A buddy stopped down and couldn't see any sheen even on the river or on the boom they had across it. It takes more than a few hundred gallons of oil to do much damage when dispersed like that. Unlike that same amount in your drinking water ala hydro fracing...

 

[Future Fanatic]

Not a problem as the spill was well under 500 gallons over a period of time into a fairly large river.

It takes more than a few hundred gallons of oil to do much damage when dispersed like that. Unlike that same amount in your drinking water ala hydro fracing...

Are those "official" opinions?

What is the level of heating oil (ppm, let's say) that IS a problem when spilled?

And what do you base that last statement on? Could you give us a comparison of 500 gallons of heating oil and 500 gallons of frack water in drinking water?

 

[dcabarle]

Are those "official" opinions?

What is the level of heating oil (ppm, let's say) that IS a problem when spilled?

And what do you base that last statement on? Could you give us a comparison of 500 gallons of heating oil and 500 gallons of frack water in drinking water?

I've been reading these threads with an open mind and I have to say... As much as I hate to see the destruction of my home away from home, FF makes 100% perfect sense to me.

This is not to say that I don't emotionally feel the way all of you do regarding the fracking situation but logically, Future Fanatic is not flawed at all. He certainly gives great analogies of another side of the story. It seems that most of you don't want to hear it though. Hey, I definetely understand why! I don't want to hear it either but let's face the facts, He makes a great argument (without calling anyone names) and in my opinion, he's right.

A few years ago when the D flooded into Hancock, I made a statement to the effect of, "who cares". Of course I didn't mean it the way it sounded. What I really meant was, "Gee, that's too bad, now on with my own life, I have my own shit to worry about" - NEXT... but if there was no river running through Hancock, nobody would even know that Hancock exists. Let's say a fire ripped through the riverless town. You would see a blurb of it on the 6pm news as you're sitting home eating your dinner, maybe you would pay attention, maybe you wouldn't but you're not going to be packing your bags to go help some local who's barn just burn to the ground. I believe one of the arguments is that not one of the people here ran up to Hancock to help out the locals who welcome us with open arms.

I only mention this last paragraph because if there was no river running through Hancock, not one of you would even know what a fracking well is.

 

[Trouser Trout]

The only flaw i find in FF's opinions are that he excuses the practice of fracking by citing examples of other environmentally unsound practices. ie, because we have catastrophic oil spills that makes it OK to pollute during natural gas exploration. that being said I do not know enough about gas exploration to condemn or condone the presnt manner in which it is conducted, and even where catastrphic oil oil spills take place the damage to wildlife is mostly temporary.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

I only mention this last paragraph because if there was no river running through Hancock, not one of you would even know what a fracking well is.

Speak for yourself. We take calls every month from drilling companies trying to sign up our hunting lands in Potter county, PA. As for FF, I was just busting chops and I'm sure he knows it. The SBR oil spill was a non-issue. Even if a full 500 gallons spilled it would be no big deal. But can we say the same for hydro fracing when millions of gallons of chemical laden water is forced down each well and only approx. 30% of that mixture is recaptured? Remember, the pro drillers are telling us that none of those chemicals will find their way into our drinking water. Forget trout for a moment, we can't live very long without drinking water. But not to worry, after they poison your well, they'll make sure they truck you fresh water forever more so that's a good deal, right?:smiley-sniffer:

 

[Joe D]

Water is the greatest commodity. All the gas, oil, coal, or whatever else cannot make up the value of clean drinking water. According to the World Health Organization, contaminated water is the number one health threat in the world, killing more people than AIDS, cancer, contagious disease and war. This includes all forms of contaminants. When the water is gone you can't drink gas or oil in its place.

It's not about gas, but about risking the little clean water that there is. The gas companies need to find different technologies to extract natural gas that do not use clean water or threaten clean water supplies.

The financial world understands the value of water. The Dow Jones US Water Index has been on a steady climb for the past ten years. Natural gas, not as good an investment. When we are out of gas & oil we will not die, we will come up with something else. When we no longer have clean water we will die.

There is no more fresh water on this planet than there was a million years ago and what little clean fresh water we have left needs to be protected. We can come up with alternative energy sources but there is no substitute for water.

 

[golden beetle]

The only flaw i find in FF's opinions are that he excuses the practice of fracking by citing examples of other environmentally unsound practices. ie, because we have catastrophic oil spills that makes it OK to pollute during natural gas exploration. that being said I do not know enough about gas exploration to condemn or condone the presnt manner in which it is conducted, and even where catastrphic oil oil spills take place the damage to wildlife is mostly temporary.

TT, let's both be honest. Neither of us know all that much about this issue.

So why would I be against fracing in the Catskills?

Well, before I answer that, let me also admit that I know very little about just about every other issue (the war in Iraq, tax policy, etc). But, for some reason, I manage to have opinions about these other issues about which I also know sooooo little.

Fracing, to me, is like a chess move. If it is made, it will have consequences. It is hard to predict what those consequences will be, but for me, I believe that the political position that "the Catskills are special and deserve environmental protection" is at stake.

It is like a chess game. There are certain moves that, if made, will weaken your overall position.

FF argues that it is irrational to view the Catskills as special. I'd argue the opposite.

And, I'd further argue that your ignorance (and my ignorance) of how things will ultimately play out is largely irrelevant. I am willing to change my position on the issue if the data suggests I am wrong.

 

[dcabarle]

I've been doing a little youtube research and found that the fracking thing doesn't look too good.



Also found the same on coal mining...


There are tons of these videos.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Burning fossil fuels is like walking a tightrope. We need the energy and on that we all agree, so we look for the least damaging ways to get at it. Don't know about you all, but I'm not yet ready to give up my gas burning truck and my oil burning house just yet...so I live with the self-imposed hypocrisy. At least on some level...

 

[golden beetle]

Burning fossil fuels is like walking a tightrope. We need the energy and on that we all agree, so we look for the least damaging ways to get at it. Don't know about you all, but I'm not yet ready to give up my gas burning truck and my oil burning house just yet...so I live with the self-imposed hypocrisy. At least on some level...

I'm not sure you're a hypocrite at all.

I allow shitting and pissing in the bathroom, but not anywhere else in my house.

So, just because you allow certain activities to occur in one place, it does not follow that you should allow them to occur in all other places.

Same goes for drilling as for shitting and pissing.

---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 PM ----------

Ban the heating of homes with oil until you can prove to me there is NO RISK!

The fact that there is risk is irrelevant to the analysis, unless therea are realistic alternatives to "heating of homes with oil." If there are no viable alternatives, we must allow it. I think EVERYONE would agree on that.

Go back 200 years, and everybody heated their homes with FIRE. Nowadays, we don't do that. And none of us would complain if fireplaces were banned, say, in NYC, because the potential harms outweigh the benefits (e.g., citywide fires). Since there is an alternative to FIRE, we can ban the use of fire. Nowadays, entire cities aren't burning down since we stopped using fire extensively in urban households (see the Chicago fire from about 100 years ago).

Are there alternatives to drilling in the Catskills? Certainly.

So let's stop it, or minimize it.

 

[Future Fanatic]

I've been doing a little youtube research and found that the fracking thing doesn't look too good.

There are tons of these videos.

Awww... you TOO?!

Dunkard Creek--- Determined to be discharges from a coal mine, increasing salinity in the stream, making it a wonerful place for golden algae to live ... NOT Fracking related.

Dimmock water wells--- crappy water clarity and methane determined by PA DEP to be gas migration into the water wells due to improperly cased wells. NOT Fracking related.

Coal mining to ensure we have enough electricity to post here--- well that's all true.

Let's see if I get a "thanks" like you did...

 

[Trouser Trout]

The fact that there is risk is irrelevant to the analysis, unless therea are realistic alternatives to "heating of homes with oil." If there are no viable alternatives, we must allow it. I think EVERYONE would agree on that.

Go back 200 years, and everybody heated their homes with FIRE. Nowadays, we don't do that. And none of us would complain if fireplaces were banned, say, in NYC, because the potential harms outweigh the benefits (e.g., citywide fires). Since there is an alternative to FIRE, we can ban the use of fire. Nowadays, entire cities aren't burning down since we stopped using fire extensively in urban households (see the Chicago fire from about 100 years ago).

Are there alternatives to drilling in the Catskills? Certainly.

So let's stop it, or minimize it.[/QUOTE]

Alright GB.....back off from the computer....put the mouse down......call it a night.....

 

[golden beetle]

Whatever you say, TT.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Burning fossil fuels is like walking a tightrope. We need the energy and on that we all agree, so we look for the least damaging ways to get at it. Don't know about you all, but I'm not yet ready to give up my gas burning truck and my oil burning house just yet...so I live with the self-imposed hypocrisy. At least on some level...

I'll pick on you(sort of) since you were brave enough to be honest...

Because you don't want to live like the Amish, because you made the economic decision to live where you do and how you do, you've made the decision that the economic/lifestyle advantages you enjoy outweigh the environmental damage you are willing to inflict upon the world. To return to the nearly played out analogy of the vehicle only, you are a smart guy, you KNOW the toxins that exit the tailpipe contribute to the premature deaths of thousands each year, you KNOW that by driving that truck, that you risk killing or maiming others or yourself or members of your family, you also know that leaks and improper disposal of fluids neccessary for the operation of your vehicle are a MAJOR threat to groundwater and waterways. But you operate that vehicle anyway.

That said, I don't believe that you or anyone here, gets in their vehicle WANTING all that damage to occur. One buys vehicles that get better gas mileage, properly maintains the vehicle, Drives safely, obeys traffic laws, buckles a seat belt, uses child safety seats... in other words, manage the risk. In fact, the government REGULATES the activity. We don't "over react" and ban their use, even though they KILL over thirty thousand Americans every year.

What irks me, is that some are fine with banning an activity that, although having some risks (accidents), has been safely utilized for quite some time(1 million fracked wells in the US over 60 years), yet they engage in dangerous activities (to the environment) because they are willing to accept THOSE risks because it allows them to maintain their lifestyle.

Any of you calling for a ban on all oil drilling due to the BP FIASCO? Did you call for its ban due to the Exxon Valdez? Have you called for the ban of coal mining as mountains are flattened and valleys filled in? (Wasn't it TU that found 2000 miles of streams affected by that?) How about Nuclear energy creating centuries of deadly waste? What are the "possible risks" of a nuclear plant "accident"? Before posters chime in with how invalid an argument it is to point to other problems to justify gas drilling.... I ask, is it "justified" to point to engaging in environmentally damaging activities one has based ones economic life on as "necessary" while saying gas drilling is NOT. If yes, I pose that to MANY landowners in PA and NY a gas drilling lease is neccessary for them to maintain their lifestyle. Why should they be treated differently than those willing to engage in other "risky" activities?

I read, "not in the Catskills". Why not? Because YOU think it is special? And what if WV or PA think their lands are special? Every gas producing state? The coal producing states? The oil producing states? I'd venture a guess that EVERYONE thinks their area is special. You don't give a crap about THOSE places as long as your gas tank is full, your house is warm and the lights turn on? Of course my feeling on the matter is if you think it is special, BUY IT. That's what NYC is doing with the lands around the reservoirs. If not privately, the State or Federal government. Make the lands you hold dear state or national parks. Ban drilling in "selected places"? You'd pay back the very people who have bought and paid taxes on land that you've enjoyed the fruits of for decades by telling them that they can't make their own economic decisions dealing with mineral extraction using a process that has proven to be safe across the country for decades ? Because YOU think THEIR land is somehow special to YOU? Classic...use their money (what they paid and what they pay in taxes) to create a playground for people outside the area to use for free...

NO landowner contemplating a lease wants harm to come. NYS will have the STRICTEST laws in the nation. Regulate the hell out of it... just like every other industrial process should be....

Hey Rusty, how many trout streams have been lost forever due to Fracking? How many aquifers due to fracking are we unable to drink from? How many people have died due to frack water?

 

[dcabarle]

Awww... you TOO?!

Dunkard Creek--- Determined to be discharges from a coal mine, increasing salinity in the stream, making it a wonerful place for golden algae to live ... NOT Fracking related.

Dimmock water wells--- crappy water clarity and methane determined by PA DEP to be gas migration into the water wells due to improperly cased wells. NOT Fracking related.

Coal mining to ensure we have enough electricity to post here--- well that's all true.

Let's see if I get a "thanks" like you did...

I gave yah a thanks! I can always count on you to debunk any misconceptions... There's a sucker born every day, today is my day I guess.

 

[Future Fanatic]

I gave yah a thanks! I can always count on you to debunk any misconceptions... There's a sucker born every day, today is my day I guess.

I'll be the first to admit (well, maybe the second or third) that you could find a bunch of videos showing the wholly true ugly side of gas drilling. It is an industrial practice that CERTAINLY has downsides. If I ever sign a lease or if a neighbor does, I do NOT look forward to the few months of truck traffic and noise coming from the well pad. I've said before and here again, accidents happen, also. Given my state will have the strictest regulations in the nation, I've faith that if gas extraction is allowed ANYWHERE in the nation, it will be done most safely here.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

FF - first let me clear up one misconception you have about TU and Marcellus Shale fracing. TU has not called for a ban, but for caution and further study. And I agree with that position. You know I have written here on NEFF on various threads that I am not personally against all drilling, just that I want to see the maximum protections in place at each site, something I strongly believe is still lacking at a large # of sites.
Those living in the shale region certainly have rights to sell those mineral rights for development just as those who are either against drilling or want further protections have the right to voice those opinions. If this particular shale formation did not require hydro fracing, all of this would be a non-issue. If these were more like surface drilling wells for oil, the environmental downside would be more than exceptable to the masses.

You ask in very small type that my aging eyes struggled with how many trout streams have been destroyed by fracing and the answer is more than zero. I hear through staff that there have been numerous problems in CO and WY to name a few. This is all very new here in the East, but you can rest assured that there will be big problems on some streams if drilling goes as quickly as the extraction industry wants it to go. I have seen firsthand how some of the past coal mines poisoned Kettle Creek and several of its tributaries. The work that TU did in that watershed had such a positive impact that we now have a staff of 4 or 5 working on similar projects throughout the entire western Susquehanna drainage. Funding has continued to flow into those projects, proof positive of the benefits to that work. But from what I know, these are sub surface mines and not top stripping mines. I visited 3 sites on a staff retreat to see 3 different solutions to the same problem, poisonous leachate from the mines killing all aquatic life and ruining drinking water supplies for those locals in the area.

The chapter that is still unwritten is if an organization like TU will one day hire remediation experts to "fix" problems left behind by hydro fracing in the Marcellus Shale formations. And neither you nor I know the answer to that just yet.