Releases Part 2

[Big_Spinner]

Hi guys,

I thought you all would like to see the NYC decision document from OST calculations that helps NYC make the decision as to which Table we are in.



It is interesting that there is over 1000 cfs available but the most a table uses is 750. One could make an argument for another table that would utilize more of the available water now. This is a more difficult decision from a water quantity view.

If you maintain much more than 500 cfs for a sustained part of June/July, you will start to run out of the cold, clear water in the bottom of the reservoir.

What do you all say; take a chance and release more now and maybe be discolored and warm through the end of August and September, or try to keep it at 500 through the whole summer, into September?

The other consequence of higher releases now is that the chance of entering into a lower release table is more likely.

There are many different possible combinations of release that still could be tested to see what may work best.

Just for perspective, 500 cfs is about 350 million gallons released in a day. 350 mgd is about 30% of what NYC uses in a typical summer day. They are at about one billion gallons a day.

The thermal release program that we tried to get approved was a bit of a compromise. Release more water to help keep the peak temperatures at Lordville below 75 degrees through the summer. It was considered, but not yet approved.

Food for Thought!!

Jim

 

[flyI4]

Good questions raised here Jim. Any plan that adjusts flow on a day to day basis in an attempt to keep water temps reasonable down stream is bound to draw scrutiny. Its difficult to imagine how this sort of plan could be approved- let alone properly executed as theoretically planned on paper.

The second issue you raise is also interesting and one that often gets left out of the discussion- the issue of clean water vs. dirty water. The 500cfs we have been getting the past few years has caused for the turnover impact to become more extreme in the fall and by september the west branch has that cement color to it. Personally, I have found the dirty water to actually produce good fishing- but mostly subsurface. Its not a bad thing to have dirty water come fall when the big browns are on the prowl anyway and streamer fishing is effective. Add some color and those fish are a lot easier to entice.

There are pros and cons with every plan- and the current plan is major improvement from some years I can remember 10-15 years back. I do miss those days when it would run up to 1200 cfs for a few days though and the main stem would fish well once the fish became acclimated to the change in flow/temps. These yo yo flows also helped to move around the fish so everyone didn't have their pets that now stay put at certain locations for the entire summer with flows staying the same for 2 months and little incentive to leave with 50 degree water temps

 

[Big_Spinner]

Here is the original with the document imbedded in it!!

Hi guys,

I thought you all would like to see the NYC decision document from OST calculations that helps NYC make the decision as to which Table we are in.



It is interesting that there is over 1000 cfs available but the most a table uses is 750. One could make an argument for another table that would utilize more of the available water now. This is a more difficult decision from a water quantity view.

If you maintain much more than 500 cfs for a sustained part of June/July, you will start to run out of the cold, clear water in the bottom of the reservoir.

What do you all say; take a chance and release more now and maybe be discolored and warm through the end of August and September, or try to keep it at 500 through the whole summer, into September?

The other consequence of higher releases now is that the chance of entering into a lower release table is more likely.

There are many different possible combinations of release that still could be tested to see what may work best.

Just for perspective, 500 cfs is about 350 million gallons released in a day. 350 mgd is about 30% of what NYC uses in a typical summer day. They are at about one billion gallons a day.

The thermal release program that we tried to get approved was a bit of a compromise. Release more water to help keep the peak temperatures at Lordville below 75 degrees through the summer. It was considered, but not yet approved.

Food for Thought!!

Jim

 

[JOE.T]

Hi guys,

I thought you all would like to see the NYC decision document from OST calculations that helps NYC make the decision as to which Table we are in.



It is interesting that there is over 1000 cfs available but the most a table uses is 750. One could make an argument for another table that would utilize more of the available water now. This is a more difficult decision from a water quantity view.

If you maintain much more than 500 cfs for a sustained part of June/July, you will start to run out of the cold, clear water in the bottom of the reservoir.

What do you all say; take a chance and release more now and maybe be discolored and warm through the end of August and September, or try to keep it at 500 through the whole summer, into September?

The other consequence of higher releases now is that the chance of entering into a lower release table is more likely.

There are many different possible combinations of release that still could be tested to see what may work best.

Just for perspective, 500 cfs is about 350 million gallons released in a day. 350 mgd is about 30% of what NYC uses in a typical summer day. They are at about one billion gallons a day.

The thermal release program that we tried to get approved was a bit of a compromise. Release more water to help keep the peak temperatures at Lordville below 75 degrees through the summer. It was considered, but not yet approved.

Food for Thought!!

Jim

Hi Jim

Why not 325 CFS FROM 6/1-6/14

750 CFS From 6/15 - 8/14

325 CFS 8/15 - 8/31

For some readers -The 325 CFS comes from the Shepard Study done years ago,Norm Mcbride from Region 4 (DEC) also backed up this number I believe. It says that 325 CFS will provide thermal protection for the trout, bank to bank the entire length.

Has the FUDR proposed anything similar to this?

Why did National TU and the FUDR give up thermal protection ?

 

[brachycentrus]

How about 2000 from 4/1 to 6/1
then 500 the rest of the year. Build the filtration plant and take the water out of Croton and the Hudson or the East River for all I give a shit, They dont want to build a filtration plant but want to spend billions aquiring lands around the reservoirs. Screw NYDEP, OST and all the supposed conservation groups that talk a good talk without doing anything concrete. I would venture to say that Jim and Peter have done more work than everyone else combined.
Oh yea, the green slime is now present just in time for the summer sulphers. How much work has been put into iding that shit. Got more lip service last year, but as far as I know, it still has not been id'd or sourced.

 

[Trout Nazi]

How about 2000 from 4/1 to 6/1
then 500 the rest of the year. Build the filtration plant and take the water out of Croton and the Hudson or the East River for all I give a shit, They dont want to build a filtration plant but want to spend billions aquiring lands around the reservoirs. Screw NYDEP, OST and all the supposed conservation groups that talk a good talk without doing anything concrete. I would venture to say that Jim and Peter have done more work than everyone else combined.
Oh yea, the green slime is now present just in time for the summer sulphers. How much work has been put into iding that shit. Got more lip service last year, but as far as I know, it still has not been id'd or sourced.

You have to think practically, whey would anyone ID this? Because it annoys a bunch of fisherman, because it gets caught on their lines and flies? Its summer, its bright, its warm. All manner of weeds are going to grow in water.

 

[brachycentrus]

You have to think practically, whey would anyone ID this? Because it annoys a bunch of fisherman, because it gets caught on their lines and flies? Its summer, its bright, its warm. All manner of weeds are going to grow in water.

Obviously. either you dont fish up there or havent for very long. This green slime is a relatively new event. It used to occur when the reservoirs hit roughly the 30% level now its here when full so dont say it isnt a problem. It's a new problem on par with all the invasives that are up and down the river. This system is going downhill. You wouldnt know if youve only been up here fishing for 5 years or so.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

It's a new problem on par with all the invasives that are up and down the river.

You mean like the rainbows and browns?

You know I love this river system, but we have to remember that the trout we so love don't belong either.....regardless of how amazing they are to fish for. It's just one of the many layers complicating a tailwater fishery. But I do think everyone should keep up the good fight and push for better management of the entire upper D which has implications well beyond trout - native or otherwise - all the way to the Delaware Bay.

 

[MACFLY]

Rusty when will you remove the cannons like dam

 

[Future Fanatic]

I think, to save the river system from invasives, we should ban all watercraft and wade fishermen. They just keep bringing the problems with them...

ANYTHING to save the trout.

 

[thrashers.wheat]

No, keep these shmucks on the D

I think, to save the river system from invasives, we should ban all watercraft and wade fishermen. They just keep bringing the problems with them...

ANYTHING to save the trout.

 

[JOE.T]

How about 2000 from 4/1 to 6/1
then 500 the rest of the year. Build the filtration plant and take the water out of Croton and the Hudson or the East River for all I give a shit, They dont want to build a filtration plant but want to spend billions aquiring lands around the reservoirs. Screw NYDEP, OST and all the supposed conservation groups that talk a good talk without doing anything concrete. I would venture to say that Jim and Peter have done more work than everyone else combined.
Oh yea, the green slime is now present just in time for the summer sulphers. How much work has been put into iding that shit. Got more lip service last year, but as far as I know, it still has not been id'd or sourced.

Jeff it's the 90/10 rule.I actually like your plan more than mine, it'll keep all of huckleberry's off the river (waders) and I'll have every pool to myself to wade!

John (FF) easy for you to say since you don't fish !

They should ban you from this topic.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Obviously. either you dont fish up there or havent for very long. This green slime is a relatively new event. It used to occur when the reservoirs hit roughly the 30% level now its here when full so dont say it isnt a problem. It's a new problem on par with all the invasives that are up and down the river. This system is going downhill. You wouldnt know if youve only been up here fishing for 5 years or so.

Things change over time. There have been a couple of big storms that may have changed the tribuatries and the land around the tributaries going into the reservoirs, and into the rivers themselves. Its not necessarily some indicator of the system going downhill. I've been fishing up there for longer than 5 years, but I like the Big D and lower river better than the West Branch. The asshole quotient is alot lower down there (well, I'm down there so its not too much lower), and the water is alot sexier. And by the time the water gets down there, all the slime has been strained out by all you guys and your knotted leaders.

 

[JOE.T]

Things change over time. There have been a couple of big storms that may have changed the tribuatries and the land around the tributaries going into the reservoirs, and into the rivers themselves. Its not necessarily some indicator of the system going downhill. I've been fishing up there for longer than 5 years, but I like the Big D and lower river better than the West Branch. The asshole quotient is alot lower down there (well, I'm down there so its not too much lower), and the water is alot sexier. And by the time the water gets down there, all the slime has been strained out by all you guys and your knotless leaders.

Only one BIG problem with your theory.

It's to warm, and there aren't many bugs in the summer down on the Main Stem! In fact in many cases you shouldn't even be fishing it if the water is above 70 degrees.

Anyone who has put in thousands of hours over the years knows this.

 

[JOE.T]

Things change over time. There have been a couple of big storms that may have changed the tribuatries and the land around the tributaries going into the reservoirs, and into the rivers themselves. Its not necessarily some indicator of the system going downhill. I've been fishing up there for longer than 5 years, but I like the Big D and lower river better than the West Branch. The asshole quotient is alot lower down there (well, I'm down there so its not too much lower), and the water is alot sexier. And by the time the water gets down there, all the slime has been strained out by all you guys and your knotted leaders.

One more thing, how can you be an American and have NAZI as your name? Tall about ASSHOLE quotient -Traitor.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Only one BIG problem with your theory.

It's to warm, and there aren't many bugs in the summer down on the Main Stem! In fact in many cases you shouldn't even be fishing it if the water is above 70 degrees.

Anyone who has put in thousands of hours over the years knows this.

No flaw in my theory. When it gets warm, I bass fish. Break out the Keitechs, Senkos, and Lucky Craft, fly rod poppers in the evening. There are other fish in the system besides trout, and smallies are just as fun to catch. And its been cool all the way down to Kellams lately, but the bugs have been spotty. I'm assuming all of you experts know this though.

 

[Trout Nazi]

One more thing, how can you be an American and have NAZI as your name? Tall about ASSHOLE quotient -Traitor.

The name was lovingly bestowed upon me by others actually, I didn't make it up myself. After a particular incident where I forced them to march miles into the back-country, refusing to allow them to turn back, and fish "just one more pool", into dark, making them late. I was then accused of being a Trout Nazi.

 

[trico mike]

This is the problem you get when men control the river. Tailwaters are great but fishing is only a by product of the need to supply one of the largest cities in the world with water. Supplying ny with water is the only concern these people have. I find it funny that even the guys trying their best to help the fishery and get proper flows,can't fully agree on a plan.

 

[JOE.T]

No flaw in my theory. When it gets warm, I bass fish. Break out the Keitechs, Senkos, and Lucky Craft, fly rod poppers in the evening. There are other fish in the system besides trout, and smallies are just as fun to catch. And its been cool all the way down to Kellams lately, but the bugs have been spotty. I'm assuming all of you experts know this though.

Oh now it's Bass fishing. Yeah it's great area for smallmouth fishing in the summers to bring the kids.

Tell me what the temps are from Hankins to Calicoon come July and August ??

Actually this is June at calicoon,maybe a little warmer than you thought.Not conducive for Hatches.


USGS Current Conditions for USGS 01427510 DELAWARE RIVER AT CALLICOON NY

 

[Trout Nazi]

Oh now it's Bass fishing. Yeah it's great area for smallmouth fishing in the summers to bring the kids.

Tell me what the temps are from Hankins to Calicoon come July and August ??

Actually this is June at calicoon,maybe a little warmer than you thought.Not conducive for Hatches.


USGS Current Conditions for USGS 01427510 DELAWARE RIVER AT CALLICOON NY

Its always been bass fishing for me, trout came later. You fools are not going to teach me anything about bassin. And its fun for the kids, and the adults with them.

Who said anything about Hankins to Calicoon? I actually like the bass fishing further down better. USGS takes a temp at Lordville and Calicoon, there is a hell of alot of water between there. My point is that while the Joeys and Freds are fighting for elbow space on the West Branch, the big river has been cool to around Kellams. My amateur ass carries a thermometer, I check before I fish.

 

[thrashers.wheat]

Some flies I tied this week in preparation for this weekends fishing. Will be camping at a free public site in Centre County just up a dirt state forest road from the Creek.

Sz18 BWO Para ... didn't photograph any of the quill bodied BWOs but they looked nicer than the superfine-dubbed fly shown here


Hi Viz Slate Drake Para. I've shamelessly ripped Mr Grobert off on this one. Moose fibers as tail. Tri-blend of rabbit dubbing. I only have what I believe to be a dark dun cape but would like to mess around with various dun shades on this one. Chartreuse calf-tail as wing post. This is on a Sz 14 hook, as I don't have any Sz 12 dry fly hooks.

Rusty Spinner Sz 16. Poly wings and white razor foam as wing casing for buoyancy

 

[JOE.T]

Its always been bass fishing for me, trout came later. You fools are not going to teach me anything about bassin. And its fun for the kids, and the adults with them.

Who said anything about Hankins to Calicoon? I actually like the bass fishing further down better. USGS takes a temp at Lordville and Calicoon, there is a hell of alot of water between there. My point is that while the Joeys and Freds are fighting for elbow space on the West Branch, the big river has been cool to around Kellams. My amateur ass carries a thermometer, I check before I fish.

You did DUH -you mentioned Kellams - thats right there isn't it ? Knucklehead

Funny thing is I've been out more times this season than you will get out the next 5 years, and I have only been on the WB 4x this year.The WB branch serves it purpose for one thing with me.

Dorotheas.Look it up.

You obviously are clueless as most Keyboard bass fisherman are.


Have fun

 

[Trout Nazi]

You did DUH -you mentioned Kellams - thats right there isn't it ? Knucklehead

Funny thing is I've been out more times this season than you will get out the next 5 years, and I have only been on the WB 4x this year.The WB branch serves it purpose for one thing with me.

Dorotheas.Look it up.

You obviously are clueless as most Keyboard bass fisherman are.


Have fun

You've been out more times, what do you want, a cookie? What exactly does that prove? You fish more, congratulations. Go back to circle-jerking about flows with your buddies.

 

[JOE.T]

The name was lovingly bestowed upon me by others actually, I didn't make it up myself. After a particular incident where I forced them to march miles into the back-country, refusing to allow them to turn back, and fish "just one more pool", into dark, making them late. I was then accused of being a Trout Nazi.

Oh how cute, did you guys hold hands walking out in the dark? You get a pink star for that.

Freddy just called me in tears after reading that.

Nazis and Terrorist's BTW are the same >both are scumbags.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Oh how cute, did you guys hold hands walking out in the dark? You get a pink star for that.

Freddy just called me in tears after reading that.

Nazis and Terrorist's BTW are the same >both are scumbags.

So your little internet buddy called and you had a laugh? Now that there is some funny shit. So let me get this straight, you guys call each other like high school bitches about shit you read on Internet forums? Your really that gay? Sounds like someone needs to get a life, something else to do when they're not spending 1000's of hours fishing and pretending to be a fishing authority, or the Lorax of the Delaware.

And if my name offends you, good. Go slip and fall in a puddle of aids.

 

[MACFLY]

You 2 boobs knock it off before it gets any uglier.

 

[lightenup]

You 2 boobs knock it off before it gets any uglier.

Nice to see you learned how to spell boob.......and if I may....an excellent use of the word!!!!!

 

[JOE.T]

You've been out more times, what do you want, a cookie? What exactly does that prove? You fish more, congratulations. Go back to circle-jerking about flows with your buddies.

I prefer donuts.

 

[golden beetle]

In the summer, the fish concentrate in the cold sections of stream, right?

Couldn't we manage the fishery best by limiting the summer releases and forcing the fish to congregate upstream?

That would make for excellent fishing.

 

[MACFLY]

In the summer, the fish concentrate in the cold sections of stream, right?

Couldn't we manage the fishery best by limiting the summer releases and forcing the fish to congregate upstream?

That would make for excellent fishing.

This seems wrong