Well, I fished there yesterday. Caught 1, 10" bow, 1, 12" brown, and 2, tiny brookies. Real exiting HUH!!! Here is the deal. This place has the potential to be a terrific little tailwater except the core of so called engineers fiddle f&$#* with the releases so much that the fish dont know where to settle. Or should I say hold and get comfortable. I have never seen anything like it! The water temps are always cold. Yesterday, 15.5C/59.9F. I have fished this place for 15 years and have never seen the temps go above 63f. Also, the release yesterday was 111cfs for most of the day, and it had been fluctuating right around there for about a week. That is why I decided to take a crack at it. Before the rains came yesterday, the core decided to dump water. So they cranked it up a bit. Then the shat hit the fan with a horrendous storm in the afternoon and they decided to open the flood gates and dump 1,010. Trust me. that is a s%^# load of water coming down that stream. So, here is my beef. Like I said, the potential of this place is astounding. The aquatic insect life is as good, if not better, than ANY of the so called good fishing creeks in the commonwealth. The water is ALWAYS clear because it is a bottom release tailwater and the state "know it all's" stock it for the bait and spin guys to creel up all those hatchery monsters even before the bugs show up. Question: why does the usgs have to operate this Beltsville resevior like it is some kind of immenent danger of a huge flood or drought at any given moment? This resourse is abused! More thought should be given to the potential for this place ,period. MY 2 cents.
Give us a try!
Welcome back to the new NEFF. Take a break from Twitter and Facebook. You don't go to Dicks for your fly fishing gear, you go to your local fly fishing store. Enjoy!
Pohopoco enigma
- Thread starter flukey
- Start date
LehighRegular
New member
Flukey
You are 100% correct about the potential of this tailwater fishery. better yet, it could be a wild brook trout fishery if manageed correctly, with some very nice brookies in there.
I have the same views as you about the fishery. THe management is horrendous. Blame that on the PFBC. As for the releases, that is with the Army Corps...not USGS. This waterway is under Dave Arnold's "direction" at the PFBC. One thing that can be done is to get support to change the management of this fishery.
The organization that i'm affiliated with is working on the Lehigh to get some changes done at the FEW Reservoir to benefit the fishery below it. A Study is being completed, that also includes how Beltzville can be operated to benefit the Lehigh fishery. This would be beneficial for the Po fishery as well by limiting the fluctuation of releases and having a higher release during low water periods.
But as for how the stream is managed is under the PFBC. What needs to be done is to put pressure on the PFBC - Dave Arnold and the Commissioners (Norm Gavlick specifically) to tell them they are phucking this fishery up and wasting a great resource.
I have contacted PA TU about it to try to get a local TU chapter on this as a project. Not much effort would need to be put to get management changes, just pressure on the PFBC to do it.
Makes your head spin...doesn't it. Glad you noticed the potential.
Fire away!!
daarnold@state.pa.us
norm@gavlick.biz
You are 100% correct about the potential of this tailwater fishery. better yet, it could be a wild brook trout fishery if manageed correctly, with some very nice brookies in there.
I have the same views as you about the fishery. THe management is horrendous. Blame that on the PFBC. As for the releases, that is with the Army Corps...not USGS. This waterway is under Dave Arnold's "direction" at the PFBC. One thing that can be done is to get support to change the management of this fishery.
The organization that i'm affiliated with is working on the Lehigh to get some changes done at the FEW Reservoir to benefit the fishery below it. A Study is being completed, that also includes how Beltzville can be operated to benefit the Lehigh fishery. This would be beneficial for the Po fishery as well by limiting the fluctuation of releases and having a higher release during low water periods.
But as for how the stream is managed is under the PFBC. What needs to be done is to put pressure on the PFBC - Dave Arnold and the Commissioners (Norm Gavlick specifically) to tell them they are phucking this fishery up and wasting a great resource.
I have contacted PA TU about it to try to get a local TU chapter on this as a project. Not much effort would need to be put to get management changes, just pressure on the PFBC to do it.
Makes your head spin...doesn't it. Glad you noticed the potential.
Fire away!!
daarnold@state.pa.us
norm@gavlick.biz
It seems to me that the so called "WILD WATER RAFTERS" have more input than any one else on the matter. I'am glad to here that the Pohopoco creek is,in fact, included in the study. I am sorry, in my rant, that I did not blame the correct disfunctional operations on the right party. You are correct. The PFBC comission and their party constituants are more concerend about the tax income from Jim thorpe and and ancillary sales for the region than the ecology of the area. What a shame it is! I am not a voter or party constituante. I live in NJ, Thanks for your reply.
Broadheadscreek
Proud Member Of The 10% Club
Leave it to a Jersey guy to spill the beans about a premier trout water in Pa. gladd I have lots of other secret spots to fish. You'll have plenty of company on the stream in the near future..
:smiley-sniffer:LehighRegular
New member
Flukey
I'd fire away...being out of state may say more about it than an resident of PA. Bombs away, I say...
Jeff K - Look at all the great western tailwaters...most are managed in a way to help benefit the fishery. Bighorn for example.
I'd fire away...being out of state may say more about it than an resident of PA. Bombs away, I say...
Jeff K - Look at all the great western tailwaters...most are managed in a way to help benefit the fishery. Bighorn for example.
The tailwaters out west are managed for two things:
Power generation
And
Irrigation for farmers
They don't care about the fish out there either. Don't let them fool you! We are just lucky that the farmers need lots of water during the summer our there.
Take the Beaverhead. It gets a 30 cfs release during the winter. Lots of fish loss occcurs during this period. That river should have at least 400 cfs in it. There are many other examples.
The Madison is managed for hydropower by PPL as are the Missouri River Dams as well.
Power generation
And
Irrigation for farmers
They don't care about the fish out there either. Don't let them fool you! We are just lucky that the farmers need lots of water during the summer our there.
Take the Beaverhead. It gets a 30 cfs release during the winter. Lots of fish loss occcurs during this period. That river should have at least 400 cfs in it. There are many other examples.
The Madison is managed for hydropower by PPL as are the Missouri River Dams as well.
jlajoie
Can I commute to Missoula from here?
You are corrent in that, Aaron!
And, anytime people try to interfere with a waterway....ugh.
I have been having a horrible time fishing on the upper Swan, and haven't been able to figure out why. I finally ran into a forest service employee who let me know that the Fish and Game Dept. out here poisoned the smaller tribs to the swan to get rid of sculpins and minnows that are carrying whirling disease. What happens to the big fish when the small fish go away? No wonder I have only had a couple of dinks that weren't even worth getting the camera for.
Why do they operate it like they do? Because Beltzville Dam's very purpose is FLOOD CONTROL. This week the drainage area got 2.25 inches of rain quite quickly and possibility of a lot more today. I haven't been fishing it for 15 years but I've never really experienced it as messed up like you say. In the stretch below the dam the trout seem to just about always hold under the overhanging laurels and evergreens on the far side of the bank, they can really tuck in there. The fish usually don't seem to be that easy to catch for sure, many wild browns and brookies in there as well as the stocked fish. Small stuff, midges and BWO's I think are they way to go.
The whitewater rafters really have nothing to do with Beltzville, it's FEW and the Lehigh they have taken hostage (and it's DCNR not PFBC that has the money concerns up there and controls the show.) But that is quickly coming to a head, I'm tired of dodging the crazy effin' city people that raft the Lehigh from JT to Bowmanstown and just watched several people I took on a tip there get hit by these bastards. I go to these meetings on the release regime and am flat out getting in the face of these rafting companies to tell them "beware, your days of running roughshod over anyone else trying to enjoy the river are numbered. I'll begin protecting myself from their assault by trying to puncture and sink any raft that comes to close or hits me!" They can have it right in the offical record of the meeting , I don't give a f*ck.
I urge all anglers that fish the Lehigh or are interested in it to support the Lehigh Coldwater Fishery Alliance! (as well as the Lehigh River Stocking Asscociation) The folks involved are fighting very hard for better releases to further benefit the outstanding potential of this growing trout fishery!
Visit www.thelehighriver.org for more information
The whitewater rafters really have nothing to do with Beltzville, it's FEW and the Lehigh they have taken hostage (and it's DCNR not PFBC that has the money concerns up there and controls the show.) But that is quickly coming to a head, I'm tired of dodging the crazy effin' city people that raft the Lehigh from JT to Bowmanstown and just watched several people I took on a tip there get hit by these bastards. I go to these meetings on the release regime and am flat out getting in the face of these rafting companies to tell them "beware, your days of running roughshod over anyone else trying to enjoy the river are numbered. I'll begin protecting myself from their assault by trying to puncture and sink any raft that comes to close or hits me!" They can have it right in the offical record of the meeting , I don't give a f*ck.
I urge all anglers that fish the Lehigh or are interested in it to support the Lehigh Coldwater Fishery Alliance! (as well as the Lehigh River Stocking Asscociation) The folks involved are fighting very hard for better releases to further benefit the outstanding potential of this growing trout fishery!
Visit www.thelehighriver.org for more information
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They dumped that much water because of the rain and the forecasts for more heavy rain. I dont think that if you get 5 inches of rain in the area and a lot of the streams empty into beltzville, the forecast is for more heavy rain they had to dump the water. I am up there every weekend and see how the Po is treated and you are being ridiculos with your rant. They dont usually dump that much water unless it is pretty full and the forecast is for more heavy rain. Could it be managed better sure but my feelings are they do a preety good job. If you said that it should be a regulated area I would agree completely.
OK, it a rant. But, if the core and the PFBC had any insight and looked at
more history, weather forcasts, and kept levels based on that info at a more intellegent level, based on computer models, I think this fishery could be managed at a more fishey comfortable level. Here is a question for ya. Why ,just a few days back, and for a long time, they let the outlet run at a constant 60cfs while the res. is full. Did they think we would be in a drought? And then all of a sudden they open the gates because of imminent flooding? The core does NOT! have to keep this res. full during this stressfull time period. What good does that do? Make the lake prettyier? God forbid that some jimoke has to move the buoys at the bathing beach out a little further! Has anyone on here ever seen this tailwater run at 1,100 cfs before? I have, and let me tell ya, that flow rate will roll over rocks, destroy aquatic insect habitat,cause bank erosion,
and wash fish all the way even over the small dams and right into the Lehigh River, where the water temps are at mortality levels. This management plan, pure and simple stinks. This creek could be a gem if it were properly managed. Shame on those button pusher, high fulletin, think
they are educated, overpaid for sitting on their asses, internet surfing while being paid jackasses just do what they are told to do, by another jackass that could not care less about anything about his own welfare.BTW BROADSHEADCREEK:finger:
I am sorry if I came off a bit strong today is the first day of my losing my job so a little touchy. The weatherman is the only person who gets paid to be wrong in his or her job so predicting the weather is iffy.They have been agumenting the Lehigh in releasing water they release for the rafters so FEW doesnt have to release as much.Yes I have seen the PO so bad that you couldnt fish it for a week thats how high its been but on the whole they do a good job.Brodhead Creek wasnt wrong in what he said you dont have to advertise it quite so much although it is a fairly know stream were just protective of our streams in that the whole world does not need to know about them. Your statement that the Lehigh is hot is way off base the temps are not that high The night time temps have been in the 50s and low 60s so way off base.
I did not say the Lehigh is HOT. what i meant is that the Lehigh cannot support trout as holdovers that get washed into it with these high water
releases. At the point where Pohopoco dumps into the Lehigh, The temp,
are marginal at best. Mortality prevails on any trout, regardless of species,
from that point downstream where Pohocopo enters. Yes, the FEW area
has enough cool water to support fish in these stressful enviorments. However, downstream, at this time of year, mortality prevails. Did you or anybody you know ever catch a trout in the Lehigh river in August?
Broadheadscreek
Proud Member Of The 10% Club
My reply to your thread was by no means derogatory in any way shape or form . Just a light nudge "note the smile after my comment" To not addvertise this stream as there is only a small portion of it that is a tail water it will never amount to a West Branch or any thing out west for that matter as it is what it is a small tail water in some places barley 20' wide.I'm glad you enjoy fishing it and it is by no means my stream but I do how ever enjoy fishing it on occasion when the water temps prevent me from fishing here. When I do go there I'm usually pretty shure I will find ample water to fish and have a successful day. Which I am sure have found as well. If you have concerns as to the flows do as the others have said here go to the meetings get on the agenda and voice your opinion.What I am tying to say I guess is try to keep a small stream like this to yourself as it is a fragile resource. If anyone one here drops me a line I am more than willing to share knowlage of the streams I know I just will not do it on an open forum. And they will vouch for me.
That being said I'm glad that you are comfortable having only 7 or 8 post on this site with giving the finger to someone whom has done no wrong to you and was completely inline. Sorry I tried to help protect a spot that you obviously enjoy fishing. I promise I will never do it agian...
That being said I'm glad that you are comfortable having only 7 or 8 post on this site with giving the finger to someone whom has done no wrong to you and was completely inline. Sorry I tried to help protect a spot that you obviously enjoy fishing. I promise I will never do it agian...
Stressful time? The stream has been fine all season and the Lehigh temps have not been at mortality levels in that area. Fish don't get pushed miles downriver due to high water, only anglers. I think 1100cfs is quite rare for the Pohopoco's release and usually means there is an imminent flooding event. I've seen plenty of times in almost any summer when Beltzville is not full (this ain't the NYC reservoirs.) The management of the ACOE's dam has nothing to do with the PFBC's management of the fishery(stocking and regs.) Learn more about how management practices of the ACOE reservoirs can be changed (for starters, studies have to preclude any proposed changes- which is why there is currently a comprehesive coldwater study being completed now.)
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WRONG! But I'm glad you think that
You are correct about trout fishing it much in August there but that is true of most streams in our tri-state region (it can be done at times, ie. early morning) but the trout haven't died. There are refuge areas right there in the Lehigh they move to as well as into the Pohopoco's coldwater flume. The trout in the Lehigh can and do move quite a bit. And plenty of trout holdover all summer all the way down to Northampton. I suspect you might not actually fish this area all that much in those 15 years. I just had a crew hooking into trout in the Lehighton riffle(below the Turnpike bridge) last weekend.
I have personally caught trout well downstream of there(Palmerton) in mid-July in truly hot summers.
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MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
WoW you are quite a :dickhead: Please let me know if you need me to clarify the emoticon. Perhaps you should stop popping a Cialas and think about what BHC was trying to tell you in a very friendly way...Smile emoticon means light hearted, happy, not to be taken offensively...As always willing to educate the bottom feeders!!!
jamiep
homeward bound
What a prick you are of all the people here on this board you give the finger to one of the nicest guys on this board .
Good work numb nuts
Good luck in the future.
Bamboozle
Smoking & drinking at a creek near you!
As has been already mentioned by others on this thread, the impounded waterways in Pennsylvania are NOT managed with the priority of being cold water fisheries, so you get what you get and it will never change.
The Pohopoco, Tulpehocken, Lehigh, Tohickon among others, are streams constantly mentioned by armchair amateur fisheries biologists, (read flyfishermen) as being ideally suited to managed releases and ideal "western-like" tailwater fisheries. I've had many conversations with the real experts at the PFBC and all is not what it seems to the dude in waders getting having a slow day or getting skunked.
Floods and water supplies take precedence over the desires of trout fishermen. Catastrophic floods ravaged the eastern portion of PA in 1955 and 1972 and despite several nasty events in recent years, it hasn't come close to that level of destruction.
As a resident of the Commonwealth, I'm glad fly-fishermen don't control the dam releases.
The Pohopoco, Tulpehocken, Lehigh, Tohickon among others, are streams constantly mentioned by armchair amateur fisheries biologists, (read flyfishermen) as being ideally suited to managed releases and ideal "western-like" tailwater fisheries. I've had many conversations with the real experts at the PFBC and all is not what it seems to the dude in waders getting having a slow day or getting skunked.
Floods and water supplies take precedence over the desires of trout fishermen. Catastrophic floods ravaged the eastern portion of PA in 1955 and 1972 and despite several nasty events in recent years, it hasn't come close to that level of destruction.
As a resident of the Commonwealth, I'm glad fly-fishermen don't control the dam releases.
LehighRegular
New member
Bamboozzled
The PFBC has never, and I mean never, taken a hard look at the reservoirs within in PA in an attempt at promoting or enhancing coldwater fisheries below the dams.
That said, it is true that some reservoirs can only provide the "is what it is" type of fishery. But there are a handlful that are not and if managed a bit differently, can make the downstream fishery much better.
The Lehigh & FEW is a classic example of the PFBC's lack of effort in an attempt to improve the fishery below it. I'd also lump Beltzville in there too. Blue Marsh/Tulpehocken is one of those in the "is what it is" category.
The "Study" Ryan R discussed will determine better management practices for recreation and fisheries below the FEW reservoir. This reservoir has LOTS of "extra" room that can be utilized to benefit recreation and fisheries.
Flukey - the Lehigh has fished well all summer so far. Trout have been caught consistently down into Walnutport. This has been due to the cool/wet summer and a nice steady release of 300 cfs we have been getting from FEW, that has been relatively cool (65F). Summers like this, one can catch trout for 40+ miles down river from FEW. Hot dry summers, the fish have to hunker down, but a fair number survive.
I will let you know if I catch a trout in August, I plan on fishing it next week.
The PFBC has never, and I mean never, taken a hard look at the reservoirs within in PA in an attempt at promoting or enhancing coldwater fisheries below the dams.
That said, it is true that some reservoirs can only provide the "is what it is" type of fishery. But there are a handlful that are not and if managed a bit differently, can make the downstream fishery much better.
The Lehigh & FEW is a classic example of the PFBC's lack of effort in an attempt to improve the fishery below it. I'd also lump Beltzville in there too. Blue Marsh/Tulpehocken is one of those in the "is what it is" category.
The "Study" Ryan R discussed will determine better management practices for recreation and fisheries below the FEW reservoir. This reservoir has LOTS of "extra" room that can be utilized to benefit recreation and fisheries.
Flukey - the Lehigh has fished well all summer so far. Trout have been caught consistently down into Walnutport. This has been due to the cool/wet summer and a nice steady release of 300 cfs we have been getting from FEW, that has been relatively cool (65F). Summers like this, one can catch trout for 40+ miles down river from FEW. Hot dry summers, the fish have to hunker down, but a fair number survive.
I will let you know if I catch a trout in August, I plan on fishing it next week.
Broadsheadcreek, Let me personally apologise to you for the finger insult.
I was a little pissed at the time. I am sorry. No excuses.
Bamboozle
Smoking & drinking at a creek near you!
LR:
The reservoir releases in almost all cases are managed and controlled by the US Army Corps of Engineers, not the PFBC. The USACE has a totally different set of priorities, none of which include worrying about the quality of the trout fishing below the dams. I really don't know if the PFBC could do anything about it if they wanted to.
Trust me LR is on top of it and trying to work with both the Army Corps and the PFBC. The PFBC can make recommendations and has begun to do so with ACOE, but it took guys like LR and the Lehigh Coldwater Fishery Alliance pushing them in order for them to do so. Truth is, until the last year or two the PFBC didn't believe the Lehigh had trout below the gorge until these guys and the LRSA proved them wrong.
The dam's primary purpose is and always will be flood control, but they did change the operation directive a few years ago to provide for recreational releases, subject to the flood-control mission. Now the work is being doen to get a more prominent role for fisheries releases. Progress has been made each year in only the last few years. I'm confident this will continue and the trout population will grow and thrive most years in the future.
A big thing is gaining approval and $ allotment to add multiple gates to the release tower in order to better maximize and conserve the coldwater storage pool into the summer months.
LehighRegular
New member
Bamboozle
Actually, You are correct...ACOE has no clue how to manage a fishery from their reservoir. ANd, its not their job to do so. Its really up the to PFBC to "tell them" how to do so.
As Ryan R said, I have have many meetings/discussions with the COrps. If the PFBC would just "ASK", the COrps is very willing to operate in ways to benefit the downstream fishery. Believe it or not, they are very open minded and willing to listen. As long as operations dont incroach or cause problems with the reservoirs primary purpose, which is typically flood control, the Corps will be ameniable to just about anything if "asked".
As I always say...."if you don't ask - you won't get anything"
Actually, You are correct...ACOE has no clue how to manage a fishery from their reservoir. ANd, its not their job to do so. Its really up the to PFBC to "tell them" how to do so.
As Ryan R said, I have have many meetings/discussions with the COrps. If the PFBC would just "ASK", the COrps is very willing to operate in ways to benefit the downstream fishery. Believe it or not, they are very open minded and willing to listen. As long as operations dont incroach or cause problems with the reservoirs primary purpose, which is typically flood control, the Corps will be ameniable to just about anything if "asked".
As I always say...."if you don't ask - you won't get anything"
Barry_Delmar
New member
Boy your NJ Guys are brutal, maybe you should stay in NJ and not come to Pennsylvania.
afishinado
Fishizzle, I use worms but I'm looking to upgrade!
Here's what the "real experts" at the PFBC have to say - John Arway the Director of the PFBC and Dave Miko the cold-water fisheries manager for the commission in the two articles linked below:
http://fishandboat.com/anglerboater/2014ab/vol84num5_sepoct/01straight.pdf
Agency serious about trout tailwaters now - Outdoor News - August 2012
"Most of the truly great wild-trout fisheries in the United States are tailwaters, according to Bill Worobec. But none of them are in the Keystone State.
That needs to change, the Pennsylvania Fish & Boat commissioner from Lycoming County contends.
At his urging, the board of commissioners, at their recent meeting here, voted unanimously to pursue a policy of developing tailwaters."
"Dave Miko, cold-water fisheries manager for the commission, briefed commissioners on the six reservoirs agency staff have selected as candidates for creating tailwater trout fisheries.
The final dam under consideration for the tailwater trout initiative is Beltzville Dam.
A U.S. Army Corps of Engineers flood control project, the dam on Pohopoco Creek creates a 951-acre lake in Carbon County.
Beltzville Dam is already required to meet cold-water release requirements, Miko conceded, but must do better.
“We need to work closer with the folks at Beltzville to see if there is a way to more efficiently use the cold water that is available in Beltzville Lake,” he said."
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