Jig Hooks

[moosekid]

a question about jig hooks -- am I a weenie if I tie streamers with them?? looking for something I can twitch on the bottom that will ride with the hook-point facing up.

there's a driftless forum that i lurk on, and those guys tie all their streamers on jig hooks....they also play nice with spin-fisherman....so it's kinda hard to tell what's acceptable...

 

[WBDluver]

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[lightenup]

Whatever makes you happy, I mean you fish with eggs....so anything is fair game I guess, Rusty uses floating power bait......

 

[FIN-ITE 34]

Use these and you won't have to use jig hooks.
http://flymenfishingcompany.com/products/fish-skull-sculpin-helmet

 

[flyI4]

I've seen jig hooks used before on streamers and have used them a few times. The wide gap is nice for patterns that have a lot of material. You get better hookups and a lot of times patterns with small gaps have driven me crazy when fish are slamming the fly and it just keeps popping out of their mouth on the set. Ive seen some fishy small flash fry minnows tied on jig hooks that look like big flies but are small and nice to cast tied with the Senyo ice dub.

 

[tomfly]

Moose you are a weenie, not using jig hooks won't disavow that. I have used unconventional hooks for flies and had good results with them. Why do you want the fly to drift the with the gap of the hook up?

 

[tomfly]

I've seen jig hooks used before on streamers and have used them a few times. The wide gap is nice for patterns that have a lot of material. You get better hookups and a lot of times patterns with small gaps have driven me crazy when fish are slamming the fly and it just keeps popping out of their mouth on the set. Ive seen some fishy small flash fry minnows tied on jig hooks that look like big flies but are small and nice to cast tied with the Senyo ice dub.

I have had the same problem with larger flies ( large stoneflies, rock-worms) It is not the gap of the hook. The culprit is the length of the hook shank. For some reason and do not fully understand the physics behind it. The longer the hook shank the more leverage the fish has to spit the hook out.

 

[NJpatbee]

I used jig hooks to make a dozen "Mop Flies" and had no ethical issue with it at all - it is still a fly IMO. However, I never caught a fish (not even a bump) with them and have 11 mop flies taking up space in one of my fly boxes that are destined for storage.

 

[Pete]

Do they still make "keel hooks"?
I got a bunch in the '70s when they were a "new innovation"... still use them for weighted streamers intended to be fished near the bottom.

 

[TheHeron]

the fish has to spit the hook out.

Do fish spit? And if so, what do they spit? Water? Saliva? Loogies?

 

[TheHeron]

Why do you want the fly to drift the with the gap of the hook up?

Why wouldn't you with a jig?

 

[tomfly]

Why wouldn't you with a jig?

I see no advantage with gap position. Jigging and drifting a fly are two different actions. When a fly drifts, it is subject to the action of the current. Because of this action the gap of the hook will not stay in a static position up down or facing one way or the other.

 

[TheHeron]

I see no advantage with gap position. Jigging and drifting a fly are two different actions. When a fly drifts, it is subject to the action of the current. Because of this action the gap of the hook will not stay in a static position up down or facing one way or the other.

Mr. Tom,

I disagree. The fly should tend to drift with the hook point up due to the tippet being attached at the highest point above the center of gravity - the bead. The fly may tumble when fished on a completely slack leader/tippet, but typically these flies are fished with a taught leader and guided through the target area.

Mel

 

[lightenup]

Do fish spit? And if so, what do they spit? Water? Saliva? Loogies?

Your flies....
you bird like BOOB!

 

[tomfly]

Mr. Tom,

I disagree. The fly should tend to drift with the hook point up due to the tippet being attached at the highest point above the center of gravity - the bead. The fly may tumble when fished on a completely slack leader/tippet, but typically these flies are fished with a taught leader and guided through the target area.

Mel

You are making an assumption that all flies have beads. Just kidding. I can agree 100% with you in a mono current or slack water conditions. The subject of contention is pointless anyway . I see no advantage with regards to the position of the hook gap up , down, or facing sideways in hooking a fish.

I don't fish streamers I have them but have not used them in years. If I can not catch a fish on an invertebrate imitation, I rather not catch a fish. I have nothing against the use of streamers. If you enjoy fishing them do it. My reason for fishing is not about numbers or even catching fish. It is more based on gaining an understanding of what the fish are dining on at that point in time. I believe there are no " the fish are not feeding today days" they eat or die. It is a very simplistic approach. I have been successful with the 15 cast method.( cast15 times is an area that should hold a fish, behind all the rocks, different currents, eddys, what looks fishy. If it does not produce a strike in 15 casts ( drifts) change something. It has been my nymphing approach for a few years and works for the way I fish. That is why I see no reason for myself to fish a streamer.

 

[TheHeron]

You are making an assumption that all flies have beads. Just kidding. I can agree 100% with you in a mono current or slack water conditions. The subject of contention is pointless anyway . I see no advantage with regards to the position of the hook gap up , down, or facing sideways in hooking a fish.

I don't fish streamers I have them but have not used them in years. If I can not catch a fish on an invertebrate imitation, I rather not catch a fish. I have nothing against the use of streamers. If you enjoy fishing them do it. My reason for fishing is not about numbers or even catching fish. It is more based on gaining an understanding of what the fish are dining on at that point in time. I believe there are no " the fish are not feeding today days" they eat or die. It is a very simplistic approach. I have been successful with the 15 cast method.( cast15 times is an area that should hold a fish, behind all the rocks, different currents, eddys, what looks fishy. If it does not produce a strike in 15 casts ( drifts) change something. It has been my nymphing approach for a few years and works for the way I fish. That is why I see no reason for myself to fish a streamer.

What are you talking about? It isn't an assumption, the hook riding up means the fly is less likely to get hung up on the bottom, it has nothing to do with hooking the fish, although that may be a plus, too.

Try not to overthink this shit.

 

[FIN-ITE 34]

Most bottom dredging with a sculpin pattern is best done with a hook point that rides up for the reasons given by Big Bird. The Sculpin Helmets were made exactly for that reason, to be able to use standard streamer hooks and have them ride hook point up.

 

[tomfly]

What are you talking about? It isn't an assumption, the hook riding up means the fly is less likely to get hung up on the bottom, it has nothing to do with hooking the fish, although that may be a plus, too.

Try not to overthink this shit.

Again I disagree. A hook never embeds in a rock. Most snags are related to submerged debris sticks logs other hidden stuff. Most of it is not hugging the bottom. It is up in the column again I see no advantage. The leader and or tippet will hit the obstruction the fly may or may not catch the snag. Again I see no advantage. Can anyone show any evidence to support that claim. I looked I have found none. The truth is if there is a snag there and your leader drifts into it you have the same chance to get hung up in it no matter what way the gap of the hook is facing. Like I said I do not use streamers. I use nymphs and think as a nympher.

 

[Mail]

I tie a BUNCH of my streamers on Jig hooks. Really worth it for the action and hook point riding up.

 

[TheHeron]

Again I disagree. A hook never embeds in a rock. Most snags are related to submerged debris sticks logs other hidden stuff. Most of it is not hugging the bottom. It is up in the column again I see no advantage. The leader and or tippet will hit the obstruction the fly may or may not catch the snag. Again I see no advantage. Can anyone show any evidence to support that claim. I looked I have found none. The truth is if there is a snag there and your leader drifts into it you have the same chance to get hung up in it no matter what way the gap of the hook is facing. Like I said I do not use streamers. I use nymphs and think as a nympher.

If a hook rides up, as opposed to riding down, it is less likely to get hung up on the bottom, period. I'm not arguing with you - its a simple fact.

BTW - I think you think too much about trying to think like you think in a way that others do not think to make yourself think that others do not think the way you think so that you think we will think you are a better thinker about thinking about how to fish better than those that think differently than you think.

I think that makes sense. What do you think?

Me? I just like getting my feet wet and if I catch something, that's gravy.

 

[TheHeron]

I tie a BUNCH of my streamers on Jig hooks. Really worth it for the action and hook point riding up.

Rock on!!!

 

[moosekid]

If a hook rides up, as opposed to riding down, it is less likely to get hung up on the bottom, period. I'm not arguing with you - its a simple fact.

BTW - I think you think too much about trying to think like you think in a way that others do not think to make yourself think that others do not think the way you think so that you think we will think you are a better thinker about thinking about how to fish better than those that think differently than you think.

I think that makes sense. What do you think?

Me? I just like getting my feet wet and if I catch something, that's gravy.

One NEFF contributor described debating with Tom quite eloquently when he said:

"it's like fighting a zombie -- you chop off a limb and he doesn't even notice, he just keeps coming at you."

 

[lightenup]

If a hook rides up, as opposed to riding down, it is less likely to get hung up on the bottom, period. I'm not arguing with you - its a simple fact.

BTW - I think you think too much about trying to think like you think in a way that others do not think to make yourself think that others do not think the way you think so that you think we will think you are a better thinker about thinking about how to fish better than those that think differently than you think.

I think that makes sense. What do you think?

Me? I just like getting my feet wet and if I catch something, that's gravy.

Can the "like" button come back please?

It is for hilarity like this.....:hysterica

 

[tomfly]

If a hook rides up, as opposed to riding down, it is less likely to get hung up on the bottom, period. I'm not arguing with you - its a simple fact.

BTW - I think you think too much about trying to think like you think in a way that others do not think to make yourself think that others do not think the way you think so that you think we will think you are a better thinker about thinking about how to fish better than those that think differently than you think.

I think that makes sense. What do you think?

Me? I just like getting my feet wet and if I catch something, that's gravy.

I am over thinking again or am I?
Pete's fly is beautifully tied. Look at it with an open mind. What is wrong with design of the hook? Am I the only one that sees it. Put aside the argument that I am making about the gap facing upwards. Even though it Is contradictory to the laws of fluid and thermal dynamics. Let say all of you are correct and the gap is always facing up. Why would you use conceder using this design?. There is an inherent flaw that none of you see. What is it? If you look at it you should see it. The gap of the hook is facing up. You hook a fish. The fish is hooked deep , the upper mandible. Now do you see the problem. If you still do not see it keep reading. The fish is hooked in the upper part of mouth. I see a greater potential for mortality. When a fish is hooked in the for mentioned part of the mouth there is a chance that the optic nerve and or the eye can be injured even greater chance in smaller fish(native brookies).

 

[TheHeron]

Apparently all you have left is use of personal insults. That tells a lot about the quality of your character. Why is it so important to you that I agree with you? Use some facts to prove your point. I don’t get some of you guys. Anyone who disagrees with you is instantly attacked. When did this behavior become acceptable. No one on this site can ever say I took a dig at them for disagreeing with them. If I disagree with someone, I don’t have to take jabs at them to make my position seem to be on the higher ground. Mabey I was raised differently. If you Moosekid and LU have a problem with me don't beat around the bush act like men and bring it out.

Mr. Fly, take your sanctimonious BS somewhere else. All I said essentially is that I think that you think too much. Your objections to peoples assertions seem to me like you are just disagreeing just to disagree,and your comments tend to be circuitous.

Also, why is it ok for you to call someone a weenie, but when someone busts your balls they have a problem with you - we take your comment as simple ball busting, you take ours as insults. I've been called worse stuff on here - don't take it personally, or don't post.

Mel

 

[lightenup]

I am over thinking again or am I?
Pete's fly is beautifully tied. Look at it with an open mind. What is wrong with design of the hook? Am I the only one that sees it. Put aside the argument that I am making about the gap facing upwards. Even though it Is contradictory to the laws of fluid and thermal dynamics. Let say all of you are correct and the gap is always facing up. Why would you use conceder using this design?. There is an inherent flaw that none of you see. What is it? If you look at it you should see it. The gap of the hook is facing up. You hook a fish. The fish is hooked deep , the upper mandible. Now do you see the problem. If you still do not see it keep reading. The fish is hooked in the upper part of mouth. I see a greater potential for mortality. When a fish is hooked in the for mentioned part of the mouth there is a chance that the optic nerve and or the eye can be injured even greater chance in smaller fish(native brookies).

if you're worried about all this, you should just put the rod away and look at the fish.....I hooked a fish right in the asshole last week....it gave me a good laugh and the fish a nasty hemorrhoid....I'm not worried...)

 

[tomfly]

Mr. Fly, take your sanctimonious BS somewhere else. All I said essentially is that I think that you think too much. Your objections to peoples assertions seem to me like you are just disagreeing just to disagree,and your comments tend to be circuitous.

Also, why is it ok for you to call someone a weenie, but when someone busts your balls they have a problem with you - we take your comment as simple ball busting, you take ours as insults. I've been called worse stuff on here - don't take it personally, or don't post.

Mel

Accepted as ball busting I may have over reacted accept my apology.

 

[Pete]

I am over thinking again or am I?
Pete's fly is beautifully tied. Look at it with an open mind. What is wrong with design of the hook? Am I the only one that sees it. Put aside the argument that I am making about the gap facing upwards. Even though it Is contradictory to the laws of fluid and thermal dynamics. Let say all of you are correct and the gap is always facing up. Why would you use conceder using this design?. There is an inherent flaw that none of you see. What is it? If you look at it you should see it. The gap of the hook is facing up. You hook a fish. The fish is hooked deep , the upper mandible. Now do you see the problem. If you still do not see it keep reading. The fish is hooked in the upper part of mouth. I see a greater potential for mortality. When a fish is hooked in the for mentioned part of the mouth there is a chance that the optic nerve and or the eye can be injured even greater chance in smaller fish(native brookies).

Overthinking ? Perhaps, but without reading your mind, it appears that you are working very hard, looking for reasons to support a preconception...

I could just as easily expound on how an upward facing hook is more likely to avoid the gills (but I won't).

BTW: That's not my fly. The only thing I had handy on a keel hook, was a chewed-up Mickey Finn that should have been retired long ago. I found that by Googling.

Regarding "Snags":
One thing you guys haven't mentioned. Whether you use a jig hook, a keel hook, a special head weight, or just tie the fly upside down... A streamer wing that covers the hook point can act like a weed guard to deflect the snag away from the point. But don't overdo it and end up with a "fish guard".

To answer the original question:

a question about jig hooks -- am I a weenie if I tie streamers with them??

Your weenieness is unrelated to your choice of hooks.
If you're not a weenie, using a jig hook won't make you one.
If you are a weenie, using a standard streamer hook won't cure you.

 

[tomfly]

if you're worried about all this, you should just put the rod away and look at the fish.....I hooked a fish right in the asshole last week....it gave me a good laugh and the fish a nasty hemorrhoid....I'm not worried...)

If I can avoid harming a fish I will. Stuff like what you stared happens to all of us. I was just making an observation. Conventional hooks are designed to hook a fish in the lower mouth. When they are hooked deep in the lower mouth. I can cut fly off and the fish will survive. Everyone foul hooks a fish. It happen to me twice last week. One on the tail and another in the dorsal fin . There is a difference in foul hooking a fish and using a potentially deadly design hook. If you hook a fish in the upper mouth with a large wide gap jig hook. It is more likely to harm the fish.

 

[tomfly]

Overthinking ? Perhaps, but without reading your mind, it appears that you are working very hard, looking for reasons to support a preconception...

I could just as easily expound on how an upward facing hook is more likely to avoid the gills (but I won't).

BTW: That's not my fly. The only thing I had handy on a keel hook, was a chewed-up Mickey Finn that should have been retired long ago. I found that by Googling.

Regarding "Snags":
One thing you guys haven't mentioned. Whether you use a jig hook, a keel hook, a special head weight, or just tie the fly upside down... A streamer wing that covers the hook point can act like a weed guard to deflect the snag away from the point. But don't overdo it and end up with a "fish guard".

To answer the original question:Your weenieness is unrelated to your choice of hooks.
If you're not a weenie, using a jig hook won't make you one.
If you are a weenie, using a standard streamer hook won't cure you.

I have read other blogs where guys have stopped using them for the reason I said.
I have been fly fishing almost as long as you.I have never hooked a fish in the gills with a fly. Can anyone say that they have? Just curious if it happens with flies.