It's WAR

[Uncrowded]

For the past few months, we have seen hundreds of posts on this site related to natural gas drilling in the Catskills and Delaware watershed. Based on the number of views (well into the thousands), this is an extremely important issue to NEFF members.

Though a few on this site are proponents for immediate drilling in the Catskills and Delaware watershed (God love them), most of us seem to understand that – as currently proposed – the risks from gas drilling in the Catskills clearly outweigh the benefits. News stories are posted here nearly every day about a growing number of chemical spills, fish kills, explosions, groundwater contamination, air pollution issues, etc. from areas all over the U.S. (and neighboring Pennsylvania) where natural gas drilling has already taken place.

I, for one, look at this as nothing short of a war on OUR Catskill trout streams – OUR secret pools on the Delaware, OUR Hendrickson hatch, OUR nesting bald eagles, OUR heart-breakingly beautiful view of dark, silent mountains where we cast to rising fish every spring. We’re all anglers here and this stuff is sacred to us. It’s our church – this is where we find God. It’s corny but true. If this isn’t worth fighting for, what the hell is?

Well here’s your chance. Many of us live in New York City, New Jersey, or the surrounding suburbs. Next Tuesday. November 10th, there will be a DEC public hearing in New York City on the proposed environmental impact statement to allow drilling in the Catskills. The hearing starts at 7 p.m. at Stuyvesant High School, 345 Chambers Street in Manhattan. There will even be a rally beginning at 5 p.m. across from the high school to get things started.

This will be your chance to tell the DEC to BACK OFF on this risky proposal. Gas drillers have already pulled out of drilling in New York City’s watershed because they said it was too risky to drinking water supplies. Why should the Delaware watershed be any different, or any watershed for that matter? If you need more specifics about the flaws in DEC’s proposal, go to the Delaware Riverkeeper’s website The Delaware Riverkeeper Network. They have assembled a powerful list of “talking points,” which you should feel free to incorporate into your comments. Or write your own. Or simply stand up there and tell them to stay the hell out of OUR river. If you can’t make the hearing, you can send in written comments, but please do come if you can. The DEC needs to see that we are an angry but motivated mob – that this is going to affect real, live people.

And if you think your lone voice doesn’t count on this issue, think again. We have already moved a mountain when Chesapeake Energy withdrew their permit last month to de-water the West Branch. Make no mistake that the 3,000-plus letters the Delaware River Basin Commission received against this permit (I know a bunch of NEFF members who wrote) played a huge role in their decision. Also, make no mistake that the gas drillers are simply re-grouping, looking for another place to suck water – and subsequently pollute it – from our watershed.

So guys this is it. This is the Battle of Britain and the Stukas and Messerschmitts are coming. Your Spitfire awaits. Let’s make this our finest hour…

 

[Future Fanatic]

So guys this is it. This is the Battle of Britain and the Stukas and Messerschmitts are coming. Your Spitfire awaits. Let’s make this our finest hour…

Let me add, "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

And there are some that will make sure there is plenty to go around.

Meetings you could attend:

Public Hearing Schedule - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

 

[tompg]

I know the objections of the "find energy here crowd" and am not without sympathy, but there are two resources involved in this discusson. Drinking water and energy. We won't really care about energy if we don't have the water. We are mostly water and some of us are partly gas. Let's preserve what we are or we won't be here to preserve.

Ugly bags of water

 

[Uncrowded]

Let me add, "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

And there are some that will make sure there is plenty to go around.

Meetings you could attend:

Public Hearing Schedule - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

I'm not scared -- I'm pissed. thanks for posting the hearing schedule.

 

[Future Fanatic]

I'm not scared -- I'm pissed. thanks for posting the hearing schedule.

Maybe you aren't, but you use fear to get people to act.

You are welcome; I'll do anything that may help people find the truth.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Well here’s your chance. Many of us live in New York City, New Jersey, or the surrounding suburbs. Next Tuesday. November 10th, there will be a DEC public hearing in New York City on the proposed environmental impact statement to allow drilling in the Catskills. The hearing starts at 7 p.m. at Stuyvesant High School, 345 Chambers Street in Manhattan. There will even be a rally beginning at 5 p.m. across from the high school to get things started.

There is more time to complain! (and don't be late to the NYC meeting) :

For Release: IMMEDIATE Contact: Yancey Roy
Wednesday, November 4, 2009 (518) 402-8000

DEC EXTENDS PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD FOR MARCELLUS SHALE
DRAFT SGEIS


The New York State Department of Environmental Conservation today announced it has extended the public comment period on the draft Supplemental Generic Environmental Impact Statement (SGEIS) governing potential natural gas drilling activities in the Marcellus Shale formation from Nov. 30 to Dec. 31.

The SGEIS addresses the range of potential impacts of shale gas development using horizontal drilling and high-volume hydraulic fracturing and outlines safety measures, protection standards and mitigation strategies that operators would have to follow to obtain permits. The full draft SGEIS ( Draft Supplemental Generic Environmental Impact Statement on the Oil, Gas and Solution Mining Regulatory Program - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation ) is available on DEC's web site, along with highlights of the document ( DEC Proposes New Safety Measures, Mitigation Strategies to Govern Potential Marcellus Shale Drilling - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation). Printed copies are available for review at DEC regional offices and most sub-offices and libraries that traditionally have served as repositories. A list of repositories ( Locations Where Paper Copies of the Draft SGEIS Are Available To Read - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation ) can be found on DEC's web site.

DEC is offering four ways in which to submit comments. Comments may be provided at one of the scheduled public hearings ( Public Hearing Schedule - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation ). There is an online submission system ( SGEIS Comments ) which will allow interested parties to write comments and tag them to specific areas of concern. Attachments can also be included. E-mail comments may be submitted to dmnsgeis@gw.dec.state.ny.us; please include your name, e-mail or return mail address to ensure notice of the Final SGEIS when it is available. Finally, written comments should be sent to: Attn: dSGEIS Comments, Bureau of Oil & Gas Regulation, NYSDEC Division of Mineral Resources, 625 Broadway, Third Floor, Albany, NY 12233-6500.

*** Note: DEC also has moved up the start time of the hearing in New York City on November 10. Doors will open at 5:30 p.m. for individual questions and speaker sign-up. DEC staff will be available at this time to answer individual questions about the format and contents of the draft SGEIS. The public comment session will begin at 6:30 p.m.

 

[Kilgour Farms]

Just remember that these hearings are setup for questions specifically related to the SDGEIS. Telling them that you just don't want drilling is immaterial. These hearings are setup to discuss the proposed regulations not a hearing about whether drilling should happen.

Emotion is not a consideration at these hearings, facts are.

 

[Uncrowded]

Please don’t let the fact that you haven’t had time to read all 800-plus pages of the SGEIS stop you from testifying! At the rally at 5 p.m., talking points will be available that specifically address the myriad problems with the SGEIS. Or go to Catskill Mountainkeeper (Catskill Mountainkeeper | WORKING TOGETHER TO PROTECT THE CATSKILLS) or Delaware Riverkeeper (The Delaware Riverkeeper Network) for talking points and additional info – they have read all 800 pages, and list its many flaws. Don’t be intimidated by this process. And feel free to show emotion and take this personally. These guys are gunning for your trout streams – don’t forget that. And if you need still more proof of what lies ahead, this is from yesterday’s Wayne Independent. FYI: Dimock is just 35 miles from Hancock, but in the Susquehanna watershed. The Delaware watershed is next guys...


Gas company slapped with environmental violations
________________________________________

By Steve McConnell
Wayne Independent
Thu Nov 05, 2009, 05:19 PM EST
________________________________________
Dimock Township, Pa. -
A natural gas drilling company must provide a permanent supply of water to 13 homes in Dimock Township, Susquehanna County along with correcting problems at its production sites that caused methane to pollute drinking water in this small rural community, environmental regulators said.
The state Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) slapped Cabot Oil & Gas on Wednesday with a 23-page order - littered with a slew of additional environmental violations - of corrective actions the company must address to eliminate the methane contamination in the hopes of restoring well water in the affected area.
According to the consent order obtained by The Wayne Independent, eight natural gas wells operated by the Texas-based company failed - causing methane to spew into the local aquifer beginning about December 2008. The failures were due to either excessive pressure or “insufficient or improper” underground well casings - which ordinarily prevent this type of incident from occurring. (Methane is the principal component of natural gas).
DEP delineated a nine-square mile “affected area” - home to 62 Cabot Oil & Gas natural gas wells in Dimock Township - centering around Carter Road.
Carter Road is also home to some of the 13 residences that now have methane-infused drinking and bathing water.
The company was fined $120,000 for the methane contamination on Wednesday.
This follows a $56,650 fine for three toxic chemical spills in September that released, in the same township, an estimated 8,000 gallons of an industrial waste associated with Cabot’s natural gas drilling, said environmental regulators and a company spokesperson. Shortly after the spills that also flowed into a local creek and wetland, DEP shutdown Cabot’s operation in the area.
“The goal of the consent order and agreement is to ensure a long-term resolution to issues that have emerged in Dimock,” said DEP Director Kelly Burch. An attempt to call a Cabot spokesperson was unsuccessful by press time on Thursday.
If well water is not fully restored, the company must provide an alternate, long-term solution to supply water to the 13 impacted residences.
The residences were located within 1,300 feet of Cabot’s operations, according to the consent order; drilling began around Carter Road in August 2008.
Carter Road residents have previously told The Wayne Independent that they began drinking bottled water after learning that their wells contained elevated levels of methane, in some instances at a combustible concentration.
Combustion actually occurred in one instance and served as the proverbial wake-up call to the problems here: DEP began its investigation after a concrete slab on top of a resident’s well exploded on New Year’s Day - 2009.
“We weren’t here when it happened,” Norma Fiorentino told The Wayne Independent last spring about what happened to her well. “But we came back and found a big hole in the earth where it was.”
Fiorentino has refused to drink her well water since then.
“You just don’t drink water that explodes,” she said; nearly a year later, the company will now purchase water for her.
The company, which has leased 78 private properties in Wayne County, giving them the right to drill for natural gas, must repair all of its failed natural gas wells by March. If the company does not do so by then, the wells must be plugged.
According to DEP, Cabot has thus far fixed five of the eight failed wells; but three still have “insufficient or improper” casings - meaning that methane may still be seeping through the drilled well, thereby into the local aquifer.
The consent order also detailed four other industrial waste spills reported by the company in Dimock Township.
•September 2008: drilling mud - an industrial waste - flowed into a spring seep in violation of the state’s Clean Streams Law.
•January 2009: 100 gallons of diesel fuel spilled at a well site, caused by a fuel-line leak on a drilling-mud pump.
•February 2009: an estimated 5 to 10 barrels of drilling mud discharged into a field, caused by equipment failure.
•March 2009: drilling mud flowed into a local creek.

 

[Agust]

Emotion is not a consideration at these hearings, facts are.

While these hearings are certainly a place for facts, there must be a consideration of emotions. The upper Delaware river is steeped in history, poetry, passion and emotion. The cold clean water has not just provided drinking water, but inspired poets, painters, anglers and authors for this part of the world since the first settlers entered the Katerskills.

Facts about drilling are important and cannot be ignored, but the risks to the river and these very important places mean that emotion and passion are intrinsic to the process and must not be ignored.

As animals we need water for our bodies to survive, as human beings need beauty and inspiration for our spirit to survive, both are vital to our quality of life and must be considered in any decision on drilling.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Please don’t let the fact that you haven’t had time to read all 800-plus pages of the SGEIS stop you from testifying!

Don't let the fact that you have NO idea as to what is in the document stop you from speaking out against it!

At the rally at 5 p.m., talking points will be available that specifically address the myriad problems with the SGEIS. Or go to Catskill Mountainkeeper (Catskill Mountainkeeper | WORKING TOGETHER TO PROTECT THE CATSKILLS) or Delaware Riverkeeper (The Delaware Riverkeeper Network) for talking points and additional info – they have read all 800 pages, and list its many flaws. Don’t be intimidated by this process.

Take some one else's word for it. (Why not just let THose who wrote the "talking points" speak?)

And feel free to show emotion and take this personally.

Cry a little, or better yet, scream at them. (I just hope that Pelosi doesn't call you Unamerican).

These guys are gunning for your trout streams – don’t forget that.

Does ANYONE believe this? Does anyone think that they are "gunning for your trout streams"? Ridiculous. You should be ashamed.

And if you need still more proof of what lies ahead, this is from yesterday’s Wayne Independent. FYI: Dimock is just 35 miles from Hancock, but in the Susquehanna watershed. The Delaware watershed is next guys...

Some methane in well water will hurt no one. (It happens in my bath tub all the time). NOT toxic, NOT a threat to anyone's trout stream...

Certainly a GREAT inconvenience that NEEDS to be FIXED and paid for, BUT, BOY OH BOY, it scares people...

 

[Uncrowded]

Future Fanatic and Kilgour farms: God Love you both

 

[Ryan R]

Future Fanatic and Kilgour farms: God Love you both

Ah Uncrowded, don't hold back, I say eff 'em both. Thanks Kilgour Farms for letting us know what can and can't be brought up at the hearings. Future Fanatic it's you that should be ashamed.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Ah Uncrowded, don't hold back, I say eff 'em both. Thanks Kilgour Farms for letting us know what can and can't be brought up at the hearings. Future Fanatic it's you that should be ashamed.

For?

And what's God got to do with it?

 

[mbwmn]

Take some one else's word for it. (Why not just let THose who wrote the "talking points" speak?)
- I was almost done reading the EIS myself, but my attention has been diverted to reading some (one of two) of the health care bills that are getting shoved up my ass.


Cry a little, or better yet, scream at them. (I just hope that Pelosi doesn't call you Unamerican).
-Silly! You know this isn't Federal.
I suspect that we might be hearing from Chuck Schumer and/or Charley Rangel though. Too bad these two spend so much time in Washington. If we kept them near the new pipeline we could tap their gas and might not have to drill the Catskills at all....


Does ANYONE believe this? Does anyone think that they are "gunning for your trout streams"? Ridiculous. You should be ashamed.
-Really. You are being ridiculous if you think they are even considering trout streams in the least. They are no more considering trout streams than local drinking water supplies. I gaurantee they are waay to focused on the $$$ (gas) to even THINK about silly streams and wells and trout....


Some methane in well water will hurt no one. (It happens in my bath tub all the time). NOT toxic, NOT a threat to anyone's trout stream...
-All this silly talk about methane in drinking water and dead trout streams...It's almost as bad as those people who claim their livestock are being affected. No one has ever proven that the methane in their well didn't occur naturally, and they can't! It's really just a coincidence. Some of the wells are probably over 100 years old. They were bound to produce a little methane sooner or later. Who's to say they haven't produced methane before? Just be careful when you light the burner on the stove after filling the pasta pot; you'll be fine, really. It's pretty much colorless and odorless, so even if you are affected by it you probably won't know...
And the methane probably won't kill the trout; the frac fluid will. BUT, if the drilling companies don't report what's in the frac fluid then it can never be traced back to them, get it? If the frac fluid doesn't kill the trout and something else does it will just be blamed on a "natuarally" occurring phenomena like an "unexplainable" algae bloom or something. No worries! Strange occurrances in nature happen, and sometimes can't be explained.


Certainly a GREAT inconvenience that NEEDS to be FIXED and paid for, BUT, BOY OH BOY, it scares people...

-And let's make it very, very clear that the drilling companies that are supplying water to residents around drilling sites are just being good neighbors! There is no admission of guilt here, as methane occurs 'naturally' in wells. There's no way that gas drilling and the associated activities like cutting roads, bridging creeks and building frac fluid retention impoundments could be responsible for well contamination, fish kills, and livestock problems. IT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR 60 YEARS. No one needs to know that horizontal fracing with toxic chemicals is relatively new. They also don't need to know that the horizontal sections of the wells could exceed 2 miles in length! What would happen if the people with suddenly occuring "natural" methane in wells 2 miles away from a drilling pad found out? There would be no end of whining!
Just let our good neighbors the gas drillers supply your water. I'm sure they'll be around for many, many generations after the gas has been pumped out. Your family has nothing to worry about! Just because they didn't sell mining rights on the small acerage they had, and now can't afford to move away like the large parcel landowners did the gas companies will always be there for them...It's a minor inconvenience, and the amount of money the drillers will spend to "fix" "naturally occuring" issues is small compared to all the money the serious players stand to make.
ALL IN ALL A SMALL PRICE TO PAY TO MAKE A FEW VERY WEALTHY, and continue on our path to "energy independance"!
You are FOR energy independence, right?

I would like to attend the meeting, but I think that day is SOYLENT GREEN day..don't want to miss that...

 

[tompg]

Question for K Farms anf Future F:

Are you guys fishermen or do you monitor sites like this to keep on eye on the fishing/conservation commie community? Are you conservationists in any sense of the word? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Future Fanatic]

-Really. You are being ridiculous if you think they are even considering trout streams in the least. They are no more considering trout streams than local drinking water supplies. I gaurantee they are waay to focused on the $$$ (gas) to even THINK about silly streams and wells and trout....

Come now, didn't uncrowded tell us about how one company will not be drilling in the watershed to safeguard drinking water? Ya' see, they care.


-All this silly talk about methane in drinking water and dead trout streams... It's almost as bad as those people who claim their livestock are being affected.

Stay focused here M... Your boy uncrowded made HIS POINT about the big bad gas companies by highlighting METHANE in wells... in HIS post about polluting the watershed... Methane in well water will NOT pollute the water in the Delaware. He used that news story to support this idea. It DOESN'T. But he seems to be OK with not letting tiny little details get in the way of a good ole' emotional appeal...

No one has ever proven that the methane in their well didn't occur naturally, and they can't! It's really just a coincidence. Some of the wells are probably over 100 years old. They were bound to produce a little methane sooner or later. Who's to say they haven't produced methane before? Just be careful when you light the burner on the stove after filling the pasta pot; you'll be fine, really. It's pretty much colorless and odorless, so even if you are affected by it you probably won't know...

And WHY go on and on about it? I wrote that if indeed it happens it needs to be fixed AND paid for...

And the methane probably won't kill the trout; the frac fluid will. BUT, if the drilling companies don't report what's in the frac fluid then it can never be traced back to them, get it?

BUT they WILL report what is in the FRAC fluid! (You must not have gotten to that section, yet. Well, keep pluggin' along, it's in there).

If the frac fluid doesn't kill the trout and something else does it will just be blamed on a "natuarally" occurring phenomena like an "unexplainable" algae bloom or something. No worries! Strange occurrances in nature happen, and sometimes can't be explained.

But it WAS explained. PA DEP said that this mining company has had problems FOR YEARS contributing to high salinity in that river. YEARS. Coal Bed Methane country... remember I said it was a whole different animal?

-And let's make it very, very clear that the drilling companies that are supplying water to residents around drilling sites are just being good neighbors! There is no admission of guilt here, as methane occurs 'naturally' in wells.

Did you not READ uncrowded's posted article? In it it said:

According to DEP, Cabot has thus far fixed five of the eight failed wells; but three still have “insufficient or improper” casings - meaning that methane may still be seeping through the drilled well, thereby into the local aquifer.

Seems that they have accepted responsibility by fixing their poor casing jobs.
And if hey don't fix them, they must plug the wells...


There's no way that gas drilling and the associated activities like cutting roads, bridging creeks and building frac fluid retention impoundments could be responsible for well contamination, fish kills, and livestock problems. IT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR 60 YEARS. No one needs to know that horizontal fracing with toxic chemicals is relatively new. They also don't need to know that the horizontal sections of the wells could exceed 2 miles in length! What would happen if the people with suddenly occuring "natural" methane in wells 2 miles away from a drilling pad found out? There would be no end of whining![/COLOR]

And this shows me that you really don't understand how the sytem works (you know, the one covered by the dgeis). In NY a drilling unit MAY cover up to 640 acres. One square mile. The landowners within that unit would all be notified. The drillers would then drill WITHIN that square mile. They have technology that lets them know exactly where the drill bit is located underground. In the event of a problem, the DEC could find EXACTLY where and when drilling occured near the affected wells. So NO two mile horizontal sections.

]Just let our good neighbors the gas drillers supply your water. I'm sure they'll be around for many, many generations after the gas has been pumped out. Your family has nothing to worry about! Just because they didn't sell mining rights on the small acerage they had, and now can't afford to move away like the large parcel landowners did the gas companies will always be there for them...

AGAIN, if the landowner is in a Drilling Unit, they WILL receive royalties based upon the percentage of their land within the unit. Granted, smaller landowner's may not become rich, but they will recieve compensation for their portion of the gas that was extracted. Smaller landowners who do not enter into leases and become part of a unit will also not have wells drilled on their property or 500 feet (or maybe 330)from their property lines. But of course, they won't have to move away...

It's a minor inconvenience, and the amount of money the drillers will spend to "fix" "naturally occuring" issues is small compared to all the money the serious players stand to make.[/COLOR]
[]ALL IN ALL A SMALL PRICE TO PAY TO MAKE A FEW VERY WEALTHY, and continue on our path to "energy independance"!You are FOR energy independence, right?

Of course I am; everyone should be. Even those people speaking out aginst drilling here use gas from other parts of the country and continent (but I guess it is ok to screw up their environments?... hypocrites)

]I would like to attend the meeting, but I think that day is SOYLENT GREEN day..don't want to miss thatquote]...................

 

[Future Fanatic]

Question for K Farms anf Future F:

Are you guys fishermen or do you monitor sites like this to keep on eye on the fishing/conservation commie community? Are you conservationists in any sense of the word? Inquiring minds want to know.

That hurts, Tompg. I've been on this site for years and years. Although I'm ever on the alert for Socialists (have you seen them coming out of the woodwork on this one?), yes, I do fish (with a fly no less, but NOT as often as I'd like. It's mainly because I've got two jobs, one being the raising of live stock on my 140 acres of Nirvana that I've lived on for near 30 years. Since I've no kids, the plan is to donate my property either to a land trust or the government(if they can guarantee it's use as open space). Don't worry, the land will be beautiful and frack toxin free(tell your great grand kids to come up for a visit)).

I think people who want to save this area from the scourge of the gas companies should come on up and BUY LAND. The 150 acre farm down the road is still for sale guys... C'mon, put your money where your mouth is boys.
The taxes are probably only 6 grand a year...

 

[gadfly]

Emotion is not a consideration at these hearings, facts are.

If that's really the case, it will be the first such public meeting ever.....


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[Kilgour Farms]

I didn't say these meeting are without emotion. I'm saying that in the end facts are considered not emotion when a final determination is made.

People cry because they lack access to waterways and land is posted, some think they have a right to this access, emotion.

Land is posted because its private, landowner pays taxes on it and has a right to post, fact.

Who wins?? Facts.

I don't hear Bloomberg demanding a ban on drilling do you? He's a smart business man and realises what the furture holds with NG for the county and NYC as well as NYC having a way to finance their furture filtration plant..

He doesn't cut his nose off to spite his face like others in NYC.

 

[gadfly]

The analogy you give about private property is not even close.

Public sentiment is always a consideration in public meetings that are held to inform policy decisions.
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[Future Fanatic]

I don't hear Bloomberg demanding a ban on drilling do you? He's a smart business man and realises what the furture holds with NG for the county and NYC as well as NYC having a way to finance their furture filtration plant..

He doesn't cut his nose off to spite his face like others in NYC.

Well, back in 2005...

Seeking his second, supposedly final term in 2005, Bloomberg repeated his vow to resist a proposed change in the term-limit law.

"I think it would be an absolute disgrace to go around the public will," he said on Aug. 30, 2005.

The City Council, over his veto, changed the law once to allow its speaker, Gifford Miller, an extra two years in office.

Bloomberg said four years ago: "They already did, I thought, monkey around with it to extend the definition of two terms to two and a half. Enough!"

hmmm...

Very hugochavezesque, no?

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I don't hear Bloomberg demanding a ban on drilling do you? He's a smart business man and realises what the furture holds with NG for the county and NYC as well as NYC having a way to finance their furture filtration plant..

I would hardly call the City's position on gas drilling any sort of endorsement of the process. The DEP's letter to Grannis regarding the DSGEIS is very critical of the DEC's response to the city's concerns over contamination risks inside the watershed, stating that the DEC's response was "inadequate." While not calling for an outright ban, it is very clear that the city is opposed to the process without further study and review, especially of the issues specific to the watershed.

 

[Kilgour Farms]

I still don't hear Bloomberg. Why? Hes waiting for the report before he decides, smart man. Doesn't take all the gloom and doom that groups put out, Wants real answers from experts who know.

 

[mbwmn]

Question for K Farms anf Future F:

Are you guys fishermen or do you monitor sites like this to keep on eye on the fishing/conservation commie community? Are you conservationists in any sense of the word? Inquiring minds want to know.

tompg, you might call yourself a conservationist too, until you faced these numbers:
150 acres x $5500(a recent price paid in PA?) per acre = $825,000.00
(that's just the first lease term, probably 5-7 years. A landowner w/ 150 acres gets this just for signing a lease I think.)
Then there's the 12.5-20percent "take" on the production...I don't know how this works out in real money...although there are some reports of incredible yeilds from PA wells...
>The royalties paid to eligible property owners from a well yielding over >one million cubic feet of natural gas per day can be hundreds of >thousands of dollars per year.
from: Marcellus Shale Gas: New Research Results Surprise Geologists!

So, here's a scenario (not implying that this applies to anyone on this board)...
You inherit or marry into a few acres in the Catskills. Maybe Future Fanatic talked you into becoming his neighbor! You suck as a farmer (it's a very, very hard life), and you're not much better with livestock (again, not exactly a banker's position). Your family (or the previous owners) took all the lumber (or sand, gravel, bluestone, insert natural resource here) from the property. Someone offers you $800,000. or more, and they may never even drill, just sign here!
If they do drill, you stand to make up to a few hundred thousand per year for the remainder of the lease (5-7 years). Then you get to start all over again, although the numbers will probably decrease the second time around...

I suspect you could buy a lot of Poland Spring for this kind of money if you didn't like the water the drilling company supplies.

I think a check of this size could make any "conservationist" trying to scratch out a very hard living think twice.

It really is in Future's and Kilour's best interests to get the NYS EIS to give them the best protection from drillers possible, at least up to the point where it becomes too expensive to drill. This will probably only delay drilling until the price of NatGas makes it economically feasible (a few years?), or the next Administration (Federal or State) makes it profitable.
But, if there were no EIS and no protection I suspect that either would sign a lease today.

Given the dollars, would anyone else sign a lease?

 

[mbwmn]

-

Come now, didn't uncrowded tell us about how one company will not be drilling in the watershed to safeguard drinking water? Ya' see, they care.
Rolling over because of all the political flak and public outcry so they can concentrate development efforts where they would be productive is about as "caring" as it gets it would seem.


And WHY go on and on about it? I wrote that if indeed it happens it needs to be fixed AND paid for...
I'm not sure it CAN be fixed, and what's it worth ?

BUT they WILL report what is in the FRAC fluid! (You must not have gotten to that section, yet. Well, keep pluggin' along, it's in there).
You assume that the EIS is going to fly as it is, and this will be part of it. I suspect it will change a few more times. Let's both hope that the Fracfluid reporting includes both the chemicals and the percentages.

But it WAS explained. PA DEP said that this mining company has had problems FOR YEARS contributing to high salinity in that river. YEARS. Coal Bed Methane country... remember I said it was a whole different animal?
Oh, I keep forgetting
No. it's I who keep forgetting.
Bad things only happen when drilling everywhere else. Bad things don't ever happen when drilling in the Marcellus, and they will never, ever happen in NY because of the EIS. Drilling the Marcellus, in NY is really not like drilling for anything anywhere else. All those other people, other drillers, other states, THEY WERE ALL DIFFERENT.
I GET it.


Did you not READ uncrowded's posted article? In it it said:

According to DEP, Cabot has thus far fixed five of the eight failed wells; but three still have “insufficient or improper” casings - meaning that methane may still be seeping through the drilled well, thereby into the local aquifer.

Seems that they have accepted responsibility by fixing their poor casing jobs.
And if hey don't fix them, they must plug the wells...
Well, ok then. They'll make it all better. It'll be like it never happened. It's a do-over, and doesn't count!
By the way, this only involved properties within 1300feet of a well. If there were any issues outside 1300feet those don't count.

I didn't catch how many wells Cabot had drilled in PA, and whether or not any of those others were inspected.
Is it really possible they were 0 for 8?

And this shows me that you really don't understand how the sytem works (you know, the one covered by the dgeis). In NY a drilling unit MAY cover up to 640 acres. One square mile. The landowners within that unit would all be notified. The drillers would then drill WITHIN that square mile. They have technology that lets them know exactly where the drill bit is located underground. In the event of a problem, the DEC could find EXACTLY where and when drilling occured near the affected wells. So NO two mile horizontal sections.
And I absolutely feel really good that the driller with 8 bad well casings will limit his well's horizontal distance to keep it within the one square mile. Even though the technology exists to drill several miles horizontally (and know exactly where the drill bit is), and this will allow a well to be refractured many times over (making it way more productive) that driller's a good guy and would NEVER cut any corners or drill any further than permitted, EVEN THOUGH ITS 9000to 11000 fet underground.


AGAIN, if the landowner is in a Drilling Unit, they WILL receive royalties based upon the percentage of their land within the unit. Granted, smaller landowner's may not become rich, but they will recieve compensation for their portion of the gas that was extracted. Smaller landowners who do not enter into leases and become part of a unit will also not have wells drilled on their property or 500 feet (or maybe 330)from their property lines. But of course, they won't have to move away...
Don't worry, we're going to give you a few hundered a year just for listening to all the drilling and gas compression equipment, and breathing in all the toxic fumes. You can buy a new pressure washer to rinse all the dust from the construction and truck traffic off your little cottage. Stop your sniveling, you Democrat! You Socialist...do you think you're the only one with bad well water?


Of course I am; everyone should be. Even those people speaking out aginst drilling here use gas from other parts of the country and continent (but I guess it is ok to screw up their environments?... hypocrites)
I would prefer we got all our environmentally-risky energy from small third world countries (like Iran?). They need our capitalist influences (the dollar's not worth shit now), and who really cares about their pollution?


Thusday is SOYLENT GREEN DAY!

 

[Kilgour Farms]

If they do drill, you stand to make up to a few hundred thousand per year for the remainder of the lease (5-7 years). Then you get to start all over again, although the numbers will probably decrease the second time around...

Once they drill the lease is continued for as long as there is commercial quantities of gas being produced. You receive royalties for the duration of production may last up to 20+ years X 6 wells/unit=$$$$$$$

If they don't drill and you are not in a unit then after the primary term 5-7 years you may seek a lease with any one else, unless there is an extenstion for a secondary term usually at the discretion of the gas company to renew then you will recieve an additional sum of $$$, usually the same amount as the primary term.

The standard now is between 16-22% royalties. Nationally(other plays) its 18-25%

The money is in the royalties not the upfront bonus.

 

[Uncrowded]

See below article from today's Reuters. See you at the rally/hearing tomorrow at NYC!!



Pennsylvania lawsuit says drilling polluted water
Mon Nov 9, 2009 8:10am EST

By Jon Hurdle

AVELLA, Pennsylvania (Reuters) - A Pennsylvania landowner is suing an energy company for polluting his soil and water in an attempt to link a natural gas drilling technique with environmental contamination.

George Zimmermann, the owner of 480 acres in Washington County, southwest Pennsylvania, says Atlas Energy Inc. ruined his land with toxic chemicals used in or released there by hydraulic fracturing.

Water tests at three locations by gas wells on Zimmermann's property -- one is 1,500 feet from his home -- found seven potentially carcinogenic chemicals above "screening levels" set by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency as warranting further investigation.

Jay Hammond, general counsel for Atlas, said Zimmermann's claims are "completely erroneous" and that the company is in compliance with Pennsylvania's gas-drilling regulations. Hammond said Atlas will "vigorously" defend itself in court and declined further comment.

But Zimmermann says he has evidence that chemicals used by Atlas contaminated his land.

"There are substances that can't be made by nature and that's what's in the ground," he told Reuters during an interview in his 12,000-square-foot house on a remote hilltop.

Atlas is exploiting the Marcellus Shale, a vast gas reserve that underlies about two-thirds of Pennsylvania and parts of West Virginia, Ohio and New York State. Experts estimate it contains enough natural gas to meet total U.S. demand for at least a decade.

The gas is being extracted by hydraulic fracturing, or "fracking", in which a mixture of water, sand and chemicals is forced a mile or more underground at high pressure, fracturing the shale and causing the release of natural gas.

Development of the Marcellus, together with other major shale fields in Texas, Louisiana and other states, is being aided by advances in fracking combined with horizontal drilling, which provides more exposure to a formation than a vertical well and leads to less surface disturbance.

If Zimmermann wins his case, it would be the first in America to prove that hydraulic fracturing causes water contamination. Such a finding could slow the development and use of cleaner-burning natural gas that would reduce American dependence on overseas energy.

PERFECT BASELINE TESTS

Baseline tests on Zimmermann's water a year before drilling began were "perfect," he said. In June, water tests found arsenic at 2,600 times acceptable levels, benzene at 44 times above limits and naphthalene five times the federal standard.

Soil samples detected mercury and selenium above official limits, as well as ethylbenzene, a chemical used in drilling, and trichloroethene, a naturally occurring but toxic chemical that can be brought to the surface by gas drilling.

The chemicals can cause many serious illnesses including damage to the immune, nervous and respiratory systems, according to the Endocrine Disruption Exchange, a researcher of the health effects of chemicals used in drilling.

Zimmermann's suit, filed in September in the Washington County Court of Common Pleas and obtained by Reuters, follows claims by residents in many gas-drilling areas of the United States that fracking pollutes private water wells with toxic chemicals and threatens widespread contamination of aquifers from which many rural households draw drinking water.

Although communities as far apart as Pennsylvania and Wyoming complain that their water has become unusable, they have been unable to prove a link to gas drilling. Energy companies refuse to say what chemicals are used in so-called fracking fluid, saying the mixture is proprietary.

Companies are not required to disclose the composition of the fluid because of an exemption to a federal clean water law granted to the oil and gas industry in 2005.

Many local residents have been deterred from fighting the gas companies by the expense of legal action and water testing. Zimmermann says he has spent about $15,000 on water tests and will spend whatever it takes to prove his case.

Rural residents who live near gas drilling say their water has become discolored, foul-smelling, or even flammable because methane from disturbed gas deposits has migrated into water wells.

DEATHS, MUTATION OF LIVESTOCK

Farmers in southwest Pennsylvania blame cattle deaths and mutations on local fracking. Other complaints attributed to tainted water include children's sickness, skin rashes and neurological disorders.

The industry says the chemicals used in fracking are injected through layers of steel and concrete thousands of feet below aquifers, and so pose no threat to drinking water. Spokesman argue there has never been a documented case of water contamination as a result of fracking.

On Zimmermann's property, the presence of water and soil contaminants that exceed EPA screening levels risks wider pollution of drinking water supply, wrote Cleason Smith, a consultant with Hydrosystems Management, which tested the soil and water, in a letter explaining the test results.

Atlas rejected Smith's report, saying in court documents that the findings were inadmissible.

Smith said further tests are needed to confirm the source of contamination but that some chemicals seem to come from fracking or related activity. Benzene, for example, is unlikely to be found on land that was previously forested, he said.

Zimmermann's suit says his land has become "virtually valueless" because it is permanently contaminated with toxic chemicals as a result of the 10 wells that Atlas has drilled.

The suit accuses Atlas -- which is able to drill on the land because it acquired the mineral rights from a previous owner -- of negligence. It is seeking an injunction against further drilling, and unspecified financial damages.

With a wife, an eight-year-old son and eight-month-old twins, Zimmermann, 66, worries about air and water quality.

He said he has invested about $11 million in the estate, which includes a winery and an heirloom-tomato business, but he now just wants to walk away because he believes it has been ruined by gas drilling.

He rates his chances of selling the property as "slim to none" in light of the proven water contamination.

"I don't want to live here any more," Zimmermann said. "I'm afraid of the chemicals."

 

[Kilgour Farms]

Sounds like someone is pissed off because they are only surface owners and they can't reap the rewards from the mineral estate.

Happens a lot. Only time will tell.

Propubica, you have to wonder????

 

[Agust]

Sounds like someone is pissed off because they are only surface owners and they can't reap the rewards from the mineral estate.

Happens a lot. Only time will tell.

Propubica, you have to wonder????

So what you are saying is the poor unaffiliated surface dweller who happens to enjoy being able to drink his well water and bath his children in water that does not contain cancer causing pollution from oil companies should not be allowed to interfere with those of you who are getting rich from mineral rights leases.

Happens a lot. Hopefully the courts will impose an onerous and bankrupting fine on the company that polluted his water. It would establish a precedent that would force the oil companies to act responsibly or perish under fines even they cannot write of as a cost of doing business.

Maybe those who leased the rights to the companies should have their profits attached to the claim, so that folks who lease bear some responsibility for the damage done to their neighbors. That would make things interesting.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Maybe those who leased the rights to the companies should have their profits attached to the claim, so that folks who lease bear some responsibility for the damage done to their neighbors. That would make things interesting.

Or maybe the people who bought the gas and provided the money to the gas company to pay the landowner...

Or maybe the guy at the diner who made the breakfast for the guy who turned the valve...

I'm with you though, increase the cost of production. In addition to making things safer, it will mean more money to the person extracting the expensive gas from his property.

(and of course, I heat with wood )