Oh, as opposed to the Obama Administration actually soliciting the public to report on their neighbors and others directly to the Whitehouse for any "fishy" conversation or emails against the government health care plan.
Give us a try!
Welcome back to the new NEFF. Take a break from Twitter and Facebook. You don't go to Dicks for your fly fishing gear, you go to your local fly fishing store. Enjoy!
It just doesn't stop! This is very disturbing!!!!
- Thread starter CTobias
- Start date
Oh, as opposed to the Obama Administration actually soliciting the public to report on their neighbors and others directly to the Whitehouse for any "fishy" conversation or emails against the government health care plan.
I guess you didn't actually understand what they were trying to do with this. The idea was for anyone confused with some type of propoganda (read: email chain letters) they can forward them to the white house, and the people in the white house will do their best to explain whether the claims are truthful or not. This seems like a hell of an idea, especially with all the misinformation floating around out there.
Oh, as opposed to the Obama Administration actually soliciting the public to report on their neighbors and others directly to the Whitehouse for any "fishy" conversation or emails against the government health care plan.
CTobias
Professional BS'r
I trust the WHO like I trust a drug dealer on the corner. They can be manipulated with money like everyone else.
CTobias
Professional BS'r
Well since the president himself can't explain what is actually in the bill, I don't think some gopher at the white house would be much help.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Great I will send them your contact information..just publish it here and I will forward post haste. My friend please dont tell me your post was even remotely serious. The whitehouse and the dems are actively trying to stamp out any opposing voices. Mr Waxman has just sent a letter to the top 50 insurance companies requesting data on company trips,executive compensation, company parties, etc... These are not companies getting bailout money so why would the gov. ask for this. I bet you know the answer
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
We're all patriots. It would be un-American not to be!
Agreed...and I like the Avatar
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Oh there is no doubt we can do better. I just dont think our government can do better and there is ample proof to the point. Chairman Max Baucus yesterday stated that SSA could be bankrupt in only 2 more years Post office in the last 2 years has posted losses of 2 billion and 7 billion respectively. Real change will come when someone is honest enough to tell the american people that we have been living high off the hog and now the bill is due. We will have a lot of pain over the 5-10 years. We just have to choose what medicine we want to take. We can bite the bullet now and create some real reform or we can continue to spend. Either way its going to be rough.The more we spend the longer it will take to dig ourselves out of this fiscal mess we are in.
They weren't asking for contact info. Just forward the emails. Most people don't know how to use snopes so that would work just as well. When people start talking about death squads, and how the WHO could be influenced just like everybody else, its all conspiracy talk. Always. Tell me - if any organization made up of people can be influenced by money, then NOTHING would be trustworthy and the whole idea of society as we know it would crumble.
Sure, every organization has its bad seeds but when the WHO publishes those rankings it is what it is - correct factual information.
Rumors influencing health care debate - CNN.com
Sure, every organization has its bad seeds but when the WHO publishes those rankings it is what it is - correct factual information.
Rumors influencing health care debate - CNN.com
Just mentioning using Snopes says a mouthful about the factual, er fictional, reliability of your information. Yeah Snopes is the source, oh brother, it's just a friggin' California husband and wife team.:looser:
BTW, my post you originally commented on was in jest back and forth to jlajoie, you can relax there Whitehouse spokesperson.
And like CTobias said, the friggin' President can't even explain it.
BTW, my post you originally commented on was in jest back and forth to jlajoie, you can relax there Whitehouse spokesperson.
And like CTobias said, the friggin' President can't even explain it.
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MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
And you know the WHO data is facually correct because....
CNN...you actually put CNN down. I love it.. At least you didnt quote MSNBC.Com, Let me ask you a question..Did you read the analysis provided by the WHO on this topic. You might find it enlightening to say the least.Finally if you are going to make a comparison of our healthcare against other countries how about you compare it with someone of similar size and diversity of ethnic backgrounds. Riddle me this batman...The health minister of canada came out last week and stated the systems is broken...Shock, Awe, and dismay. This cant be true I mean its universal healthcare it has to work...Not so much.
As for the whtehouse collecting information about so called "false messages on healthcare" all you need to know is that they are shutting it down. I noticed you never sent me your information..What are you hiding
Ill ask you the question since no one esle seems to want to answer it. If the president is on tape in 2003 stating he wants a single payer system and that while it may take 10 or 15 years he wants to see the private insurance companies out of business..how does that jive with his latest statements. When a senator requests details from private insurance companies not part of the bailout how is that not government overstepping its bounds. When you are told that SSA wll be bankrupt in as little as 2 years how do you expect to pay for massive expansion of healthcare? When our post office loses 9 billion in the last 2 years where is the confidence to think our government can even fix out healthcare systems. When David Axelrod worked for the company who is putting out all of the commercials for the obama administrations positive spin on healthcare how is that not making people say whats going on. WHen that same guy is still owed 2 million dollars from that company what does that tell you. Where is the change!!! Where is the transparency?? Where is the media in doing there job reporting on this stuff instead of sticking their nose up the administrations arse?
Anything else you want to chat about??/
WASHINGTON (Aug. 21) -- A new poll says that Americans, concerned over the future of health care reform and anxious about the growing federal budget deficit, are losing faith in President Barack Obama.
The Washington Post-ABC News survey found that less that half of Americans — 49 percent — say they believe the president will make the right decisions for the country. That's down from 60 percent at the 100-day mark of the Obama presidency.
The poll published Friday says Obama's overall approval is 57 percent, 12 points lower than it was at its peak in April. Fifty-three percent disapprove of the way he's handling the budget deficit and his approval on health care continues to deteriorate.
The Washington Post-ABC News survey found that less that half of Americans — 49 percent — say they believe the president will make the right decisions for the country. That's down from 60 percent at the 100-day mark of the Obama presidency.
The poll published Friday says Obama's overall approval is 57 percent, 12 points lower than it was at its peak in April. Fifty-three percent disapprove of the way he's handling the budget deficit and his approval on health care continues to deteriorate.
And you know the WHO data is facually correct because....
CNN...you actually put CNN down. I love it.. At least you didnt quote MSNBC.Com, Let me ask you a question..Did you read the analysis provided by the WHO on this topic. You might find it enlightening to say the least.Finally if you are going to make a comparison of our healthcare against other countries how about you compare it with someone of similar size and diversity of ethnic backgrounds. Riddle me this batman...The health minister of canada came out last week and stated the systems is broken...Shock, Awe, and dismay. This cant be true I mean its universal healthcare it has to work...Not so much.
As for the whtehouse collecting information about so called "false messages on healthcare" all you need to know is that they are shutting it down. I noticed you never sent me your information..What are you hiding
Ill ask you the question since no one esle seems to want to answer it. If the president is on tape in 2003 stating he wants a single payer system and that while it may take 10 or 15 years he wants to see the private insurance companies out of business..how does that jive with his latest statements. When a senator requests details from private insurance companies not part of the bailout how is that not government overstepping its bounds. When you are told that SSA wll be bankrupt in as little as 2 years how do you expect to pay for massive expansion of healthcare? When our post office loses 9 billion in the last 2 years where is the confidence to think our government can even fix out healthcare systems. When David Axelrod worked for the company who is putting out all of the commercials for the obama administrations positive spin on healthcare how is that not making people say whats going on. WHen that same guy is still owed 2 million dollars from that company what does that tell you. Where is the change!!! Where is the transparency?? Where is the media in doing there job reporting on this stuff instead of sticking their nose up the administrations arse?
Anything else you want to chat about??/
See the bold part above. People change their minds, especially when they get more educated about the topic. Maybe the naive Obama back then supported a more radical version of his current plan, but he doesn't anymore. Its like anything else - people evolve. Ideas evolve. What was most likely a retarded, extremist idea he had back then has evolved to much more reasonable overall idea. People are confused about it, because people are retarded. Plain and simple. And theres alot of misinformation around. People should just watch the president and the members of congress and draw their own conclusions. Which by the way, I respect yours just as much as anyone elses.
The previous administration got in trouble when they DIDN'T change, or evolve as the situation warranted. Bush worried about WMDs in Iraq - inspections done, Bush not happy - invasion, etc. And now we find out there was nothing there to worry about? If he had just slowed down, not taken such a hard line, and listened to the people who were supposed to be doing their jobs, alot of blood shed could have been avoided (on both sides - US / coalition and Iraq).
I'm much happier with an adminisitration in office that are trying to be this open and forthcoming about their new idea. This is a new idea, and I can't remember any time in the last 20 years where there was this much coverage and reporting and TV time given to a political idea. Which is what it is still - just an idea, not a bill, nothing to be voted on. Just reform ideas that are not perfect and need to be tweaked by concerned, educated citizens with differing opinions.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Respectfully this is not about the evolution of Barrack Obama and in fact what is being debated is an early bill from the house..not an idea... or a concept. It would be wonderful to believe the president has evolved his thinking since 2003 but the concept of socialized government in this country has been around since the 20s and probably earlier. He has adhered to many of the principles of socialization for much of his adult life. His mentors are adherents to this cause. Many of his key advisors are propoents of socialization. He may be massaging his message due to the backlash that has occurred but that doesnt equate to evolving his thought process.
You only have to look to the previous administration to see a new idea come out about entitlement programs. The Bush administration pushed for reform around Social Security. Whether you agreed with the concept or not it was clearly a new idea.
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MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Latest figures for the 10 year projection of our deficits. Note the differenc between congress and the president. One assumes your tax-cuts expire for everyone and the other assumes the cuts expire only for those making 250k or more. Wait I thought only the rich got a tax break!!!
look this tells you all you need to know about our situation. More importantly is that the projections are based on our economy growing at a clip north of 5% which is not what many economists expect. In other words its likely to be worse. A real leader would get on TV and tell the american people the truth. We need to stop spending money we dont have. We need to cut programs and pay down our debt. Otherwise we leave a disaster for our kids and grandkids.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32551518/ns/politics-white_house/
look this tells you all you need to know about our situation. More importantly is that the projections are based on our economy growing at a clip north of 5% which is not what many economists expect. In other words its likely to be worse. A real leader would get on TV and tell the american people the truth. We need to stop spending money we dont have. We need to cut programs and pay down our debt. Otherwise we leave a disaster for our kids and grandkids.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32551518/ns/politics-white_house/
Kilgour Farms
I took the one less traveled by
You destroy the ecomony so you can rebuild it from scratch. The economy goes belly up so people have to look to big government for help. It happened once before in the 1930's in Germany.
Hopefully Americans are smarter then that.
Congress/executive branch didn't even write the healthcare bill. What are we paying them for, it was written by the Apollo Alliance.
Hopefully Americans are smarter then that.
Congress/executive branch didn't even write the healthcare bill. What are we paying them for, it was written by the Apollo Alliance.
Dr. Gonzo
Stuck in my cabana, livin on bananas and blow.
While I agree with the cause for concern regarding national spending I'm not so sure I agree with your historical analogy. Germany was overwhelmed and crippled by economic forces imposed on it by the Allies in the Treaty of Versailles. The reparations that it was forced to pay crippled the economy and destroyed the social fabric of the country. Hitler was an opportunist who took advantage of the conditions caused by these outside forces. Maybe I misinterpreted but you seem to be suggesting that economic collapse was orchestrated to drum up support for "big government."
Also isn't the Apollo Alliance an energy enterprise working on green jobs and economic recovery? I see the obvious link to the stimulus bill but I don't see anything related to healthcare.
I'm not necessarily supportive of healthcare reform in its current form. It doesn't seem to control costs effectively, and I'm not convinced that government is the solution but there is clearly a problem with the current system. Rising costs, burdening employers with paying for it, the danger that people who lose their jobs will be unable to see a doctor, the ability of insurance companies to drop someone once they are diagnosed with a serious illness are all real problems that need to be resolved.
It would be nice if the politicians who are opposed to the current legislation would participate in a constructive debate and offer some kind of counter proposal to what is currently on the table. Instead we get fear mongering, lies and misinformation. It would also be nice if the politicians holding the majority would avoid the temptation to ignore the minority and just put whatever they want in the bill because they know they have the votes to pass it regardless. But I guess that's probably because they're politicians and they care more about getting reelected and getting donations to their campaigns than actually displaying some semblance of integrity or ethics.
Personally I don't think partisan politics should be involved in the debate. We all need healthcare. And we all face the same risks if we lose our jobs, our coverage, or are denied treatment by a company trying to increase its profit margins. There has got to be a way to resolve the problems we see without going too far in any direction.
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
eddavidson9
how's that for a slice of fried gold
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
One thing this highlights in my mind is the comparison of these countries to the U.S. is often way out of context. Taking that into account its not a matter of if Healthcare needs to happen its a matter of how. Also realize that things that can be done 5 million or 10 million or 50 million or in the case of Japan 125 million dont necessarily hold true when you go to 300 million. Also in the case of Japan you have one clear advantage. They have a very limited diversity within their population. This gives them much more certainty in the treatment of their population.
eddavidson9
how's that for a slice of fried gold
I dont think these comparisons are at all out of context, or rather, i dont think we need to "qualify" these comparisons. The point I take from it is the only system worse than what we currently have is no system at all. Opponents of the bill under discussion irresponsibly use myth to propogate their opinion. Whether its this bill or something completely different, i think this article helps make the point that there is a lot of irrational fear of change and change is needed in health insurance/health care administration in the US. Mac, lets focus on implemementing these "absolutely sound reforms" you mention. If there are "better" alternatives, we should be advocating for them, not simply shooting down other viable* options with marginal arguments**.
*I understand you will likely take offense with "viable"
**Cost is not a marginal argument
*I understand you will likely take offense with "viable"
**Cost is not a marginal argument
eddavidson9
how's that for a slice of fried gold
define significantly. is this not representative of conditions everywhere? (edit; not being argumentative, im just not familiar with the job marketplace anywhere other than here)
also, what are the implications within this discussion?
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
The implications are that we are making comparisons on healthcare and everyone seems to believe the grass is greener in other countries but lets face it if things were so much more wonderful in these countries than there would be a mass exodus of folks from this country. In fact there is not a mass exodus. Furthermore its not as rosy everyone would like to believe. In Germany you have workers council (roughly analagous to unions). You cant just lay folks off. You have to offer packages. These packages are quite lucrative and yet many do not take packages because they realize the employment situation is quite difficult after a certain age. We clearly have challenges with our healthcare in the U.S. We just differ on how to address it. I'm sure there are solutions abroad that could be adopted but I definitely do not believe our government should be engaged in providing healthcare. Frankly our politicians have not earned our trust to manage our taxes appropriately. Finally we are in an awful financial situation so as I have said before its noble to want to provide healthcare to everyone but its clearly not financially feasible in our current state of affairs. The government should earn the confidence of the american people by more effectively managing the taxes we pay. Show how they can reduce costs first and still deliver quality care. Clean up the waste and fraud and abuse of our taxes across the board. Heck provide an incentive. For every 10 dollars of wasteful spending they recover, half can be set aside for healthcare reform.
Lets face it for every positive example of healthcare implemented overseas there are also a good number of negative examples that have been shown. Government run healthcare at the state level has also been shown to have issues. The latest example in Oregon shows that government rationing can and will happen. Massachussetts has significant budget issues related to mismanagement of costs of the state healthcare plan. The current administration re-instituted the end of life handbook for veterans. Have a look at some of the topics covered in that snappy read.
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CTobias
Professional BS'r
NJDrew
Pro Tippet Destroyer...
Feds slap Pfizer with $2.3B fine:
"Federal prosecutors hit Pfizer with a record-breaking $2.3 billion in fines yesterday and called the world's largest drug maker a repeat offender for using illegal drug promotions that plied doctors with free golf, massages and resort junkets."
Feds slap Pfizer with $2.3B fine - NJ.com
That sucks for Pfizer, that they had to be the ones who where made example of, but dont play if you can't afford to pay. At this point they are now weak enough for take over/merger.
"Federal prosecutors hit Pfizer with a record-breaking $2.3 billion in fines yesterday and called the world's largest drug maker a repeat offender for using illegal drug promotions that plied doctors with free golf, massages and resort junkets."
Feds slap Pfizer with $2.3B fine - NJ.com
That sucks for Pfizer, that they had to be the ones who where made example of, but dont play if you can't afford to pay. At this point they are now weak enough for take over/merger.
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Drossi
If they can't take joke .....'em
I have a family member in the medical supply business. He's told me more than once about certain companies will pay for the doctors to take trips to Russia to "try out" mail order brides. :down:
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Summer Break Must be over.. Now that Congress is getting back to the debate I guess we will follow suit on NEFF. Regarding the 2.3billion dollar fine..I wonder where the government will spend that money...Perhaps its going to fund the Cash For Clunkers Program