How Do You Rate a Rod??

[Simms]

You're a nasty spirited, vulgar punk, nothing more. Why else would you cast the first stone when you were never insulted? Because you like to insult anyone who threatens your pea sized brain? Or, perhaps it is acually you who has nothing better to do. I'm glad your true colors have shined during this post. You're def. a class A trout nazi or trouser trout or whatever it is you identify with.

I just get a kick out of you and your posts, acting as an all knowing god. Hey, while the bells on your door stay idle, can you bang out some of my law school homework for me? I am swamped.

 

[Trouser Trout]

The Anderson test is nothing new. The entire rod building industry PERPETUATED and INVENTED it over ten years befor his post was made. I clearly stated that the test we use is NOTHING NEW. Try reading.

You're a nasty spirited, vulgar punk, nothing more. Why else would you cast the first stone when you were never insulted? Because you like to insult anyone who threatens your pea sized brain? Or, perhaps it is acually you who has nothing better to do. I'm glad your true colors have shined during this post. You're def. a class A trout nazi or trouser trout or whatever it is you identify with.

What does this mean? "You're def. a class A trout nazi or trouser trout or whatever it is you identify with." And, am I too employ this concept when selecting my next rod?

 

[Trout Nazi]

He can do your homework, as long as you don't mind that it will all be plagiarized. Thats allowed in law school, right?

 

[Simms]

He can do your homework, as long as you don't mind that it will all be plagiarized. Thats allowed in law school, right?

Touche, my friend, touche.

 

[golden beetle]

Catskillkid; how many people do you employ?

Would you consider hiring a disorganized trout bum?

Like me?

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 PM ----------

Are you George?

I will forward you my resume. That is, if you're George.

 

[CatskillKid]

If you were up for a phone interview, we could certainly talk ok. Based on your experience in retail and your passion for Fishing, I would be willing to discuss whatever positions were open at the time of your interest ok.

---------- Post added at 12:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 AM ----------

He can do your homework, as long as you don't mind that it will all be plagiarized. Thats allowed in law school, right?

Cowen Cowherd made a comment on ESPN Radio the other day about trolls who live in chat rooms and that he avoids them because they are primarily concerned with wrecking other people's quality of life. You seem to be one of these individuals. Based on your avatar (a punk probably still in diapers) shining a "lazer" beam and a proud statement claiming "BANG GOES THE DYNAMITE" I can see that you are exactly the type of person Mr. Cowherd was illuding to. I can't recall reading one noteworthy thing you've posted.

And what makes you think those who run retail businesses WOULDN'T implement and use any test they like to buy, rate and ultimately sell product. You're too busy terding in your pants and insulting people to see that and you celarly don't have the attention span to see reason or logic. Because you don't have the attention span to actually read a post entirely, you failed to notice that I spoke directly about the Anderson tests in an earlier thread, commenting that I noticed he used testers who had a hand in actually developing some of the rods tested, yet my staff and I found the tests they conducted to be in line with our own tests. Why don't you get a diaper change, charge up your laser beam and then just do the fly fishing world a favor, vaporize yourself and your closest bully buddies. You're truly an infant. I bet you don't even have a job, let alone a fly rod of your own.

---------- Post added at 01:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 AM ----------

We're going to be testing 9' 9 weights this coming monday. We will be using our standard test. I would be curious to hear opinions from genuine human beings with a sense of fellowship only (meaning Simms, Trouser Trout and The kid with doo-doo in his drawers, why don't you make your own posts/threads and talk to each other about new products you wish your mommies would buy you, since you can't contribute anytyhing of value because you're so immature and too busy with your homework for Law School, AS IF, to actually read or appreciate more in depth posts) as to what you think of the test itself. Please give some reasons for your opinions ok, so we can consider and discuss.

We use all the usual categories common in the industry except when it comes to the actual casting categories. We test with a floating line AND a sink tip line at 0 to 40 feet which adds 15 more feet to the first test category. The two scores are then averaged. We do this for typical river fishing applications for customers who salmon fish or fish in close off jetties.

The next category is 40 to 70 feet and we use floating and intermediate line for this test. Our belief is that these two lines will be most commonly used at these distances. The scores are then averaged.

The final category is 70 feet and out and we use a floating, an intermediate and also a Teeny 300 (25 foot head, not the 50) as we feel these two lines will be most use at these distances. The three scores are then averaged.

We're picking rods to test this weekend, so if you would like a particular rod or rods to be in the test, please let me know and I'll try to get it in or at least find out why it wasn't included.

I'm sure we're pouring over the rods below at this point, obviously we're going to eliminate some before we test. Did I forget any rods you'd like to see tested?

Loomis NRX
Loomis Cross Current GLX
Loomis Native Run GLX
Loomis Experience
Sage Xi3
Sage TCX
Sage Z-Axis
Sage VT2
Sage Flight
Sage Vantage
Winston BL 5
Winston B3 X
Orvis Helios
Orvis TLS
Scott X2 S
Scott X4 S
St. Croix Legend Ultra
St. Croix Legend Elite
St. Croix Avid
St. Croix Imperial
St. Croix Rio Grande
TFO Axiom
TFO Ticr X
Redington Predator
Redington CPX
Hardy Zane Saltwater
Albright GPX
Albright XXT
Lamiglass Traveler
Greys Platinum XD

 

[redietz]

We use all the usual categories common in the industry except when it comes to the actual casting categories. We test with a floating line AND a sink tip line at 0 to 40 feet which adds 15 more feet to the first test category. The two scores are then averaged. We do this for typical river fishing applications for customers who salmon fish or fish in close off jetties.

I don't have a lot of experience with 9 weights, so these are random thoughts:

Would you then recommend against the rods that do poorly in this part of the test, but do well in the distance categories to someone who was expressly looking for a rod for the flats, where the ability to cast a long way, quickly, was paramount?

Have you that considered that someone who needed a nine because of the size of quarry, but needed only short casts, might upweight the line to a ten -- especially if he also wanted a rod that handled longer distances (with a nine line.)

Does the length of the sink tip make a difference?

Something I've been curious about for a long time, but line weights are based on the first thirty feet of line. Should a rod's nominal weight be based on that thirty feet when the rod is designed to cast 70 feet? Or is it, in fact? It seems to be that with different shooting heads, you would want rod in higher weight categories to handle a range of actual weights. How are rods actually rated for line weight in these sizes?

 

[SneakyPete]

I'm wondering why the Orvis Hydros or Access 909-4 didn't make the list???? I'm new when it comes to 9wts myself, but is their a reason that these rods wont be tested???? Any feed back on those rods would be great....

 

[redietz]

One other question - how to you test performance in the wind if there isn't any on the day you test?

 

[Trouser Trout]

I don't think that most fly casters "rate" their rods, this entire thread is an attempt to create a science where one does not exist for most fly casters.

 

[redietz]

I don't think that most fly casters "rate" their rods, this entire thread is an attempt to create a science where one does not exist for most fly casters.

I don't think it's possible to rate a rod in the sense that "this rod is better than that rod".

It should be possible, however, to come up with a set of standard ways of describing the difference characteristics of a rod to help someone determine if that rod is suitable to his purposes. You've got the obvious things, like length and line weight (although as I said above, I'm not even sure that line weight means the same thing to different manufacturers.) Some other things are objectively testable
such as where the rod flexes, and how much it weighs. I'm unsure that "swing weight" as he defined it is meaningful (although I'd never heard it quantified that way, so it may be), although for sure two rods that weigh the same can require different amounts of work to cast depending on how the weight is distributed. (Simple principle of a lever, if nothing else.)

There are also some subjective, but still easy to "know it when you see" criteria, such as workmanship and quality of components that are nice to know about when you're considering a rod, as well.

The problem with the system he describes is that is rigged to define a fast rod to be "better" than a slower one, and I think this ties directly to how the manufacturers want to market their rod. To be sure, for some uses faster is better than slower, and for most of the time you want to use a 9 weight, which is what he's talking about here, faster is better. It's just not true for most trout rods. There's a reason that a classic bamboo rod from a famous maker may be worth thousands of dollars in a trout weight, but a tarpon rod by the same maker is just about worthless.

The system also fails to take into account the ability of the caster. It doesn't ask whether the rod is suitable for a beginner, or is such that it only comes alive in the hands of a tournament caster. I'm sure that everyone who's cast a number of different rods will have encountered some that cast great as long as you're paying full attention to getting the cast right, but under actual fishing conditions where you're paying attention to other things ("can't take my eyes off where that fish just rose, how often is it rising?") it's frustrating as all get out to cast.

Still, it's interesting to know what value the industry puts on the various characteristics, and what to read into advertising claims.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Well, just got back from changing my diapers, time to wreck your quality of life, which by the way as a statement, is so way out of context, guessing your level of education is not too high. I'll try to keep things simple so you can understand.

Now, on to your heavy-handed attempt to create that expert internet persona, that your failing so miserably at. Why, oh why, Mr. Retail guru, are you testing the VT2 and TLS, both are discontinued and should be in your bargain bin, no? Your credibility (assuming you had any) continues to erode. You should have a VXP, and as someone else has mentioned, a Hydros in there as well, no? I may not have a fly rod of my own and be in diapers, but I would think a retail EXPERT like yourself would figure out that those 2 rods would be cross-shopped directly against each other.

We amateurs eagerly await the outcome of this test, the results of which will be no big surprise to anyone who even has half an interest in this sport. Good thing you have alot staff members there, lots of fingers and toes for you to use as you try and add up all those scores. Big math happening this weekend, big math.

 

[Trout Nazi]

I don't think that most fly casters "rate" their rods, this entire thread is an attempt to create a science where one does not exist for most fly casters.

This entire thread is an attempt to boost someones ego, thats why it sucks.

Bottom line is most rod comparisons are good to just get you in the ball park, at the end of the day buy what casts best in your hands. This is like trying to rate something like guitars. At the end of the day how do you compare a Strat vs. a Les Paul vs. an Ibanez? And then, guys like Vai, Eric Johnson, and Satch are going to sound awsome on a $100 piece of crap.

---------- Post added at 08:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 PM ----------

This system is rigged towards faster action rods. Faster action rods usually occupy the premier position in a rod makers line up is part of the reason they're the ones reviewed as well. Case in point is the BIIx. It always gets beat up in these reviews, but if you shift your expectations towards a medium action rod, its awesome. The reviews also don't capture the fact that is also a great streamer stick.

 

[golden beetle]

I think I'm the only sane mf'er on the board when it comes to the Catskillkid.

IF he is a big businessman, then I want to work for him.

What better job for a trout bum?

Don't ever offend a future employer, don't burn bridges. This guy could employ us ALL if he is the real deal.

 

[coolkyle]

This was such a lovely weekend. I'm happy to say I spent Saturday rating my 3-weight. The rod did very well, though I didn't catch any trout. The rod rating trips get shorter and further in between with winter approaching, as I begin to focus my attention on analyzing the quality of my hooks and vise.

 

[CatskillKid]

This was such a lovely weekend. I'm happy to say I spent Saturday rating my 3-weight. The rod did very well, though I didn't catch any trout. The rod rating trips get shorter and further in between with winter approaching, as I begin to focus my attention on analyzing the quality of my hooks and vise.

As it should be kyle! What flies will you be focusing on this winter?

---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 AM ----------

Well, just got back from changing my diapers, time to wreck your quality of life, which by the way as a statement, is so way out of context, guessing your level of education is not too high. I'll try to keep things simple so you can understand.

Now, on to your heavy-handed attempt to create that expert internet persona, that your failing so miserably at. Why, oh why, Mr. Retail guru, are you testing the VT2 and TLS, both are discontinued and should be in your bargain bin, no? Your credibility (assuming you had any) continues to erode. You should have a VXP, and as someone else has mentioned, a Hydros in there as well, no? I may not have a fly rod of my own and be in diapers, but I would think a retail EXPERT like yourself would figure out that those 2 rods would be cross-shopped directly against each other.

We amateurs eagerly await the outcome of this test, the results of which will be no big surprise to anyone who even has half an interest in this sport. Good thing you have alot staff members there, lots of fingers and toes for you to use as you try and add up all those scores. Big math happening this weekend, big math.

Regarding the four venemous insults in your most recent post: No comment.

I've concluded my test of your character. I apologize for testing you, but it was kind of my final determination as to what kind of poster you actually are. Here's how you scored: You responded to a fight fire with fire, insult laden, mean spirited reply with more of the same. Your reply to intentional, mean spirited provocation (deliberate retaliation) shows you are 67 percent wholly comitted to being an internet bully. However, 32 percent of you is full of excellent points.

Have you ever tried to eat the good parts of a mostly rotten apple? It's worth it but not when there are other better apples next to it in the bin. So, why bother with it? Using this analogy, which is pretty fair in characerizing your behavior, I'm going to politely suggest that if my test score is accurate, that you separate yourself and your friends (you know who you are boys!) into a bin of those with similar interests and agendas. I'm willing to admit, I may be wrong about you. But I'm calling you out in public and I will leave you with the option to either stay or go, after all that is entirely your right as a member of a fully public forum.

Obviously, we could play this game all day, but it doesn't serve a purpose, in that I'm here in the spirit of finding out which products are the best. It isn't enough for me to say that all these new rods are neat, but these ones get a thumbs up. It's just not detailed enough for my tastes and in order to sell large quantities of rods, I really need to know which one is the absolute best, which one is second and so forth. I actually need a generic, standard test to do this. We can then sell a rod for a specific purpose and be assured that the customer buying the rod has our 100 percent unbiased opinion and the knowledge that they just laid some money on the counter for soemthing they can reasonably expect to be everything we've told them it would be. Obviously, we don't have a lot of returns for this reason. Beyond that, I don't really care what rods folks chose to buy...as long as they're happy that's all that matters. You may think I have something to gain by influencing folks as to what to buy. But you need to realize that it doesn't matter. We sell it all (literally) and the customers will buy something. Whatever THAT is, who knows. I'm not trying to influence them to buy what I approve or disapprove. I'm really not.

As I clearly stated countless times already, each angler can and will weight qualities of a rod against others. Some anglers are simply loyal to a particular brand. Some anglers view cost vs. certain other categories (as I've defined them here in this post). Some anglers fish in close. Some fish at various distances. Some throw tiny objects a long way. To each their own. I don't wish to be seen as an expert (I've already said this too, several times). Truly, I don't consider other posters here or other fly fishermen to be inferior to my mighy opinions. We are all fishermen, nothing more.

Heck, I buy certain rods for myself too. That's also why I'm here by the way, as I've already stated more than once. I'm here out of passion for the sport. I have the guts to actually post tons of factual information based on our test results. We use the best tests we can possibly devise to help us understand our sport and the products that are available for us to use. I fish over 200 days a year and I take a few trips to far away places as well. But I have to spend money for a rod too AND I have to use it, like it and find it to be a value. Normally, I sell off whatever rods I outgrow but as I age like a fine wine, I try to avoid accumulating rods that I won't use. At some point, if I'm happy with a rod, I will just keep it forever. My Hardy Superlite 9' 4 weight is like that. I just like it. My Hardy Perfection Glass 7'6" 4 weight is like that. My Sage SLT 10' 8 wight is like that. My Sage SLT 9' 4 weight is like that. My Orvis Superfine 7'9" 2 Weight is like that. My Loomis Stream Dance Metolius 8'3" 3 Weight is like that. My Loomis Naitive Run GLX 10' 9 Weight is like that. My Sage ZXL's and Z Axis rods are going to probably become like that. Could you pry them away from me? I'd prefer not to think about that. My favorite surf rods, boat spinning and conventional rods are like that as well. All of my favorite reels are also like this.

So, I've lost interest in playing the internet troll game of insulting back and forth all day. Let me ask you, politely this time, to please focus your energy to make some useful posts of your own and consider, if you must be in my posts, to be civil. If you find posts that I create to be too long or if you don't actually read them and notice the points made, why comment at all? Unless...you're here to do the types of things Cowherd illuded to 67 percent of the time.

Regarding the two actual points made in your post: I'm assuming you don't think the VT2 or the TLS should be in the test? We had them in on the grounds that, based on sales from the past 5 years, many who are very happy with these two rods would enjoy seeing them directly compared to some of the newer rods that are out. Do you think this is a horrible, roten idea that should prove to the world that I'm a raving mad-man who should take credibility courses at a local community college right away? If you really, sincerely do, might just succinctly acknowledge our perfectly sound reason and dare me to take them out and narrow the field to only the absolute newest rods. I will save you the trouble and let you know that we're considering doing that. Normally we do pair down the field. Also, once we get a score for a rod, this score doesn't really change in 5 years. The rod is what it is. We already have scores for these two rods by the way.

As for the VXP and Hydros, I noticed the fly shop staff had them in the rods to be considered when I looked at their list yesterday. Those in direct charge will make the final decisions and I will back them of course, but you made a valid point thinking each should be in the field. I didn't include the Hydros because I took it to be a scaled down premium rod, which is, as you point out by wanting it included, a very good reason to include it actually. As for the VXP, since it's the new VT2, why not throw her in too! Though rod is of little interest to me personally (EEKS, I just slammed a Sage rod) based on the cost (very high) for a rod that isn't a quite a premium rod and is purportedly fast and therefore less versitile, I didn't think to even put it on my list. My staff (and you) chose to disagree, so rest assured it's in there.

---------- Post added at 12:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------

I think I'm the only sane mf'er on the board when it comes to the Catskillkid.

IF he is a big businessman, then I want to work for him.

What better job for a trout bum?

Don't ever offend a future employer, don't burn bridges. This guy could employ us ALL if he is the real deal.

You may actually be the only sane person here. It's not for me to say. Why would anyone ever burn a bridge either? It's a very poor decsision to do this on a personal or professional level.

Manufacturer's pull endorsements when someone in real life actually evaluates them objectively against the competition. Employers fire a person for doing that. I've seen it so many times I just shake my head. People with vested interests who make a living ednorsing certain products become Crusaders against voices of reason when they stand to suffer potential losses in business (small scale full line dealers, endorsed guides who actually HAVE to use certain products, small businessmen who can't carry a wide range of similar items due to small volume..etc.

You should consider that me being here will natually draw these folks to stand against me. Don't think I didn't anticipate this. I really don't mind it either as it's inevitable.

As for potentially employing some of the folks here, this may come to be a reality, it may not. We already know that a few possible future employees spend their time in chat rooms. The real question is how many of those potential employees would be viable, and what percentage of them would be most likely to suceed?

It is a known fact that 87 percent of all correctly placed candidates who fail in the first year, fail because of their relationship with their immediate superior. Assuming 10 candidates fit your employment criteria (and this would eliminate an overwhelming number of candidates) the choices an employer actually makes should place that candidate into a situation in which the person would be most likely to succeed. An interview is a very important thing, both to an employer and to a perspective employee.

All interviews are also lies. Both candidates and employers lie. Some lie fraudulently. Some lie to make themselves look better. And others lie because it's actually the right thing to do (as they see it) in a given situation. Those who don't lie tend to be skilled manipulators. ie: Mary at work gets a new haircut. She asks Ted if he likes it. Ted answers, wow! Where'd you get it done? He actually didn't want to lie and hurt her feelings. He didn't like the haircut, but he is hoping to manipulate Mary to go off course and protect himself from HAVING to tell a lie. She doesn't bite. She tells him where she got it done and asks again. If he keeps beating around the bush, she'll realize he hates it and be hurt. So...He chooses to tell a lie. Boom. He's not an insensitive bastard. An interviewer can't hold a person who tells these kinds of lies accountable and eliminate him from contention.

All interviews are scripted. Most employers ask pre canned questions in order to be consistent. If we interview 25 candidates, asking them all the same questions becomes necessary in order to go back over information after the interviews have concluded. For this reason, good interviewers make notes, with a candidates permission of course. (We wouldn't want to candidate to be offended? no. We want them to be at ease. If they actually give permission, they will be more at ease and less on gaurd. An on gaurd candidate is more likely to be more defensive in the interest of self preservation. A good interviewer gets the candidate to open up because placing the candidate into a situation in which they are most likely to succeed is in the best interests of the business, as well as in the candidate.

A skilled interview also uses a pre-canned question to take a candidate far, far off course from a scripted answer. If a standard question like Why is customer service important is asked, you'll get an answer the candidate most likely has already rehersed in their mind. But, using the rolling w's (who, what, where, why and when) repeatedly and often each time the candidate responds will quickly tell you what you both want and sometimes NEED to know.

Inretail, there are many things you might not think are needed that actually are FAR more important than expertise. I look for candidates that would function well with their immediate superiors. I hold managers accountable for performing at very high levels. For this reason, employees with a low sense of urgency will absolutely not succeed. For this reason, I ask a candiate to follow me as we walk some place. I walk quickly. If they don't keep up, I don't hire them.

Also, candidates who quickly get off track on a simple question generally don't get hired as well. Understanding that retail is business requires employees who truly don't mind picking up a sales floor often throughout the day and at the end of the night. Many customers drop things, put things on the wrong peg...etc. Think about a fly bin. Would you want to find a Conover in a Vitreus Emerger compartment? No. It's bush league.

There is a very limited space of time available in a day. An employer needs employees who can work quickly, stay on task and come back on task after they have given a customer 100 percent of the attention that customer deserves and needs. Sales skills are HUGE as well. Getting into a converstation witch each customer is critical. Quick hi can I help you's don't cut it. That's not how you sell. Meeting, greeting, making someone feel welcome and valued are very, very important.

In general, this information weeds out a very high percentage of fly fishermen from actually working and succeeding in retail. Then, there's money. Do you think working in retail pays good money? Let me save you from a possible illusion if you do: no. A very select few rise to the top and actually get paid accordingly. It rarely, if EVER, happens right away. Percent to sales dicates payroll an to be profitable, it is necessary to run a business with a pre set payroll percentage that fluctuates on yearly trends. All the while, the employer is looking to gain market share by increasing same day sales from last year.

Go ask a guy at the local shop how much he gets an hour if you don't believe me. Good Retail Employees are there because they like retail and understand the pay, they have a ton of passion, they want discounts on product and they truly like people.

Last point. what does it matter to me if a small percentage of internet personalities dislike me or engage conversation aimed at assessing whether I'm credible or not? I'm the one who's doing nothing but succeeding by operating in the industry in a DOWN ECONOMY, I'm hugely up.

Why? and Is this a surprise to anyone? It shouldn't be. During the great depression, when almost all retailers were badly down, fishing businesses actually managed to stay in business. To do this, that is to say they made money in an economy that was WAY worse than it is today. Fishermen are going to fish. Some will fish for the sport of it. Some will fish because they're out of work and these folks will fish all the more. Some will fish to eat. Some will tighten their purses and be more frugal. But you're not going to stop the public from fishing. Sure, clothing sales may drop. Rod sales may plummet. But a wise business simply adapts and responds to economic trends.

---------- Post added at 12:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 PM ----------

I don't think it's possible to rate a rod in the sense that "this rod is better than that rod".

It should be possible, however, to come up with a set of standard ways of describing the difference characteristics of a rod to help someone determine if that rod is suitable to his purposes. You've got the obvious things, like length and line weight (although as I said above, I'm not even sure that line weight means the same thing to different manufacturers.) Some other things are objectively testable
such as where the rod flexes, and how much it weighs. I'm unsure that "swing weight" as he defined it is meaningful (although I'd never heard it quantified that way, so it may be), although for sure two rods that weigh the same can require different amounts of work to cast depending on how the weight is distributed. (Simple principle of a lever, if nothing else.)

There are also some subjective, but still easy to "know it when you see" criteria, such as workmanship and quality of components that are nice to know about when you're considering a rod, as well.

The problem with the system he describes is that is rigged to define a fast rod to be "better" than a slower one, and I think this ties directly to how the manufacturers want to market their rod. To be sure, for some uses faster is better than slower, and for most of the time you want to use a 9 weight, which is what he's talking about here, faster is better. It's just not true for most trout rods. There's a reason that a classic bamboo rod from a famous maker may be worth thousands of dollars in a trout weight, but a tarpon rod by the same maker is just about worthless.

The system also fails to take into account the ability of the caster. It doesn't ask whether the rod is suitable for a beginner, or is such that it only comes alive in the hands of a tournament caster. I'm sure that everyone who's cast a number of different rods will have encountered some that cast great as long as you're paying full attention to getting the cast right, but under actual fishing conditions where you're paying attention to other things ("can't take my eyes off where that fish just rose, how often is it rising?") it's frustrating as all get out to cast.

Still, it's interesting to know what value the industry puts on the various characteristics, and what to read into advertising claims.

In my opinion, this is the best post I've read from you yet. I very much enjoyed reading it. Well done. I fully agreed with much of what you said and I found that you put it very intelligently. I chose the crux of your critiques and here is my response to two of the points you've made:

The problem with the system he describes is that is rigged to define a fast rod to be "better" than a slower one...How so? There are 60 points available to any and all rods that are not performance related. A well made slow rod that is priced right and is made by a company best comitted to thier customer base could smoke the competition. Also, a rod designed to fish well at all three distances in the performace categories might not be what a slow rod enthuiast wants, so they may chose to weigh the 0 to 25 foot category with much more clout. Lastly, why cant rod that fishes wonderfully in close also be good at longer distances and thus be more versatile. All they need is the right taper and engineering.

The next point I'm responding to is...The system also fails to take into account the ability of the caster. We use a range of casters each time we conduct a test. The casters are all fairly good, with some being flat out dirty. We think that any good rod, slow or fast, will present an opportunity for a beginner to grow into it, while at the same time being easy to learn with. It's a proven fact that a more forgiving rod (meaning, less fast of a taper) is easier for a beginner. However, when a beginner test casts three or four rods, he usually makes a choice in conjunction with the facts as we present them. We also believe it is possible to make a claim that this particular rod was best in our sophisticated test, one which is common for good fly shops to conduct. When we outfit a customer with a rod, we very much take into consideration what the customer is going to be doing with the rod and, having intimate knowledge of how these rods perform, we are able to hit "bingo" or "paydirt" as I call it. For this reason, I don't have a group of beginners or intermediate testers participate. Let me ask you a question. Does car and driver magazine use a Driver's Ed. class to select their Test Drivers with?

We're trying to push each rod as far as it can go. Beginners and Intermediates can't do that. But some day, they hopefully will do this and a rod ought to be a satisfying investment on thier part.

---------- Post added at 01:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 PM ----------

I'm wondering why the Orvis Hydros or Access 909-4 didn't make the list???? I'm new when it comes to 9wts myself, but is their a reason that these rods wont be tested???? Any feed back on those rods would be great....

I will ask for the Access to be included if possible. The test has been delayed due to my request that I'd like to participate and I am taking the next few days off to go steelheading.

---------- Post added at 01:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------

Hmmm. Another excellent post. Stock Up. Here's my comments:

The test again is looking for how versitile the rod is, among the other standard factors like Craftsmanship..etc. The flats angler will be looking at how the rod faired with floating line at all distances, the mid range and longer distances being most important. He'll presumabley weight this category as much more important.

We don't consider or "test" the rod's ability to perform with a variety of different weighted lines. Though, a load board would give us an idea of what a rod can and can't do and let us measure at what point a rod's loop collapses. It's funny that you mention this though because we're setting a load board up in the warehouse. We're still researching them and finding out how to easily use one to help us characerize and measure a rod when we test. The problem we're having, from a philosophical standpoint, is can we rate this as a category or give it any points? How does a rod with two different loads rate as better or worse as it depends on the application of the fisherman. We may simply note max load on the fact tag so a decerning angler who's looking for that an see it. Obviously, we really want the load board to help us pick fly lines for all of our rods that we sell and we think it will help us match casting appliacations and avoid ambiguity when we talk about overlining.

The sink tip length makes a difference to the fisherman but doesn't factor in our test. He can use longer or shorter depending on his desired application. We specifically state that length of the tip in the test used.

The length will most certainly affect the rods performance plus or minus as it will potentially change the gram weight the caster is asking the rod to handle. Remember, the category is supposed to be generic and our specific comments will allow the caster room to apply his own needs and form a starting point to base his assumptions on.

For the last part of your post, I had to copy it here to give it justice: Something I've been curious about for a long time, but line weights are based on the first thirty feet of line. Should a rod's nominal weight be based on that thirty feet when the rod is designed to cast 70 feet? Or is it, in fact? It seems to be that with different shooting heads, you would want rod in higher weight categories to handle a range of actual weights. How are rods actually rated for line weight in these sizes?<!-- google_ad_section_end --> Great points. The ATFF standards were created long before the rapid advances in rod building and line development ocurred. The Sage bass rod for example utilizes a weight rating instead of falling into the class of a 7 weight for example and the corresponding line to be used is a specialty line that simply is measured in grams.

You are absolutely right in terms of wanting a certain rod to match the shooting head line weight you want to use. Rods are rated for line weight from a building perspective by the rod designer using a load board. All rods, trout and other, are built this way. At some point, the loop will collapse and a rod may even break durning casting. Don't forget, those who use shooting heads and far heavier rods propel these heavy lines in excess of 100 miles an hour. On the heavier rods, this is very apparent. So, the designer wants the rod to flex optimally with most 8 weight lines (for example). What lines people choose to put on what rods is up to them. That's exactly why we use standard choices based on sales. This indicates to us what the overwhelming majority of buyers will do with the tools we sell them. I personally like a 9 weight rod to NOT have to be overlined or tweaked in order to get satisfactory performance from it. Obviously, chosing the correct line is a matter of preference AND a matter of what the rod can handle.

 

[Future Fanatic]

For this reason, I ask a candiate to follow me as we walk some place. I walk quickly. If they don't keep up, I don't hire them.

Just hoping you've less than 15 employees...

Americans with Disabilities Act Questions and Answers

 

[Trout Nazi]

Regarding the four venemous insults in your most recent post: No comment.

I've concluded my test of your character. I apologize for testing you, but it was kind of my final determination as to what kind of poster you actually are. Here's how you scored: You responded to a fight fire with fire, insult laden, mean spirited reply with more of the same. Your reply to intentional, mean spirited provocation (deliberate retaliation) shows you are 67 percent wholly comitted to being an internet bully. However, 32 percent of you is full of excellent points.

I count 5 venomous insults, the last one was really subtle. On a venom scale of 1-10, with 10 being the Irukandji jellyfish, its a 2, the yellowjacket wasp. I'm also saddened that I failed your test, somehow, I'll find the strength to go on. Thank you also for giving me options, I opt to stay. On a funniness and humor rating, you're 10% funny, but kind of like a movie thats so bad its good.

Obviously, we could play this game all day, but it doesn't serve a purpose, in that I'm here in the spirit of finding out which products are the best.

Rejoice in the fact that I'm done after this, as this is getting old, even if you provoke me (I sense another test for me perhaps?)

I fish over 200 days a year and I take a few trips to far away places as well.

How do you find time to work? Thats my jealousy actually, I have guide friends who don't put those kinds of days in. On the flip side, with this kind of time on the water, you should be able to make a rod reco to any customer based on your experience alone, no? You should also be able to differentiate subtleties between rods, without elaborite tests.

So, I've lost interest in playing the internet troll game of insulting back and forth all day. Let me ask you, politely this time, to please focus your energy to make some useful posts of your own and consider, if you must be in my posts, to be civil. If you find posts that I create to be too long or if you don't actually read them and notice the points made, why comment at all? Unless...you're here to do the types of things Cowherd illuded to 67 percent of the time.

Your the noob here pal, not me. You haven't contributed in any substantive way to one thread other than this one, which points to some kind of agenda. Here's a thought, why don't you man up and become a paying sponsor to this site, since your so big in this industry, it would be a good fit. Then at least your agenda would be more transparent. You're playing a not so clever game here. Establish some type of credibility, and then what, post test results and wait for all of the IMs from people here to ask where your store is, so that they can come in and buy from the master himself?

Regarding the two actual points made in your post: I'm assuming you don't think the VT2 or the TLS should be in the test? We had them in on the grounds that, based on sales from the past 5 years, many who are very happy with these two rods would enjoy seeing them directly compared to some of the newer rods that are out. Do you think this is a horrible, roten idea that should prove to the world that I'm a raving mad-man who should take credibility courses at a local community college right away?

Who cares about rods that you won't be able to easily acquire in a couple of months? Unless the tactic here is to show how much better the new ones are so that customers come in and upgrade. Nothing wrong with this actually, just don't pretend that people "would enjoy to see" how their old rods compare to newer ones when they can actually go cast and see for themselves at the next Fly Fishing show.

And I have yet to see one post from anyone that actually needs this type of testing criteria or scoring system to go and buy a rod.

 

[Trouser Trout]

I think catskillkid should hire GB, i believe the U.S. Government gives financial incentives and tax breaks for such hirings. The classic win/win.

 

[CatskillKid]

Just hoping you've less than 15 employees...

Americans with Disabilities Act Questions and Answers

You might try reading the entire post for your answer, you'll find it's a few more than 15. What you won't find is that several have disabilities, from war wounds to being deaf to having ADD to other, more substantial issues. Each one of them tries very hard to accomplish as much as they can in a given shift. I'm not so ruthless or unkind that if I sense a physical handicap or a true, age related reason why someone can't hustle, I decide I don't want them. However, having the correct position for someone who has a disability is also a must due to sheer volume and pace. With that said, working in a fly shop or large retailer involves more than standing around talking to customers and letting the magic elves who clean up all the things a lazy, poorly motivated employee didn't bother to take care of. A team is only as good as it's weakest link and a few bad eggs can make a lot more work for the ones that actually care. In no way do we tolerate this and I find that otherwise capable people who can't keep up are extremely bad hires for retail.

---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------

I think catskillkid should hire GB, i believe the U.S. Government gives financial incentives and tax breaks for such hirings. The classic win/win.

Beware of a person who tells you that something is a win-win. They almost always have a hidden agenda and are trying to hose you. Is your computer under a bridge too?

---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 PM ----------

Regarding the four venemous insults in your most recent post: No comment.

I've concluded my test of your character. I apologize for testing you, but it was kind of my final determination as to what kind of poster you actually are. Here's how you scored: You responded to a fight fire with fire, insult laden, mean spirited reply with more of the same. Your reply to intentional, mean spirited provocation (deliberate retaliation) shows you are 67 percent wholly comitted to being an internet bully. However, 32 percent of you is full of excellent points.

I count 5 venomous insults, the last one was really subtle. On a venom scale of 1-10, with 10 being the Irukandji jellyfish, its a 2, the yellowjacket wasp. I'm also saddened that I failed your test, somehow, I'll find the strength to go on. Thank you also for giving me options, I opt to stay. On a funniness and humor rating, you're 10% funny, but kind of like a movie thats so bad its good.

Obviously, we could play this game all day, but it doesn't serve a purpose, in that I'm here in the spirit of finding out which products are the best.

Rejoice in the fact that I'm done after this, as this is getting old, even if you provoke me (I sense another test for me perhaps?)

I fish over 200 days a year and I take a few trips to far away places as well.

How do you find time to work? Thats my jealousy actually, I have guide friends who don't put those kinds of days in. On the flip side, with this kind of time on the water, you should be able to make a rod reco to any customer based on your experience alone, no? You should also be able to differentiate subtleties between rods, without elaborite tests.

So, I've lost interest in playing the internet troll game of insulting back and forth all day. Let me ask you, politely this time, to please focus your energy to make some useful posts of your own and consider, if you must be in my posts, to be civil. If you find posts that I create to be too long or if you don't actually read them and notice the points made, why comment at all? Unless...you're here to do the types of things Cowherd illuded to 67 percent of the time.

Your the noob here pal, not me. You haven't contributed in any substantive way to one thread other than this one, which points to some kind of agenda. Here's a thought, why don't you man up and become a paying sponsor to this site, since your so big in this industry, it would be a good fit. Then at least your agenda would be more transparent. You're playing a not so clever game here. Establish some type of credibility, and then what, post test results and wait for all of the IMs from people here to ask where your store is, so that they can come in and buy from the master himself?

Regarding the two actual points made in your post: I'm assuming you don't think the VT2 or the TLS should be in the test? We had them in on the grounds that, based on sales from the past 5 years, many who are very happy with these two rods would enjoy seeing them directly compared to some of the newer rods that are out. Do you think this is a horrible, roten idea that should prove to the world that I'm a raving mad-man who should take credibility courses at a local community college right away?

Who cares about rods that you won't be able to easily acquire in a couple of months? Unless the tactic here is to show how much better the new ones are so that customers come in and upgrade. Nothing wrong with this actually, just don't pretend that people "would enjoy to see" how their old rods compare to newer ones when they can actually go cast and see for themselves at the next Fly Fishing show.

And I have yet to see one post from anyone that actually needs this type of testing criteria or scoring system to go and buy a rod.

you're 10% funny, but kind of like a movie thats so bad its good....I take it you like Ed Wood films?

Rejoice in the fact that I'm done after this, as this is getting old, even if you provoke me (I sense another test for me perhaps?)...Fair enough, I also think it's very fair to say that you actually started the insulting though, not me.

How do you find time to work? Thats my jealousy actually, I have guide friends who don't put those kinds of days in. On the flip side, with this kind of time on the water, you should be able to make a rod reco to any customer based on your experience alone, no? You should also be able to differentiate subtleties between rods, without elaborite tests...I have a beach house and a home on a 5 star-river, so it's actually quite easy to fish every day. Plus, as a successful business man and the owner of mulitple businesses, I am afforded the luxury of at least doing some things I like, traveling and also writing my own schedule. As for giving my own testimonials to sell a rod, I don't find that to be in any way an objective evaluation of 10 different rods, unless of course you think I'm an Octopus? Besides, why would I want to force my own personal opinion on a customer? Their opinion is far more important. The job of a salesman is to give them objective advice and then guide them to whatever they want to buy.

Your the noob here pal, not me. You haven't contributed in any substantive way to one thread other than this one, which points to some kind of agenda. Here's a thought, why don't you man up and become a paying sponsor to this site, since your so big in this industry, it would be a good fit. Then at least your agenda would be more transparent. You're playing a not so clever game here. Establish some type of credibility, and then what, post test results and wait for all of the IMs from people here to ask where your store is, so that they can come in and buy from the master himself? I wasn't even aware that members were asked to pay to be on this site. I have been an occasional reader of various sites like this over the years, but never joined. If paying is expected, meaing if I'm asked to pay, I would have to break my word and become a self promoter and I can't justify doing that. Besides, only a couple thousand people read even the best posts. Most "views" are no doubt repeat viewers as well.

Trust me, one thing you will not ever see me do is reveal where my business locations are. I am in no way here to convice people to buy from me. This may be hard for you to believe, but I will swear it.

If you ever read even a word of me doing this in any post, you can ask me to delete my profile and vanish forever. I will give you my word that, this being the case, I will. Otherwise, I am here to stay and have equal right to voice my opinion.

Furthermore, it is not for you or anyone else to say this right is not mine. There is no difference between a veteran angler and a complete beginner, they each have the responsibility of keeping the stream a clean, protected, safe and pleasureable place to fish. This post and this site are no different. I'm not looking to establish credibility either. I am only trying to share my insight and learn the insights of others. As a business man, I am always curious to know why people buy things. Shouldn't I be? After all, the goal is have the right things to sell. But beyond selling things, and who cares if I succeed or don't succeed because, as I said I owe it to my own personal integrity to not be a self promoter due to the spirit of this site, the posters on it and the promise I've made you. In fairness to many of you, I noticed you had a lot of opinions but in general, many posters seem to lack facts or solid reasons to back up thier claims. In fact, I noticed that many posters actually do have something to gain by making their claims and points. As I said, I don't. Yes, I could. But I never will.

Who cares about rods that you won't be able to easily acquire in a couple of months? Unless the tactic here is to show how much better the new ones are so that customers come in and upgrade. Nothing wrong with this actually, just don't pretend that people "would enjoy to see" how their old rods compare to newer ones when they can actually go cast and see for themselves at the next Fly Fishing show...Again, you overstep your bounds. Since when do you have the right to tell me what to do? Why don't you worry about what you say and do and let me worry about the ramifications of my own actions. I personally enjoy seeing how a previous model stacks up against a current one and I believe many other veteran anglers do as well. My Sage SLT 9' 4 weight is a prime example. When the ZXL 9' 4wt. came out, I found it to be a better rod. So, I bought it. Did I really need it? No. Did it replace my SLT? No. But I found I couldn't pass one up. And who actually goes to shows? Maybe 10 percent of the customers in fly fishing. Shows are for guides to get customers and for a few new products to debut. They actually aren't profitable for a business to even attend. The only value they have are for folks looking to travel or see tyers or buy materials perhaps, or maybe attend a seminar.

And I have yet to see one post from anyone that actually needs this type of testing criteria or scoring system to go and buy a rod... Exactly the reason I made the post. Keep in mind, my business is NOT the first to conduct such tests. Others have done so long before we did. I stand firm on what I've said as well. If a room full of people are talking about which is best, but none of them have actually even conducted an objective test of the product they are talking about as compared to other products, I see them very differently than I view a group of people who actually have conducted an evaluation that considers the competition. If you're offended by this, get over it.

 

[Future Fanatic]

You might try reading the entire post for your answer, you'll find it's a few more than 15.

I'll be candid and say, when I read some of these posts, I kinda glaze over after the initial one or two paragraphs. To me, these "discussions" are sorta like reading, I don't know, articles in Motor Trend. Sure people who pore over the numbers provided in the articles and the comparisons of torque and acceleration and braking distance, I'm sure get a lot out of it... But all things being equal, I'm not sure they enjoy driving a car more than I do... That said, even though I glaze over... I still enjoy fishing.

Each one of them tries very hard to accomplish as much as they can in a given shift. I'm not so ruthless or unkind that if I sense a physical handicap or a true, age related reason why someone can't hustle, I decide I don't want them. However, having the correct position for someone who has a disability is also a must due to sheer volume and pace.

That's not what you said in the post I referenced. But of course, my post was in jest. But if a guy can't keep up with you on your quick walk because of a disability, I'm pretty sure it would be illegal to NOT hire him because of it... One must make "reasonable accommodations"...

 

[coolkyle]

As it should be kyle! What flies will you be focusing on this winter?

I plan on churning out as many midges, caddis larvae, scuds, and small stoneflies as I can before it gets real cold. I love winter fishing, so I better do the winter tying now.

 

[Simms]

You might try reading the entire post for your answer, you'll find it's a few more than 15. What you won't find is that several have disabilities, from war wounds to being deaf to having ADD to other, more substantial issues. Each one of them tries very hard to accomplish as much as they can in a given shift. I'm not so ruthless or unkind that if I sense a physical handicap or a true, age related reason why someone can't hustle, I decide I don't want them. However, having the correct position for someone who has a disability is also a must due to sheer volume and pace. With that said, working in a fly shop or large retailer involves more than standing around talking to customers and letting the magic elves who clean up all the things a lazy, poorly motivated employee didn't bother to take care of. A team is only as good as it's weakest link and a few bad eggs can make a lot more work for the ones that actually care. In no way do we tolerate this and I find that otherwise capable people who can't keep up are extremely bad hires for retail.

---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------



Beware of a person who tells you that something is a win-win. They almost always have a hidden agenda and are trying to hose you. Is your computer under a bridge too?

---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 PM ----------



you're 10% funny, but kind of like a movie thats so bad its good....I take it you like Ed Wood films?

Rejoice in the fact that I'm done after this, as this is getting old, even if you provoke me (I sense another test for me perhaps?)...Fair enough, I also think it's very fair to say that you actually started the insulting though, not me.

How do you find time to work? Thats my jealousy actually, I have guide friends who don't put those kinds of days in. On the flip side, with this kind of time on the water, you should be able to make a rod reco to any customer based on your experience alone, no? You should also be able to differentiate subtleties between rods, without elaborite tests...I have a beach house and a home on a 5 star-river, so it's actually quite easy to fish every day. Plus, as a successful business man and the owner of mulitple businesses, I am afforded the luxury of at least doing some things I like, traveling and also writing my own schedule. As for giving my own testimonials to sell a rod, I don't find that to be in any way an objective evaluation of 10 different rods, unless of course you think I'm an Octopus? Besides, why would I want to force my own personal opinion on a customer? Their opinion is far more important. The job of a salesman is to give them objective advice and then guide them to whatever they want to buy.

Your the noob here pal, not me. You haven't contributed in any substantive way to one thread other than this one, which points to some kind of agenda. Here's a thought, why don't you man up and become a paying sponsor to this site, since your so big in this industry, it would be a good fit. Then at least your agenda would be more transparent. You're playing a not so clever game here. Establish some type of credibility, and then what, post test results and wait for all of the IMs from people here to ask where your store is, so that they can come in and buy from the master himself? I wasn't even aware that members were asked to pay to be on this site. I have been an occasional reader of various sites like this over the years, but never joined. If paying is expected, meaing if I'm asked to pay, I would have to break my word and become a self promoter and I can't justify doing that. Besides, only a couple thousand people read even the best posts. Most "views" are no doubt repeat viewers as well.

Trust me, one thing you will not ever see me do is reveal where my business locations are. I am in no way here to convice people to buy from me. This may be hard for you to believe, but I will swear it.

If you ever read even a word of me doing this in any post, you can ask me to delete my profile and vanish forever. I will give you my word that, this being the case, I will. Otherwise, I am here to stay and have equal right to voice my opinion.

Furthermore, it is not for you or anyone else to say this right is not mine. There is no difference between a veteran angler and a complete beginner, they each have the responsibility of keeping the stream a clean, protected, safe and pleasureable place to fish. This post and this site are no different. I'm not looking to establish credibility either. I am only trying to share my insight and learn the insights of others. As a business man, I am always curious to know why people buy things. Shouldn't I be? After all, the goal is have the right things to sell. But beyond selling things, and who cares if I succeed or don't succeed because, as I said I owe it to my own personal integrity to not be a self promoter due to the spirit of this site, the posters on it and the promise I've made you. In fairness to many of you, I noticed you had a lot of opinions but in general, many posters seem to lack facts or solid reasons to back up thier claims. In fact, I noticed that many posters actually do have something to gain by making their claims and points. As I said, I don't. Yes, I could. But I never will.

Who cares about rods that you won't be able to easily acquire in a couple of months? Unless the tactic here is to show how much better the new ones are so that customers come in and upgrade. Nothing wrong with this actually, just don't pretend that people "would enjoy to see" how their old rods compare to newer ones when they can actually go cast and see for themselves at the next Fly Fishing show...Again, you overstep your bounds. Since when do you have the right to tell me what to do? Why don't you worry about what you say and do and let me worry about the ramifications of my own actions. I personally enjoy seeing how a previous model stacks up against a current one and I believe many other veteran anglers do as well. My Sage SLT 9' 4 weight is a prime example. When the ZXL 9' 4wt. came out, I found it to be a better rod. So, I bought it. Did I really need it? No. Did it replace my SLT? No. But I found I couldn't pass one up. And who actually goes to shows? Maybe 10 percent of the customers in fly fishing. Shows are for guides to get customers and for a few new products to debut. They actually aren't profitable for a business to even attend. The only value they have are for folks looking to travel or see tyers or buy materials perhaps, or maybe attend a seminar.

And I have yet to see one post from anyone that actually needs this type of testing criteria or scoring system to go and buy a rod... Exactly the reason I made the post. Keep in mind, my business is NOT the first to conduct such tests. Others have done so long before we did. I stand firm on what I've said as well. If a room full of people are talking about which is best, but none of them have actually even conducted an objective test of the product they are talking about as compared to other products, I see them very differently than I view a group of people who actually have conducted an evaluation that considers the competition. If you're offended by this, get over it.

Shouldn't you be out testing rods right now?

 

[CatskillKid]

I'll be candid and say, when I read some of these posts, I kinda glaze over after the initial one or two paragraphs. To me, these "discussions" are sorta like reading, I don't know, articles in Motor Trend. Sure people who pore over the numbers provided in the articles and the comparisons of torque and acceleration and braking distance, I'm sure get a lot out of it... But all things being equal, I'm not sure they enjoy driving a car more than I do... That said, even though I glaze over... I still enjoy fishing.



That's not what you said in the post I referenced. But of course, my post was in jest. But if a guy can't keep up with you on your quick walk because of a disability, I'm pretty sure it would be illegal to NOT hire him because of it... One must make "reasonable accommodations"...

Just the same, it is therefore the person applying for the job who has the obligation then to present their disability before a decision is rendered, no? I don't recall me typing anying about discriminating against anyone who had a legit disability. THAT would be illegal, right? You perhaps jumped the gun with your jovial conclusion. People around here are VERY defensive, as I would expect as Fly Fishermen in general are generally higher funcioning due to the degree of perceived difficulty.

Also, glazing over somehthing, then making a comment without the facts is kind of like choosing a rod with little to no comparison basis. no?

---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 PM ----------

Shouldn't you be out testing rods right now?

Perhaps if you followed the thread in detail you would surmise the reason I am sitting in a hotel room in Ohio right now. You're making it very difficult to reason with you because of your refusal to pay attention to that which does not immediately pertain to yourself.

---------- Post added at 09:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------

I plan on churning out as many midges, caddis larvae, scuds, and small stoneflies as I can before it gets real cold. I love winter fishing, so I better do the winter tying now.

It's a pain in the rump to keep your fly box full if you fish a lot. However, I think it's awesome that you crank 'em out. Winter fishing is better than skiing though bro and that's coming from a telemarking mountaineer. There's nothing like it! Life is good man. So what patterns are you bangin out and where will you be fishing?

 

[Trouser Trout]

Although i find your posts pretty much annoying and useless, it is nice to see you stand up for yourself.

 

[golden beetle]

Although i find your posts pretty much annoying and useless, it is nice to see you stand up for yourself.

Catskillkid, please take note that I alone remained respectful to you, always firmly believing that, were I to need a high paying job in the ff industry, that you would provide it for me.

 

[CatskillKid]

Although i find your posts pretty much annoying and useless, it is nice to see you stand up for yourself.

Well Pal, I appreciate the comment. The truth is though that none of us matter and we won't take any of this material crap with us when we die. We are mere blips of nothingness in the grand scheme of the universe. But, we're here and trying to do our best is all that we can do (depending on our philosophical allignment of course). John Barth's Night Sea Voyage kind of sums this point up. Believe it or not, standing up for myself is not as important (to me) as remembering those who fished before me. For this reason, I always make anyone who fishes with me have a sip of Scotch and share in this notion. It won't be long until we're all gone. So let's be a part of the single, greatest tradition on earth!

Thanks for kind word my friend. Even if you think my posts are mostly useless. That's entirely your right.

---------- Post added at 10:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

Catskillkid, please take note that I alone remained respectful to you, always firmly believing that, were I to need a high paying job in the ff industry, that you would provide it for me.

I've noticed this Golden Beetle, but even those who stand against me are my brothers. They don't know it yet, but some day they will. I harbor no dislike of them, nor do they really of me. If we did, none of us would be here speaking with each other. As for your respect of me, I thank you for it but I would ask you to respect me, if you would agree, on the merits of my points, not because you want me to deliver you a high paying job. With this said, please know that we all have dreams and if this IS your dream, to be high paid in the Fishing Industry, understand that you are making a deal with the Devil. Your passion will become your job and you will stare into the depths of hell wondering why your past time has become your work. You will be challenged not to sell out. Profits will then dictate your connections to a once beloved past time.

You did say you were a Trout Bum after all. I implore you not to blur the line between that which you love and financial well being. One of my top two mentors in my whole life was the late Walt Dette of Roscoe, NY. He often said that there was no money in running a fly fishing business. He was truly right. It is more a way of life, you would have to eek out a living. See and understand my point and be true to that which you love.

True, I defied his belief. But out of passion and an understanding of Retail and what it takes to succeed in such a venture. And I don't just sell Fly Fishing product, just an FYI. As high margin as it is, the volume isn't there. Success has come for me only due to business insight.

A real, genuine trout bum should revel in his ability to wander and experience. Make your money elsewhere, unless this path is your ultimate dream. If it is that, then follow this dream and let no one deter you. But please, follow this path at your own risk and do so on your own terms.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Just the same, it is therefore the person applying for the job who has the obligation then to present their disability before a decision is rendered, no? I don't recall me typing anying about discriminating against anyone who had a legit disability. THAT would be illegal, right? You perhaps jumped the gun with your jovial conclusion. People around here are VERY defensive, as I would expect as Fly Fishermen in general are generally higher funcioning due to the degree of perceived difficulty.

Do you tell your prospective employees that keeping up with you on your "walk" is part of the hiring process? You know, something like " Hey, If you want the job, you have to keep up with me..." because candidates are NOT obligated to disclose a disability... If he did not know he was being evaluated, he would have no idea he should be asking for a "reasonable accommodation".

Jovial conclusion? This keeps getting funnier and funnier...

 

[golden beetle]

Catskillkid, I sincerely like you and appreciate your intelligence and insight.

I would like a high paying job, but even without it, the first sentence stands on its own as the truth.

 

[CatskillKid]

Do you tell your prospective employees that keeping up with you on your "walk" is part of the hiring process? You know, something like " Hey, If you want the job, you have to keep up with me..." because candidates are NOT obligated to disclose a disability... If he did not know he was being evaluated, he would have no idea he should be asking for a "reasonable accommodation".

Jovial conclusion? This keeps getting funnier and funnier...

I don't actually say anything. Once we sit down in the interview, I mention that I noticed they had a hard time following me (assuming they didn't keep up) and this makes me wonder if they would be able to handle the fast pace of the sales floor. Depending on the candidates answer, I then make a decision. If they chose not to divulge the reason they had a difficulty, then call me remiss for not hiring them. Alternately, I would have most likely had or will have a position they would potentially be suited for. I'm not sure I quite understand what is funny about this? Also, I couldn't help notice that you changed your avatar already. You wouldn't be a heckler now would you?