Don't know if any of you while fishing our famed trout streams ever wonder about the history or folklore of the area. I'm a bit of a dreamer and amateur historian of certain things and find Babe Ruth fishing the Flatbrook while Bigfoot[Red Eye} supposedly roamed the same area,Washinton's army marching up and down the Muskie from Warren to Morris counties, and not to mention the many Native American and pioneer establishments perched along all of these streams to be fascinating. Do any of you who now live these lands have any furter tales that an old dreamer like myself could take with me as I pursue these waters with my trusty fly rod come spring? If this bores any modern day thinker, spare me till the technical threads begin again this spring.:nose-picking:
Give us a try!
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History and Folklore
- Thread starter sonny
- Start date
kindanewbie77
the sad old dog with no friends
Babe Ruth was a fixture in the Sussex county area for quite a while....pretty sure he was an active member of the Centerville hunting club,as well as fish the BFB like you mentioned, and used to frequent McQueon's on Culver's lake....there are quite a few pictures of him hanging on the walls of homes and bars all over the area up here
Rusty Spinner
Active member
He was well known to eat his roast duck and drink his bourbon at McQueons (McKewoens? however it used to be spelled).
JeffK is a great local historian and hopefully he'll weigh in on this thread. He lent me a great book on the history of land use in the Musconetcong watershed the name and author of which has slipped my mind at the moment. I know that Indians traveled many of our northwest trout rivers as corridors between hunting and gathering sites and for early trade as did early European settlers.
Moving closer in history, names like Ernie Schweibert, Al Cauci and Bob Nastasi and many other well known trout fishing names were locals on NJ trout streams. Also, Martha Stewart fished the Musky for trout as a girl, having grown up in Nutley.
golden beetle
Active member
Rusty, I noticed in your post you made reference to the "Indians.". While you and I and others of generations past refer to those people as Indians, the proper word, I believe, is "Savage Americans."
Kids are reading this stuff, so you really gotta raise the bar a bit.
Kids are reading this stuff, so you really gotta raise the bar a bit.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
Easy there, GB, you never know who you are insulting on the internet. My great, great grandfather on my father's side married a Seminole so that makes me at least part "Savage American".
I remembered the book's author on the Musky. A rather academic read, but full of great info for history geeks. It is: [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Peter O. Wacker, professor emeritus of geography at Rutgers University, is the author of The Musconetcong Valley of New Jersey: A Historical Geography; Land and People: A Cultural Geography of Preindustrial New Jersey Origins and Settlement Patterns.
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golden beetle
Active member
Rusty, it must be said that you and I are polar opposites. Your calm demeanor in the face of a blitzkrieg of ignorance - which has me as its source - just makes you look good and me equally bad.
Maybe if you had a little fire water in your belly, you might make this a bit more entertaining.
What say you, Kee-mo-sab-ee?
Maybe if you had a little fire water in your belly, you might make this a bit more entertaining.
What say you, Kee-mo-sab-ee?
Rusty Spinner
Active member
HooliganTroutBum
Lasciate ogni speranza voi che entrate
A fart in a whirlwind, is more like it.
but still full of shit all the same.
Here's a bit of folklore:
AKSkim......Oh wait. Tall Tales don't count. Never mind.
Carry on.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
That made me think some more. Andersonville is located just south of the Point Mountain traffic light on rt. 57 where the old Anderson Hotel is still located (closed and for sale). This was an early emancipated slave town, well before slaves were emancipated following the Civil War. You can still see some of the original old homes if you turn off 57 onto Anderson-Asbury Road. Agust knows much more than I about this local tidbit of history.
Of course as far as local folklore, there were some famous murders in the Musky valley back in the 1700s and 1800s including a murdering minister (his wife). JeffK leads a "Murder Mystery Tour" of the Musky most years and has all of the specifics.
On the upper SBR, if you read "Weird NJ" you will discover the ghost that walks along the RR tracks along Bartley Rd. about a mile from my house. Lots of history and folklore alive and well around our trout streams...
Supposedly Babe Ruth also frequented the Pequest and the Island Park bar used to have a picture of him fishing there (may still have it - I haven't been there in a while). Also heard a rumor that he spent more time chasing bar girls than trout, but that is another matter. In the 1920's Rte 5 (now Rte 46) was opened across NJ and the Pequest Valley was a destination fishing spot (the Rte 46 bridge over the Musky still has the Rte 5 markers and 1920's dates). The Water Gap was a five hour drive from NYC then, which is about as far as most vacationers want to travel. Therefore, many famous fishermen from NYC and Philadelphia frequented NJ trout streams. That ended when the interstate system and then cheap air travel opened up the whole country, but in the 1920's Montana wasn't an option unless one had a whole lot of time and money and NJ streams were famous. Many people would take the grand tour through the "big five" (Flat Brook, Paulinskill, Pequest, Muskie and South Branch). Used to be "groves" all over the place where a farmer would let people park in a field for a small fee and fish, swim, picnic or camp. Trout stocking was very political until not that long ago with trout allocated to counties, and then the county politicians spreading them around. No stocking formulas with trout carrying capacity and public access like there are now. It was always rumored some of the grove owners would slip a few bucks into a county freeholders or stocking truck drivers pocket to get some extra fish to attract more customers. Pay offs in New Jersey! Some would sell beer or grill hamburgers and hot dogs and some even had a few little rides for the kids. A couple of notable ones were Butler's Park on the Musky (which had a few kiddie rides) and Pequest Grove just outside of Belvidere (can still see the sign in the woods if you know where to look). At one time Rte 46 had a bunch of the cottage style motels from the 20's and 30's, but they have all been torn down now except the one right where 46 crosses the Musky. Can still see a few gas stations, stores, and restaurants along Rte 46 from the 20's and 30's era when vacationers looked at the Pequest and Musky as prime fishing spots.
Up on the Flat Brook big money Wall Street guys were buying up the prime stretches in the 20's and forming private clubs, kind of like some of the pushes in the go-go years of the 80's through the early 2000's when private water had an upswing. Donny Beaver ring a bell? Ken Lockwood, the outdoors editor for the Newark paper, led a publicity campaign for the novel idea of public hunting and fishing grounds to save a few spots for the average guy. That led to the start of our current WMA system, with the first purchase being the Flatbrook Stretch where many of our favorite spots now are (a historical marker is up there).
I could go on.
Up on the Flat Brook big money Wall Street guys were buying up the prime stretches in the 20's and forming private clubs, kind of like some of the pushes in the go-go years of the 80's through the early 2000's when private water had an upswing. Donny Beaver ring a bell? Ken Lockwood, the outdoors editor for the Newark paper, led a publicity campaign for the novel idea of public hunting and fishing grounds to save a few spots for the average guy. That led to the start of our current WMA system, with the first purchase being the Flatbrook Stretch where many of our favorite spots now are (a historical marker is up there).
I could go on.
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Denlon
Denny- Nothing is ever easy
JeffK-
I have always been interested in NJ history, mostly centered around the streams down in the Pine Barrens. I have a whole collection of books on the subject, and a few on the North Jersey area. What is the name/author of the book you loaned to Brian he refers to above?
Denny
Rusty Spinner
Active member
Denny,
Look at my second or third post, I mention the book there. It was by Peter Whacker, a professor emeritus from Rutgers.
NJpatbee
Can be found on NJ/NY/PA waters!
To add to the Native American/Indian debate - There is no entity more PC than the Federal Government, with whom my company has been subcontracting for over the last 7-8 years. Monorities, disabled Vets, and other groups can receive special consideration or "set asides" for their particular group. The term "Native American" covers a number of categories including the Native Alaskans (e.g. Innuits) and American Indians (Mohawks, Apache, etc.). So it is Ok to say "American Indian" and not be concerned about defaming anyone. Of course, Indian-American to most of us means someone of Indian (Asian) ancestry, so the government uses American Indian to distinguish between the two. Confusing? Don't worry, the Feds have it all under control.
One last thought, since the name "Indian" stuck, how long did it really take my fellow Italian Columbus and subsequent European explorers to realize they weren't in India???
One last thought, since the name "Indian" stuck, how long did it really take my fellow Italian Columbus and subsequent European explorers to realize they weren't in India???
I've always been of the mind that the tribal names should be used. Call people what they call themselves. Lene Lenape, Blackfoot, Apache, Unami, Minisink, Unalachtigo, etc.
Native American offends me a bit. I was born in Cleveland. Am I not native? I guess if I were a trout I'd be a wild descendant of non-native transplants but come on. How many generations does it take? Do you have to go back to the Ice age like heritage strain brookeis.
Native American offends me a bit. I was born in Cleveland. Am I not native? I guess if I were a trout I'd be a wild descendant of non-native transplants but come on. How many generations does it take? Do you have to go back to the Ice age like heritage strain brookeis.
golden beetle
Active member
I find the term native american to be offensive too.
Who is the greatest of the American Indians? Sitting Bull? Geronimo? Tonto?
Who is the greatest of the American Indians? Sitting Bull? Geronimo? Tonto?
I always had a little bone to pick with the sign for Washington's army passed here on the retreat from New York on Asbury Rd. Here is my view.
In 1776 there were three armies: George Washington's at NYC, Charles Lee's near Poughkeepsie to head to NYC or New England if needed, and Gates' army in Northern NY to cover any attacks from Canada. The British clobbered Washington in NYC and he was forced to retreat to PA in tatters leaving most of his artillery. Cornwallis was hot on his trail with a larger army of better equipped, professional soliders. John Paine wrote "these are the times that try men's souls" during this retreat. Washington took the normal route from NYC to PA through New Brunswick, Princeton, and Trenton - no Muskie involved. Roughly the Route 1 way.
Gates and Lee weren't too quick off the mark to help Washington. Both figured they should have been the top general and hoped Washington would self destruct. Lee finally moved south stopping first at Morristown, which was a big rebel stronghold. He was planning to go south along where Rte 287 is, then across where 22 goes and head over to Milford to cross the Delaware. Lee was captured by the British in Basking Ridge when he decided to go outside American lines for a more comfortable bed/ willing woman. Who knows. Sullivan took over and the army moved roughly along 22, but then dodged North and camped at Union Forge (which was right where Spruce Run goes into the reservior). They then went over the gap that Rte 31 passes though, crossed the Muskie and headed to Phillipsburg via Bloomsbury. So then this army did follow the Musky on the Asbury Rd for a while, but not where the sign is. I guess since Washington was the top general they were Washington's army, but it really wasn't the main group directly commanded by Washington. When in Phillipsburg part of Sullivan's army camped at the top of the hill where Bates St crosses Rte 22. People along Bates St would occassionally dig up a revolutionary war artifact.
Gates army headed south along the Hudson, cut across the valley where 209 is to Port Jervis and then down to Newton - probably crossing the Flat Brook where the Rte 206 bridge is now. The cavalry under Pulaski took the Old Mine Road and spent a night at Van Campen's Inn. They all cut over to
Bethlehem, probably by Rte 519 and then went down to meet Washington.
Of course Washington turned things around, but that is another story.
In 1776 there were three armies: George Washington's at NYC, Charles Lee's near Poughkeepsie to head to NYC or New England if needed, and Gates' army in Northern NY to cover any attacks from Canada. The British clobbered Washington in NYC and he was forced to retreat to PA in tatters leaving most of his artillery. Cornwallis was hot on his trail with a larger army of better equipped, professional soliders. John Paine wrote "these are the times that try men's souls" during this retreat. Washington took the normal route from NYC to PA through New Brunswick, Princeton, and Trenton - no Muskie involved. Roughly the Route 1 way.
Gates and Lee weren't too quick off the mark to help Washington. Both figured they should have been the top general and hoped Washington would self destruct. Lee finally moved south stopping first at Morristown, which was a big rebel stronghold. He was planning to go south along where Rte 287 is, then across where 22 goes and head over to Milford to cross the Delaware. Lee was captured by the British in Basking Ridge when he decided to go outside American lines for a more comfortable bed/ willing woman. Who knows. Sullivan took over and the army moved roughly along 22, but then dodged North and camped at Union Forge (which was right where Spruce Run goes into the reservior). They then went over the gap that Rte 31 passes though, crossed the Muskie and headed to Phillipsburg via Bloomsbury. So then this army did follow the Musky on the Asbury Rd for a while, but not where the sign is. I guess since Washington was the top general they were Washington's army, but it really wasn't the main group directly commanded by Washington. When in Phillipsburg part of Sullivan's army camped at the top of the hill where Bates St crosses Rte 22. People along Bates St would occassionally dig up a revolutionary war artifact.
Gates army headed south along the Hudson, cut across the valley where 209 is to Port Jervis and then down to Newton - probably crossing the Flat Brook where the Rte 206 bridge is now. The cavalry under Pulaski took the Old Mine Road and spent a night at Van Campen's Inn. They all cut over to
Bethlehem, probably by Rte 519 and then went down to meet Washington.
Of course Washington turned things around, but that is another story.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
That's just blasphemy :rofl:
Rusty Spinner
Active member
I get your point, after all, Native Americans did not evolve on our continent, they crossed from the land bridge from what science can gather. But in the meantime, just like our brookies remain our only native salmonids here in the northeast (not including Atlantic Salmon), you and I remain wild descendants of non-native transplants. Of course with some Native American blood in me, I'm more like the tiger trout while you are the brown or rainbow.
HooliganTroutBum
Lasciate ogni speranza voi che entrate
More likely the current Route 27, since the Battle of Princeton had taken place off of Mercer Rd, which is a mere spit from Route 27. Washington took his troops along Mercer Road/Princeton Pike/Rte 583 which followed the course of Stony Brook crossed over where the current Quaker Road is and on to the battlefield.
After victory, Washington wanted to push on to New Brunswick and seize a war chest of 70,000 pounds, but was talked out of it anticipating a Cornwallis greeting. Washington and his troops retreated to the Somerset County Courthouse in Somerville and then to on Morristown via 206/202 roughly.
Thus ending the winter campaign until the Battle of Bound Brook.
Had to give some Somerset (Franklin Twp) cred to this.
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Tattooed Angler
Keep NJ beautiful... Get a tattoo.
Gentleman, Please, It's Casino-Owner American.
And FYI although it's not on a stream, there is a fascinating tale of a guy and his family who made a stand against native americans, on Swartswood Lake... Ultimately, they were massacred, Theres been a few stories about it published over the years.
And FYI although it's not on a stream, there is a fascinating tale of a guy and his family who made a stand against native americans, on Swartswood Lake... Ultimately, they were massacred, Theres been a few stories about it published over the years.
kindanewbie77
the sad old dog with no friends
Not any longer I'm afraid....at least it wasn't the last time I was there.....
Rusty Spinner
Active member
kindanewbie77
the sad old dog with no friends
Last night on your way home from our chapter mtg?
Nope, all your free beer was more than enough
Matt Grobert
6/0 Olive Danville
I'm more like the tiger trout while you are the brown or rainbow.
Tiger,
Only the brown is an imigrant........rainbows are as native as the brookie in North America.
Matt ><)))))'>
Rusty Spinner
Active member
Tiger,
Only the brown is an imigrant........rainbows are as native as the brookie in North America.
Matt ><)))))'>
Not in NJ
that's what I meant.The Babe definately did spend alot of time in the Sussex County region, and would frequent the BFB and hunt the area, He spent alot of his time in Franklin while visiting Russ Vanatta a pitcher for the Yankees who grew up in Franklin they would visit McQueens and Golf at the Wallkill Country Club. My Grandfather ran a Barber Shop in Franklin which I still run, my grandfather had a few pictures of Babe on the wall which unfortunately disappeared when he passed asome years back. Thank god for the memories.
John Postas
John Postas
Another bit of perhaps forgotten N.J. history:
Years back when Field & Stream had a fishing contest and gave out honor badges, the winner of the GOLDEN trout category came from the Big Flat Brook! Actually it was a palamino that the club in Walpack was going to float stock when the float broke apart outside of their water. It was entered as a GOLDEN and Field & Stream never questioned it.
Years back when Field & Stream had a fishing contest and gave out honor badges, the winner of the GOLDEN trout category came from the Big Flat Brook! Actually it was a palamino that the club in Walpack was going to float stock when the float broke apart outside of their water. It was entered as a GOLDEN and Field & Stream never questioned it.