Hatch charts and climate change

[Trout Nazi]

and they also say it's climate change, not warming, the science admitted a mistake there and that many factors would change, temperature rises seem to be in the poles and the ocean, the declining populations of fish and bugs and birds and bees have nothing to do with human existence and burning everything we see.......extreme weather events are the hypothesis. But since you're a scientist, I guess there is no way I can twist my facts better than you can twist yours....the rise in CO2 is alarming....highest in 3million years, but that has nothing to do with human existence or climate change, it's just arbitrary bullshit....I'm sure.

No, when they talk about climate change, its always in the context of man-made climate change, and all the science that they like to site is what supports that narrative. I agree that we're destroying habitat, polluting water, and expanding everywhere. There are 7.5 billion people here that need to eat, have roofs over their heads, heat, electricity, and a means to get from A to B, so I think things will get worse before they get better. I also believe the worst offenders are not us (hint: China & India).

As far as twisting facts, sorry dude, but the data speaks for itself, I don't need to twist shit. Look at that graph, the past temperatures do not correlate with CO2 levels, no twisting there. If you simply graphed CO2 level with temperature, you'd see it. I'm not saying we shouldn't pollute, and that we shouldn't try to find cleaner ways to do things (I blow a gasket seeing people throw cigarettes out the window), but don't try to manufacture a global crisis just to disguise a power and money grab.

 

[lightenup]

No, when they talk about climate change, its always in the context of man-made climate change, and all the science that they like to site is what supports that narrative. I agree that we're destroying habitat, polluting water, and expanding everywhere. There are 7.5 billion people here that need to eat, have roofs over their heads, heat, electricity, and a means to get from A to B, so I think things will get worse before they get better. I also believe the worst offenders are not us (hint: China & India).

As far as twisting facts, sorry dude, but the data speaks for itself, I don't need to twist shit. Look at that graph, the past temperatures do not correlate with CO2 levels, no twisting there. If you simply graphed CO2 level with temperature, you'd see it. I'm not saying we shouldn't pollute, and that we shouldn't try to find cleaner ways to do things (I blow a gasket seeing people throw cigarettes out the window), but don't try to manufacture a global crisis just to disguise a power and money grab.

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/
Here's your temperature graph, seems to correlate pretty well to that co2 graph...seems to speak for itself. Your first paragraph supports my narrative, thanks. People are the cause of climate issues or whatever you want to label it. I know its mostly the far east creating garbage and pollution, but let's pull out of all the global initiatives to try and solve the problems, instead of staying on and doing it responsibly. There is an issue, ice sheets are melting, sea levels and temperatures are rising, animal populations are being destroyed at the base of the food chain...I don't think it's going to kill us all in 20 or 30 years, or be the yuuuuge issue some science is claiming immediately, but why procrastinate? No matter the cause, something is happening and it isn't good for the earth or us. I see no reason to fight against a "greener" Earth and a cleaner earth. The only logical reason is money and profits...you can't eat or drink profits.

 

[Trout Nazi]

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/
Here's your temperature graph, seems to correlate pretty well to that co2 graph...seems to speak for itself. Your first paragraph supports my narrative, thanks. People are the cause of climate issues or whatever you want to label it. I know its mostly the far east creating garbage and pollution, but let's pull out of all the global initiatives to try and solve the problems, instead of staying on and doing it responsibly. There is an issue, ice sheets are melting, sea levels and temperatures are rising, animal populations are being destroyed at the base of the food chain...I don't think it's going to kill us all in 20 or 30 years, or be the yuuuuge issue some science is claiming immediately, but why procrastinate? No matter the cause, something is happening and it isn't good for the earth or us. I see no reason to fight against a "greener" Earth and a cleaner earth. The only logical reason is money and profits...you can't eat or drink profits.

Your showing me 100yrs of temp changes, it means nothing in the scope of climate. Again, it was warmer during three interglacials within the last 400,000 years, when CO2 levels were supposed to be lower.

You sound like a politician “let’s pull out global initiatives”. Global initiatives such as? I’m not fighting a greener Earth, but what are these global initiatives, and how exactly do they work? And mankind will not go extinct just because it gets warmer or colder, we’ve evolved pretty well over the past 1.5M years, we’ll find some other way to kill ourselves.

 

[lightenup]

I'll be with you tomorrow, I need to work now...look at the graphs again, timing is key here...

 

[lightenup]

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/...8zWLsKoAhNB57dan8I5uqmLU1vI8sRIsaAuegEALw_wcB

 

[Trout Nazi]

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/...8zWLsKoAhNB57dan8I5uqmLU1vI8sRIsaAuegEALw_wcB

What the fuck is a climate scientist? There’s no such major in school, but I guess if your a skeptic, you’re automatically not a climate scientist, the 100% of consensus means shit.

Post all the articles you want, still doesn’t change the fact that past past temps were hotter with less CO2. I’m more or less done with this since this has become a logic vs. emotion type of debate.

 

[lightenup]

I'm not emotional or getting upset or bajiggty...I am showing the scientific communities findings...don't get mad and leave if you don't like what they have to say.I can find report after report that backs up the science. A scientist should agree with that, no? Come on, debate is healthy.

 

[Pete]

Four pages so far, but as far as I can tell, only one attempt to answer the question in the original post, and that answer was limited to the Delaware tailwater.

Has anyone considered an "on topic" post, instead of arguing about a topic that a "certain former VP" politicized beyond belief, by picking himself as a spokesman.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

I was wondering if anyone sees any correlation between traditional hatch charts and climate change.
I frequently hear people say the hatches are not what they use to be. .Could it be that times have advanced. Maybe what used to happen in the first weeks of April have move to the third week of April and the fall activity is hotter and maybe the Aug and Sept activity has shifted to
Oct/Nov Anyone have any thoughts ? I would like to hear from some guides who are on the water a good part of the weeks.

In a word, no. If the climate is warming, our hatches would advance, not retard in timing. For macroinvertebrates, it is all about "degree days". So warmer weather in theory means warmer water which means earlier hatches. But that is not what we are seeing as a general trend. Some of that has to do with the greater influence in river temps by groundwater versus outside air temps. In warm years, our hatches come off earlier and in cool years, later. But groundwater is more a factor for river temps than is air temperature. So it won't happen as quickly as one may think given a warming climate.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/
Here's your temperature graph, seems to correlate pretty well to that co2 graph...seems to speak for itself. Your first paragraph supports my narrative, thanks. People are the cause of climate issues or whatever you want to label it. I know its mostly the far east creating garbage and pollution, but let's pull out of all the global initiatives to try and solve the problems, instead of staying on and doing it responsibly. There is an issue, ice sheets are melting, sea levels and temperatures are rising, animal populations are being destroyed at the base of the food chain...I don't think it's going to kill us all in 20 or 30 years, or be the yuuuuge issue some science is claiming immediately, but why procrastinate? No matter the cause, something is happening and it isn't good for the earth or us. I see no reason to fight against a "greener" Earth and a cleaner earth. The only logical reason is money and profits...you can't eat or drink profits.

You sound exactly like KLG Neighbor. Exactly. So let's flip this around on you. You are all in believing man is solely to blame for our climate woes. Got it. What are YOU doing to curb that? You work in an old building that is not well insulated, meaning it is wasting energy. You drive a car to work instead of walking or riding a bike. You have no solar panels on the restaurant. You are using up valuable electricity typing on your computer, etc. If you so worry about the planet, why wait for politicians to fix things? Be the leader you so desperately are looking for and live what you preach.

And for what little it's worth, you CAN eat and drink the profits. And at nice restaurants like yours

 

[TheHeron]

You sound exactly like KLG Neighbor. Exactly. So let's flip this around on you. You are all in believing man is solely to blame for our climate woes. Got it. What are YOU doing to curb that? You work in an old building that is not well insulated, meaning it is wasting energy. You drive a car to work instead of walking or riding a bike. You have no solar panels on the restaurant. You are using up valuable electricity typing on your computer, etc. If you so worry about the planet, why wait for politicians to fix things? Be the leader you so desperately are looking for and live what you preach.

And for what little it's worth, you CAN eat and drink the profits. And at nice restaurants like yours

When you don't have any facts to back up your side of the debate, attack the people that don't agree with your beliefs......

 

[lightenup]

You sound exactly like KLG Neighbor. Exactly. So let's flip this around on you. You are all in believing man is solely to blame for our climate woes. Got it. What are YOU doing to curb that? You work in an old building that is not well insulated, meaning it is wasting energy. You drive a car to work instead of walking or riding a bike. You have no solar panels on the restaurant. You are using up valuable electricity typing on your computer, etc. If you so worry about the planet, why wait for politicians to fix things? Be the leader you so desperately are looking for and live what you preach.

And for what little it's worth, you CAN eat and drink the profits. And at nice restaurants like yours

I don't blame one man, I said his policies are not helpful to the environment...This bring me back to, change has to come from the top as one person getting a metal water bottle and riding a bike won't do shit...so let's be realistic. Rusty, I wish it was MY restaurant, I would have retired by now, and you and I could discuss these things on the river every afternoon..

 

[FIN-ITE 34]

Hey Rusty, don't blame LU for the building, it's Chris Kempczinski that should be footing the renovations.

 

[lightenup]

Hey Rusty, don't blame LU for the building, it's Chris Kempczinski that should be footing the renovations.

Most intelligent post on this thread..

 

[Rusty Spinner]

I don't blame one man, I said his policies are not helpful to the environment...This bring me back to, change has to come from the top as one person getting a metal water bottle and riding a bike won't do shit...so let's be realistic. Rusty, I wish it was MY restaurant, I would have retired by now, and you and I could discuss these things on the river every afternoon..

Change only comes from the top, you say? I have found very differently in my life experiences. Also, I did not say one man, I was saying man as in man-made, meaning all of mankind. I don't lay awake at night worrying about man's impact on our climate. But that's just me. What I don't get is those that constantly want to debate this topic never seem to live what they preach. Also, what are the current alternatives to fossil fuels we should be using that will keep our economy going while at the same time curtailing use of fossil fuels? Seems the only one that comes to mind is nuclear, and we don't have the stomach for that energy source anymore. Solar and wind remain too limited and is also fought wherever it tries to pop its head up.

 

[lightenup]

Change only comes from the top, you say? I have found very differently in my life experiences. Also, I did not say one man, I was saying man as in man-made, meaning all of mankind. I don't lay awake at night worrying about man's impact on our climate. But that's just me. What I don't get is those that constantly want to debate this topic never seem to live what they preach. Also, what are the current alternatives to fossil fuels we should be using that will keep our economy going while at the same time curtailing use of fossil fuels? Seems the only one that comes to mind is nuclear, and we don't have the stomach for that energy source anymore. Solar and wind remain too limited and is also fought wherever it tries to pop its head up.

Why are they fought every time they come up? Hmmm. Holy crap. wind power causes cancer and you can't watch TV....really? I don't lay awake at night either Rusty,but people who deny facts baffle me. Yes it's man made...Just this year we released 32 billion tons of co2 into the atmosphere, that is the equivalent of 162 years of volcanic eruptions in just one year. I have more facts if you are willing to listen, but alas, your mind is made up and you are not producing any facts to back up your hypothesis. You just choose to accuse me of not doing my part...give me some facts..Good thing some vice president brought the science to our attention.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Why are they fought every time they come up? Hmmm. Holy crap. wind power causes cancer and you can't watch TV....really? I don't lay awake at night either Rusty,but people who deny facts baffle me. Yes it's man made...Just this year we released 32 billion tons of co2 into the atmosphere, that is the equivalent of 162 years of volcanic eruptions in just one year. I have more facts if you are willing to listen, but alas, your mind is made up and you are not producing any facts to back up your hypothesis. You just choose to accuse me of not doing my part...give me some facts..Good thing some vice president brought the science to our attention.

But the actual science disputes that its man made. You can't seem to wrap your head around that one. You keep ignoring the simple thing that I pointed out, where the rise in CO2 levels does not correlate to a rise in temperatures as shown by the past data. Continually throwing out article after article stating "CO2 is the highest ever" doesn't make this go away.

Here's a news flash for you, we don't have as much influence over nature as we think do. We are also not the masters of our environment. Nature wins, every time.

 

[lightenup]

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/global-warming/temperature-change
yes it does...

 

[lightenup]

I was going to.let this go after the McD's CEO comment, but..
here is another good read...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecon...climate-change-with-a-sting-in-the-tail-73368
Yes, nature does win every time, she will have won when the human race has decimated itself to minute levels of existence...hopefully, we as a race are smarter than that.

 

[Trout Nazi]

I was going to.let this go after the McD's CEO comment, but..
here is another good read...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecon...climate-change-with-a-sting-in-the-tail-73368
Yes, nature does win every time, she will have won when the human race has decimated itself to minute levels of existence...hopefully, we as a race are smarter than that.

Not it when you look at the big picture, it doesn’t. A gas that makes up about .03% of our atmosphere (and technically isn’t even the strongest “greenhouse” gas) does not control our climate. And the human race will eventually be gone, like every other race before us.

 

[FIN-ITE 34]

Sorry TN, I have to go with LU on this because it's easier for my feeble mind to understand that friendly comic bubble guy than your charts.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Sorry TN, I have to go with LU on this because it's easier for my feeble mind to understand that friendly comic bubble guy than your charts.

Its ok I agree, graphs suck, so I'll give you the Cliff Notes version: Throughout the entire history of the planet, a rise in CO2 does not mean the temperature also goes up. And LU's graph also nicely illustrates a natural cycle at play.

 

[lightenup]

You guys didn't read the article did you...

Sure Co2 is just one part of a very complex process involving ocean temperatures, fine particles, chlorofluorocarbons, enteric fermentation, water vapor, deforestation and the such...C02 is an important part of it...denying this is happening and humans aren't a part of it is just ridiculous...The earth may have started warming naturally, but the levels at which we pollute will help be a catalyst to increase the levels of warming. This is proven science.

 

[Trout Nazi]

You guys didn't read the article did you...

Sure Co2 is just one part of a very complex process involving ocean temperatures, fine particles, chlorofluorocarbons, enteric fermentation, water vapor, deforestation and the such...C02 is an important part of it...denying this is happening and humans aren't a part of it is just ridiculous...The earth may have started warming naturally, but the levels at which we pollute will help be a catalyst to increase the levels of warming. This is proven science.

Read the article. Basically tells me nothing new. FYI, water vapor and methane are way, way more powerful greenhouse gases. Also, there were times when CO2 levels were over 5000ppm. The levels now don't even fall within standard deviation.

And on a completely different topic, so what if sea levels rise? It only inconveniences humans. Life on this planet evolved to withstand temperature shifts, and will go on.

Edit (so this thread doesn't become even more of a cluster fuck) - How is this "proven science"? Where is this magical empirical proof? I'd say its pretty far from proven. Everyone jumping on the band wagon does not constitute proof. Everyone also thought the Earth was flat at one point, and more recently, that we put a hole in our ozone layer. I think everyone needs to go back to school to learn science, how you actually prove things scientifically, and what constitutes a burden of proof.

 

[lightenup]

So all the ice cores that have been study show no correlation between greenhouse effect and warming...many do. That is fact, I didnt say that the warming now has been proven to be man made and is scientific fact, although a lot of signs point to yes. I agree, before this thread becomes a bigger mess and turns into a pissing match, you and I will probably both be dead before the fact is determined. So if we can agree to disagree. I will return to my first point, no matter what the cause, the climate is warming, why wouldn't we try to reduce reliance on fossil fuels and attempt to perfect alternate forms af energy. The answer is money.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Those same ice cores also point to CO2 levels going as a result of warming. It doesn't matter, because the Earth will eventually cool again, that is a scientific fact, shown by those same ice cores. As far as alternatives to fossil fuels, I have bad news there. Fossil fuels are where we are with our current state of technological evolution. Fossil fuels, uranium fuels rods, and hydro. Battery power isn't really an alternative because of the Law of Conservation of Energy (unless you've been drinking Elon's Cool Aid). You still need to burn a lump a lump coal, deplete uranium, or dam a river somewhere else to charge your battery, and there's even loss as that electricity is transmitted hundreds of miles. Until they figure out how to wirelessly transmit energy from a giant solar array in space, or figure out how to reverse engineer the alien anti-gravity drive in Area 51, we're stuck with burning dead dinosaurs.

I find it funny that you think there's some global conspiracy by the oil companies, and the like, to repress alternative energy, but when I propose that this global warming scare is manufactured to achieve the same thing (money), I'm crazy? The oil companies are actually competing with each other to develop alternative energy first, so that they can own the IP and license it. They have the means to hire the best scientists, and they do. So yea, its money, but for the opposite reason you think. If you think that the solution will come from some government somewhere, keep dreaming.

 

[lightenup]

Ok, so I don't think there is a global conspiracy silly man. It's powerful lobbies that sway policy. It our tax payer dollars going to find new oil instead of researching alternate fuels. Sure they aren't viable yet, but why not put more money to that. It's slashing environmental regulations to,"drill baby, drill" or revitalize the coal industry? Really?. Sway the needle and be a leader in innovation, not a follower. Those ice cores show C02 as a catalyst that magnified warming periods. So, as you believe, if this a natural warming period, we are setting ourselves up to magnify how far it goes. Now, can we be finished?

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Why are they fought every time they come up? Hmmm. Holy crap. wind power causes cancer and you can't watch TV....really? I don't lay awake at night either Rusty,but people who deny facts baffle me. Yes it's man made...Just this year we released 32 billion tons of co2 into the atmosphere, that is the equivalent of 162 years of volcanic eruptions in just one year. I have more facts if you are willing to listen, but alas, your mind is made up and you are not producing any facts to back up your hypothesis. You just choose to accuse me of not doing my part...give me some facts..Good thing some vice president brought the science to our attention.

It has nothing to do with whether or not I "believe" in man made global warming. It has to do with not wasting my time worrying about something that none of us can control. If you or anyone else is worried, and you clearly are, then do whatever you can to change your impact and be done with it. Write your politicians, but stop posting about it all day long for those of us that just aren't concerned for whatever our reasons are. As I have said repeatedly over the years, I believe man has had some impact, yes. But certainly in NO WAY do we understand nor can we properly quantify that impact. All species go extinct in time. All. Why should man be any different? But it won't happen while I'm still alive and likely not while my future great, great grandkids are born either.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Wait a sec, you think our tax dollars are funding oil exploration? You've got to be kidding me. The oil companies spend billions on exploration out of their own pockets. And how are our tax dollars supposed to fund innovation exactly? You have a misguided impression as to where the science and innovation actually happens, and I can tell you its not with anything the government is involved in (except the military). I've been dealing with the government for the last 25yrs from a scientific perspective, and can tell you that the greatest and brightest minds working there. Usually the conversation with them is as frustrating as this. If you're relying on NOAA and the EPA as your sources, man are you setting yourself up for disappointment.

You, and a lot of other folks else have already made up your mind based on the crap you've been fed, science be damned, so we're done. Also why ain't nothing gonna ever be changed.

 

[lightenup]

Our tax dollars most certainly fund oil exploration...
http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/
https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fa...-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs
https://www.fuelfreedom.org/oil-company-subsidies/