FUDR filing suit

[MACFLY]

Eye am so sorry.


I must have forgotten i was on a board full of grumpy old guys.
I will be sure to run the spell checker this time.
Not that I think grammer and spelling should be a concern, I am not writing a book.

Your wife thinks i am smart.

So you have knowledge of where fuel tanks and toxic waste are located and you have not done anything about it yourself. What does that say about you? Rather than come on this board and make juvenile statements about flyfisherman and tourism, both of which you know nothing about, you should go clean up behind your house and than try to educate yourself on the issues of channelizing streams and the effects they have on future floods. This is not some rinky dink web site JSIN. When you make comments like the one above, it only points out that you are incredibly ignorant and childish. If thats how you would like to be viewed than keep it up

 

[jsin607]

Its ok, the man from the DEC says the oil will float on top of the water and go away.
I know, this is not some rinky dink website, this is the motherload of assholes website.
You guys are like animal rights activists, the fish will live either way.
And if they dont, then I guess you will all have to go fish somewhere else.
:guns:

 

[MACFLY]

About what i expected from you in reply. Thanks for confirming it. You may be right that the fish will survive but you decided to make an attack on FUDR for not cleaning up the river while you were content to leave the same crap in the river yourself. You are a sad little man!!!

 

[jsin607]

i was attacking fudr because they suck, i said they could be doing something else with thier time, like cleaning the river.

I know I'm an asshole but on a side note, did anyone else see the signs the locals put up?
its a picture of a big excavator in the middle of a creek and the bucket is full of tROUT.
hah hah
and there is a caption next to the operators head that says: "People come first round here, by-god"

funny
maybe if i get ****ed off, i will rally local rednecks to take canoe trips down the west branch and skip rocks the whole way.

 

[Eagle Claw]

Jsin....While fisherman and hunters and the business they support might not matter to you, the businesses feed on each other like a feeding chain and sooner or later it filters down and will affect you. Lets say the hotels, resturants, gas stations and sportshops start failing-
the hotels use the services of electricians, painters,plumbers,landscapers, roofers. The resturants use the services of food suppliers and those mentioned above, the sport shops buy all kinds of stuff from other venders, the gas stations use mechanics and all these things are vital to real estate values which affect you. The last thing an area that is tight on jobs and wages needs is the business feeding chain made worse. If one were to use your logic that all conservation groups are nuts, I guess you would be happier if the air was dirty, the water was poluted, the soil was contaminated, real estate values fall, there were no visitors to the area---sounds like a solid plan to me---go for it. Hey, I have a better idea, why dont you move to an area that has no conservation groups, fisherman, hunters, hotels, resturants.............move to Afganistan, Irac or Sudan.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Isn't the internet great...
One can say whatever one wants to say.
One can be whoever one wants to be.
We can ignore whoever we want to ignore...

funny
maybe if i get ****ed off, i will rally local rednecks to take canoe trips down the west branch and skip rocks the whole way.

Rally the rednecks?!?? (Sorry board, you don't get many invites like this one...)
The only gosh durn thangs that'll rally a redneck is if you put a ban on his country music, beer, tabacky, rusty trucks or toothless women. Good luck on the skipping rocks from canoes thing. If it does pan out, take some pictures... they'd be priceless.

New joke contest!!!
How many rednecks does it take to paddle a canoe...?
Everyone start putting on your thinking caps.
There will be prizes for the best punchlines.

Jsin, what school do you go to?

 

[dcabarle]

New joke contest!!!
How many rednecks does it take to paddle a canoe...?
Everyone start putting on your thinking caps.
There will be prizes for the best punchlines.

Jsin, what school do you go to?

3... One to hold the oar, one to hold the rod, and one to dig it out of the front lawn.

Normally I'd have removed posts like these, but this one does a few things.

1. Proves my point that the people of Hancock/surrounding areas don't like outsiders.
2. Provides hours upon hours of entertainment. I love watching people make fools of themselves. (usually that's me, so letting someone else take the wheel for a while is a relief).

Should I move this thread to the private forums? I honestly don't want anyone to be offended or turned off to the site because of stuff like this.

 

[Eagle Claw]

It may be best to end this discussion, its getting way too nasty, people are saying things they really dont believe just to get someone else ****ed off, you never know who is reading this, what their reaction might be and what harm it may cause. It has served it purpose of getting stuff off your chest, having a little fun and now its time to say good by to this

 

[Future Fanatic]

3... One to hold the oar, one to hold the rod, and one to dig it out of the front lawn.

Normally I'd have removed posts like these, but this one does a few things.

1. Proves my point that the people of Hancock/surrounding areas don't like outsiders.
2. Provides hours upon hours of entertainment. I love watching people make fools of themselves. (usually that's me, so letting someone else take the wheel for a while is a relief).

Should I move this thread to the private forums? I honestly don't want anyone to be offended or turned off to the site because of stuff like this.

"dig it out of the front lawn", that's good. I would have gone with "back forty" myself,(or "front yard"; I'm not sure our yards qualify as lawns, we don't have "Chem Lawn trucks" like you suburban guys).

Dennis, if you believe that Jsin is being honest about who he is and what his feelings are, then it only proves that HE feels that way about fishermen. Don't YOU fall into the trap that they ALL feel the way he does.

I'm as sensitive to bashing locals due to some ignorant stereotype as anybody. I wasn't bashing all "locals". We do have our fair share of "rednecks", but in no way is that the description I would put on the majority of the population. In the same way I would not describe the average flatlander from downstate as being pushy, self-centered and self important... Well, that isn't accurate for ALL of them.

Have a great day!

 

[Pete]

......Should I move this thread to the private forums? I honestly don't want anyone to be offended or turned off to the site because of stuff like this.

Normally I'd suggest deleting the entire thread, but in this case it might serve a purpose.

Apparently this kid is going through a phase where rude is "cool". He's just blurting out the kind of stuff that more mature locals merely think.

It could serve as an insight to some of the local thinking when it's time to mend fences.

IMHO: The comments have served their purpose. It may be time to Lock the topic before it turns into an endless flame war.

 

[MACFLY]

i was attacking fudr because they suck, i said they could be doing something else with thier time, like cleaning the river.

Read a little ****ing harder, dick.

on a side note, did anyone else see the signs the locals put up?
its a picture of a big excavator in the middle of a creek and the bucket is full of tROUT.
hah hah
and there is a caption next to the operators head that says: "People come first round here, by-god"

funny
maybe if i get ****ed off, i will rally local rednecks to take canoe trips down the west branch and skip rocks the whole way.

JS

I know its difficult when you have the comprehension of a 2 year old. Perhaps your anger has made it impossible for you to read. I read your post. It was easy to read. You complain about an organization that developed a long term plan to remediate the flooding and improve the river. Doubt you have ever bothered to read the information on their website. Now according to a couple of people on this forum they went to the township to try to work it out but apparently the township has a similar attitude and mentality. So you complain that FUDR has not cleaned up the river and you point to several locations where there are toxic chemicals as an example of something that needs to be addressed. Since you know where these locations are I asked why you have not cleaned it up or had someone come and clean it up. Your response is that the oil will just magically float away.

JS let me clue you in. You cant rant and rave all you want. Change is coming to Hancock and the upper delaware region. It will get more crowded and more people will fish that stream. If the tributaries are clogged and we cant support a wild trout stream the state will stock the hell out of it. Either way its going to get worse for you not better. Your time is better spent trying to work in a more positive manner to make sure the process is orderly and addresses the issues of the township rather than displaying an incredible lack of maturity.

 

[EB WADER]

When I was leaving Hancock on Sunday evening there was a homemade sign just before getting on 17 that had in big letters FUDR with a red line across it and some writing under it.Anybody else see it ?

 

[Eagle Claw]

I think we just need to ignore the nasty stuff and keep with the positive, dont even respond to jsin. Lets be good ambassadors of our sport, respect the people who live in the Catskills, be friendly and not let guys like this speak for everyone,,,I have to believe he does not speak for a large group and even if he does, once folks cool off a little will also realize they do not want him to be their spokesman.

 

[Future Fanatic]

When I was leaving Hancock on Sunday evening there was a homemade sign just before getting on 17 that had in big letters FUDR with a red line across it and some writing under it.Anybody else see it ?

And it wasn't all that long ago that 100% ( )of the businesses in Hancock signed that petition supporting FUD. Ahh, the good ole days. Amazing how things can seemingly change so quickly. Maybe in 6 months or so it will turn back the other way.

 

[sqerl]

Late to the party!

Ya know, I had this whole thing typed out and then read some recent posts and thought that I didnt need to post it. but for the sake of argument, I will post it and get feedback.... Thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated!

Did I miss something here?

jsin607 makes some comments, the point of his post is lost, comments are made, insults fly and were in the same place as when this thread started...

tell me if I'm wrong, but isnt the story as follows:

1) lots of rain
2) bad flooding
3) locals are frustrated and hurt by 3rd horrbile flood in 2 years.
A) trying to do whatever they can to prevent damage by the next flood
B) area does not have the resources (fianncial, emotional, etc) to wait for some type of long term solution and takes matters into their own hands.
4) FUDR files lawsuit to stop landowners from A & B to protect trout (natural resources)

It's no wonder there are hard feelings since that area is not NYC and therefore has limited financial resources. The PEOPLE are recovering and from THEIR point of view it appears that there is an outpouring of $$$ to feed the trout but no one is pouring $$$ (resources) into those people that were hit hardest. How would anyone feel if their house was in ruins and a whole bunch of people showed up - not to help them (the people) - but to feed and take care of the worms in their back yard?

As an outdoorsman and conservationist, I understand what the FUDR is trying to do and they should be appreciated for thier efforts to maintain the environment and keep such a resource in prime condition... BUT! The PEOPLE that live there should come first. Every fisherman that ever crossed someone's property in that area should show up at someone's house - not with fishing gear - but with shovels, tools or something that will help the residents fix something that is still in need of repair.

As much as we as fisherman encourage others to protect our environment, we should know full well the hardships POEPLE suffer at the hands of Mother Nature. Tsunamis and hurricanes have devastated hundreds of thousands of people. A freak weather system has hit our region 3 times in two years and those people receive very little publicity or support from the world like other regions have. Yet we still expect them to open their doors and welcome in the world as they still dig themselves out. How many of you saw the devastation from the tsunami and criticised the vacationers for laying around while the locals were recovering their dead? How do you think a resident of any "fishing community" would feel if there are trying to dig themselves out and some fisherman says "hey! i just tripped over that branch and its YOUR fault!! PAY ME!!"

It only takes the action of a few to sterotype or "profile" an entire group and unfortunately this has happened to both sides of this issue.

As much as we as humans need a symbiotic relationship with Mother Nature, we as socialized individuals need to have a symbiotic relationship with each other - namely the people that live on or near the resource and the people that use that resource. Since we are not talking about an amusement park here, it's harder to manage. With open lands depeleting and more and more of our open resources disappearing, any organization should learn how to help the people first and their lives will be much easier when managing the resources....

Anyway.. sorry if I rambled on here, but the though just kept going. If I am wrong in anything I mentioned, please let me know. I hate to see the destruction of natural resources but can understand what is happening if the people of Hancock are not taken care of.... or are they (taken care of) and I just dont know?

 

[Eagle Claw]

Do Not Respond To Jsin------he Will Then Have Two Choices, Either Go Away Or Talk To Himself. Do Not Give Him A Stage, Right Now He Thinks He Is Some Kind Of Rock Star With Many Others Cheering Him On, I Think This Is Not The Case.

 

[brachycentrus]

It's really convenient to misdirect the anger at FUDR. Some here seem to actually be relishing the bad press that they are getting and perhaps, not so subtlely, encouaging it.

If you have followed the debacle from the beginning, FUDR did just what they were formed to do, try and protect and enhance the resource.

The anger and resentment should be directed to the Hancock Town Works and supervisor of that department..
Alledgedly, he was the one that put the town in possible violation of the Federal Clean Water Act.
Even though, NY DEC, gave out the general permit, from what I can see, they cannot be sued or held liable for any work the permittee does

 

[MACFLY]

Reply to Squerl

I think some of the points are valid but the overall issue is still unresolved. There is a perception here that FUDR and outsiders in general dont care about the people of that area. I dont believe that to be true but as often is the case perception is reality. I live in Bucks County and people have suffered down here as well (business and homeowners). Many people have received support both locally and from the outside. Perhaps it would have been a good idea for these groups to lend some support to Hancock during the flooding as a way of demonstrating that they just dont care about the fishery.

Your post implies that the remedy of channelizing solves the problem. I would be willing to bet that it doesnt and that things get worse. I think thats an important point and not one that should be glossed over. Second it has been stated that FUDR attempted to contact the township to work on an overall solution and were rebuffed. Third there are examples both real and anecdotal that the township does not think too highly of any of us that dont live there. At the end of the day, this is about getting people to take a step back and come up with a real long term solution. Reactionary measures almost always tend to do more damage. It might be wise for the various groups (TU,DRF, FUDR) to extend an olive branch to get things calmed down but we shouldnt absolve the township of any responsibility in this. If they are breaking the law then the people responsible should be held accountable. The river and the resource belongs to everyone not just a select few.

 

[EB WADER]

Macfly,
Thoughtful ,wise and well said post.

 

[jsin607]

And it wasn't all that long ago that 100% ( )of the businesses in Hancock signed that petition supporting FUD. Ahh, the good ole days. Amazing how things can seemingly change so quickly. Maybe in 6 months or so it will turn back the other way.

100% of what businesses?
I am willing to bet, that 100% was the Hancock Partners.
A group formed by a few local business owners, such as; The real estate agent, the car dealership, and the guy who owns the golf course.
According to the Hancock Partners one of there goals are industry, tourism, and beautification.
So far all they have done is install a clock, and some fancy signs with fish on them.

FUDR may have thought they had some local support, but it was only from the real estate agent and the car dealer.

Just for the record, I am not totally against tourism, economic development, or seasonal residents.
I just think it should be kept in check.
I also believe there should be a hefty tax imposed on any second-home owners in delaware county.
Because if you can afford a second home in our town, you should have to pay more.
If we are going to have such a high number of seasonal residents, who make significantly more money than we do, they should be funding things that the town really needs.

 

[AKSkim]

I also believe there should be a hefty tax imposed on any second-home owners in delaware county.
Because if you can afford a second home in our town, you should have to pay more.

Lad, you just may have a little problem there with something called... the law.

However, you have my permission to set up your guillotine in the town square and behead any whitey flisherman with a "I Love FUDR" tee shirt you please to help you keep them in check.

As always....

AKS

 

[jsin607]

Oh yea, and as far as the whole channelizing thing is concerned.
I dont think Lordville creek spawns to many trout, there has been a delta at the mouth of the creek for as long as i can remember, that no trout is going to get through.
I would be willing to bet, half of the pictures on FUDR's website, show streams that dont spawn any trout.
I dont suppose any of you were here during the week after the flood.
Some of the areas had so much gravel and debris piled up from the flood, that if there were any trout trying to get through, the channelizing more than likely helped them.


I was thinking of printing this thread, and hanging it around town.
SounD lyke ah goOd Idea, ya`ll?

 

[jsin607]

Lad, you just may have a little problem there with something called... the law.

However, you have my permission to set up your guillotine in the town square and behead any whitey flisherman with a "I Love FUDR" tee shirt you please to help you keep them in check.

As always....

AKS

Well, we could always revert back to what used to happen.
We could burn your log cabin down during the week when your not around.

 

[jsin607]

I am going to s SUNY school, i suppose thats not good enough.

i just heard that the railroad is closing off all access via the railroad tracks, because some dick-mo lawyer, parked his cadillac on the crossing and went fishing.
Then he had to pay for the damage to the locamotive.

Do you see why you get stereotyped as "assholes from the city".

 

[sqerl]

...perception...channelizing...Reactionary...

Thanks for the reply!... Just some clarification and additional thoughts...

I do not condone the channelizing. The FUDR did what they had to do to stop the damage from being done... It's just a shame that there was no PR firm involved to reduce the "reactionary" impact

From an outsider's perspective (both to the FUDR and Hancock), it appears the town is still suffering from the effects of the floods. They (the town) apparently have not received enough recovery assistance to reduce the impact of the floods. They took matters into their own hands to "fix" the perceived problem. FUDR is trying to stop the "fix" as it will only worsen the damage already done and prolong recovery to the natural resource. To the residents, they are trying their hardest to prevent further damage to themselves and their property only being told to stop. Regardless of illegality of channelization how would anyone feel if they were told to stop trying to save themselves?

I would hope that the FUDR has acheived what it needed to do and stopped the channelizing. I would hope that the town has rec'd the needed resources to recover from the flood and to be in a better poisiton to accept the help the FUDR is offering them to better manage the resource.

If the people have not recovered sufficiently from the damaging effects of the flood, then they will not accept any help unless it clearly defines how it helps them now. Once the people are being taken care of (or the support is clearly visable), then efforts to restore the area in a manner that supports the local economy and the long term care of the fishery would be accepted. Let me clearly state that the FUDR is not responsible for what should be Federal Funding for Disaster Recovery. If there has been little to no support for the residents to recover, then the FUDR positioned itself to be the focal point of all the towns pent up frustration. Although not intended, this has become a balancing act between FUDR/long term solution and Hancock/ short term recovery.

The FUDR may want to the town to accept their help, but is it the help the town needs now?
While maybe a short sighted vision, for someone with a stream 20' away from their front door means nothing when you've lost everything you've owned.

The focus has to be the people first. (not saying that it isn't, but perception is reality)

It's a shame that the idiot that tripped over fallen debris and sued didn't use his clout to help out a financially strapped town first. Maybe he wouldn't have had to worry about the debris then....

and can the rest of you stop bickering? while its funny to read, some of you seem to take it waaay too personal. a few of you need a sense of humor and need to drop it...

 

[NJFred]

Funny... for one JSIN on this board there were a dozen local Hancock folks who welcomed this flyfisherman from Jersey with his waders on and his car with a NJ license plate in Hancock last week. While some locals may be ticked off at FUDR up there there are more than enough folks who were as pleasant as usual in the area.

JSIN is here for one reason and one reason only... just to stir the pot.

 

[Fly Tier]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]For anyone that wants to hear these issues and have a chance to be heard, with the people that actually make the rules:
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
The next meeting of the Regulated Flow Advisory Committee is scheduled for Tuesday, September 19, 2006, at the West Branch Angler Resort , P.O. Box 102, Deposit, New York . This meeting, which is open to the public, will begin at 10 a.m. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Topics proposed for discussion are as follows:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] A. Approval of minutes from RFAC meeting of February 23, 2006 (5 minutes)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]B. Presentation by NYSDEC of Concept for Long-Term, Multi-Objective Reservoir Management Program (30 minutes)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]C. Discussion with Interested Parties of Long-Term Reservoir Management Program (60 minutes)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]D. Discussion with Interested Parties of Flood Mitigation (60 minutes)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]E. Election of RFAC Chair and Vice Chair (10 minutes)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]F. Next Meeting[/FONT]

 

[jsin607]

What is the big deal about channelizing?
I dont think the town of hancock created any long channels.
Most of what i seen was just repair, and what possible damage could the bulldozer do, after the water already permanently altered the stream as it was before?
I drove down lordville road, as soon as they dumped enough fill into what used to be the side of the mountain, from the church up to the top of the hill.
Sure you could say its better to leave nature alone, and let it go about its merry way.
You could also be fishing in a warm river, if nature had its way.
I personally dont think anything is going to happen to the town of Hancock, the DEC is always turning there back on things.

I also didnt hear anyone mention anything about the tar pits at the old factory in apex, I looks to me like most of that stuff washed down stream.

 

[Eagle Claw]

NJ Fred.....good to know the people of Hancock and Roscoe area the same great folks they always were..........too bad he painted them as a bunch of pricks who hate fly fisherman.
I like most of them and was getting concerned we were no longer welcome. I was even considering not going there with my fishing buddy for our annual 10 day trip in May, we had already collected brochures from other destinations.

 

[jsin607]

Just dont park your car on the railroad tracks!!
Try not to "play" to many fish to the point of exhaustion, and throw them back in the water, like some kind of catch and release fairy.

Nothing ****'s me off more than a fly fisherman who tells you, that youre hurting the fish with your treble hook, meanwhile he has a big brown on his pole for 10 minutes, plays it so long that it has a heart attack, and then toss's it back in the water to float belly up.

Catch and Release!