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Letter from Craig Findley...FUDR

NJFred

Trout Hunter
Hi all,

Here is a letter from FUDR I recieved in my e-mail last night outlining why FDUR filed the intent to sue. Interesting reading.


FUDR’S LETTER OF INTENT
TO TOWN OF HANCOCK
BACKGROUND AND CLARIFICATION

In response to the widespread channelizing and dredging that has been done in the Township of Hancock after the recent flooding, on August 25th, FUDR filed a formal Sixty Day Notice of Intent to sue the Town citing serious violations of the Federal Clean Water Act. This action was taken after attempts to contact Town officials to explore alternatives and stop the destruction, were unsuccessful. In the ensuing weeks, as a result of this action, there has been considerable controversy surrounding FUDR and the filing of the Intent Letter. Much of this discussion has been emotional, much has been inaccurate, much misunderstood and some misrepresentative. My hope, with this letter, is to try to clarify and set the record straight.

Certainly, for FUDR to deny that we are concerned about the fishery, would contradict our mission and would be disingenuous. We do care. The wholesale channelizing has severely damaged – some permanently - every trout spawning tributary on the East Branch and many on the New York side of the main stem. Critical aquatic insect life has been obliterated, fish have been trapped in the excavations and died, and silting and erosion – a concern for both the environment and area residents - will be dramatically increased. However, FUDR’s action is far from being just about the wild trout, as some publicly argue. There are numerous, reputable hydrologic, scientific and environmental engineering studies and position papers published on the problems caused by channelizing. These expert scientific opinions illustrate that with the same amount of rain, channelizing increases both the volume and the velocity of the water in a channelized tributary. As an example, the upper most
channelized tributary on the East Branch will add increased volume and velocity as it enters the East Branch. As it travels downstream, each channelized tributary will do the same, that is, add increased water volume and velocity. These cumulative increases, tributary by tributary, become increasingly destructive the farther downstream they travel. Every tributary on the East Branch has been channelized. Depending on the amount of rain, the increased volume/velocity can be dramatic - and it can be dangerous. Channelizing is neither an immediate remedy, nor a long-term solution. The damage to wildlife, the damage to the environment and the increased dangers to floodplain residents are all among the reasons why channelizing is against Federal law, State law and, in many instances, Town law.

Some in the area who don’t understand the human and environmental dangers of widespread, massive channelizing have adopted the phrase “people over fish.” They publicly accuse me and this organization of caring more about the fish than people. I sincerely hope that comment is made from emotion, not conviction. In the recent flooding, people lost their homes, their family belongings, their jobs – and some their lives. To accuse this organization of caring more about catching a fish than these tragic losses is as callous as it is despicable.

In their reaction to the Letter of Intent, some have suggested that the widespread channelizing and dredging was in direct response to an emergency. There certainly were - and in some instances, there remain - critical emergencies: medical attention, evacuation, housing, relocation, infrastructure, social services that had to be addressed. It’s a tragically long list that rightfully includes the removal of flood related debris from the tributaries. Yet many of the large-scale excavation/channelizing projects didn’t begin until days - in some instances weeks - after the flooding had ended. Were these emergency measures? And it has also been publicly acknowledged, that one of the added benefits to the channelizing, was the opportunity for mining gravel from the tributaries for use on Town roads.

Another misunderstanding, is that FUDR is an organization of wealthy out-of-towners who care nothing of the region or its people; that our only concern is in pursuing a recreational interest in fly fishing. FUDR, much like any membership organization, does have some who are wealthy and some who certainly are not. Most members, like the average organization, fall somewhere in between. Many of our Board and our general members live in, or very near, the Town of Hancock, and a good many more live in communities along the Delaware River. Many of these members suffered property damage - some suffered severe property damage. All were affected. As travel restrictions began to ease, some of these members did in fact lend a helping hand to family, friends and neighbors. These same members also kept FUDR updated on the tragic state of affairs. We were genuinely heartsick. Shortly after the 4th of July holiday, I called Town Supervisor Sam Rowe and offered whatever help this
organization might be able to provide. He was appreciative. He has, in subsequent conversations with both myself and with others, confirmed my call and the fact that we were the only organization to make such an offer.

Contrary to the suggestions of some, FUDR has demonstrated a longstanding concern for the region and its residents. We have consistently stressed that a healthy, vibrant fishery would have a positive effect on the region’s economy. Does emphasizing this potential impact help us accomplish our mission regarding the fishery? Perhaps, to some limited extent. However, stressing the economic potential the fishery could bring, was intended far more to help increase awareness within the region of the valuable resource it has, a resource that could be marketed to the further benefit of the region. There are areas of common interest that this organization has long and publicly advocated. Chief among these has been our call for adequate and constant releases for the fishery. Such releases, in addition to helping the fishery, would lower full or high reservoir levels, important during flood prone periods. We’ve consistently argued that water should be released from the bottom
of reservoirs to, at least, equally offset reservoir spillage. In these areas, and I believe in other areas, we do have a common interest and a common opposition: the NYSDEC and the NYCDEP.

We would also point out, that for nearly a year before the recent flooding, we have stressed the need for scientific floodplain/tributary restoration. We sought out a firm that specializes in restoration. We developed, in concert with that firm, a long-term restoration program and we announced Phase I of that plan at a meeting of several state, local and Town officials, and the leadership other conservation organizations. The presentation was held at the Hancock Town Hall. During the presentation, the problems inherent with channelizing and dredging were clearly presented. Also clearly presented was that floodplain restoration, by far the largest part of the proposed Plan, was specifically intended to mitigate water volume and velocity from traveling downstream – a benefit to people and the environment, but of relatively little direct benefit to the fishery. Tributary restoration (especially below the floodplains) is the lesser aspect of the proposed plan and would be
of more direct benefit to stream stabilization and to the fishery. FUDR’s proposal detailed the need for substantial local official and citizen input and involvement (essentially a partnership), and for hiring local workers whenever possible.

We regret having to take the course of action we did - filing a Sixty Day Notice of Intent to sue. However, we would also point out that attempts to contact Town officials before sending the Letter, were not given the courtesy of a reply. Email sent to the Town, et al, pointing out the problems of channelizing, was apparently disregarded. It’s our understanding one of the reasons for a legally required sixty day Notice of Intent, before a suit can be brought, is to allow time for the opposing parties to see if a non court means can be found to correct the damage. FUDR attempted to do this on three separate occasions – Town officials rejected each of these attempts. Less than two days after Town officials received the Letter of Intent, Supervisor Rowe called and we had a long conversation, at the end of which we agreed to meet, to jointly tour the tributaries with independent restoration experts and to assess what could be done to correct the damage. I believe we each
felt the conversation ended on a positive and proactive note. Two days later, the Supervisor called and informed me that the meeting was off; that the Town Attorney wanted to “take the matter to court.” Apparently, despite this, two weeks later, the Supervisor did tour the tributaries with two members of the FUDR Board; we were later informed the Town Council opposed any further cooperative efforts. And again, over the Labor Day weekend, a NY State Assembly member offered to serve as an intervener; we agreed, were told the Supervisor agreed, however the Town Council rejected the Assembly member’s offer.

It’s unfortunate that Town officials didn’t seek the counsel of appropriate expertise either before or at the time the heavy equipment stopped removing debris and began channelizing. Scientifically based, comprehensive, tributary restoration that helps to safeguard both people and the environment - and that could have been done at the time – now desperately needs to be done. We remain hopeful that Town officials will reverse their decision and choose to work with this organization to properly correct the damage.

Sincerely,
Craig Findley
President
Friends of the Upper Delaware River
<www.fudr.org>
 
Just read the first two paragraphs (hard to surf the web at this job)... So far the letter looks like Craig is clearing things up. I never doubted the FUDR's intent, and have more or less always sided with them. Admittedly, I foolishly voted in the most recent FUDR poll (agree with the FUDR and with the way they've handled the situation). I say foolishly because I never really got Craigs side of the story or any FUDR members side of the story. I was basing my vote on heresay. I think this letter will however clean the air, at least for me.

Thanks for posting it, Fred!
 
I live down river in Trenton and will more than likely feel the effects of the channelizing up north. People over fish or is it more like those people over all the people down river. If this is true I am no scientist but reading this is really making me mad! You would think all the towns south of Hancock would have tried to stop this.
 
The wholesale channelizing has severely damaged – some permanently - every trout spawning tributary on the East Branch and many on the New York side of the main stem.

Does anyone want to share what they think Mr. Findley means when he writes this(permanently damaged)? Or what do you think this means? Thanks for your thoughts.

AND... does anyone know if FUDR intends to sue?
 
Does anyone want to share what they think Mr. Findley means when he writes this(permanently damaged)? Or what do you think this means? Thanks for your thoughts.

AND... does anyone know if FUDR intends to sue?

My thought.....permanently damaged would mean that without human involvement, no aspect of the stream would ever be able to get back to "normal" if left up to mother nature.
 
I was at the public meeting held in Hancock on September 19th, that was hosted by the DRBC, to DISCUSS FLOOD MITIGATION ISSUES. Members of the decree parties were all there, including NYC DEP, NYC DEC, etc. Sam Rowe, Hancock Town Supervisor, was there, along with the Colchester town supervisor, business folk from Deposit, etc. From the opinions expressed, I got the feeling that the residents of these towns feel that the fishing community puts "fish over people". And I am guessing that one of the reasons for this opinion is the FUDR threat to sue. While I am in general agreement with the position that stream dredging is clearly not the way to address this issue (TU has taken a proactive approach here) I believe there are alternative politically productive approaches other than threats of suits in addressing this major problem.
Craig was NOT at this meeting (I did see Phil Chase, who I believe is still a member of FUDR, although I am not sure), and so I was not able to observe any interactions that Craig might have had on that day with Mr. Rowe. I bet it would have been interesting to watch.
OM
 
Just read the first two paragraphs (hard to surf the web at this job)... So far the letter looks like Craig is clearing things up. I never doubted the FUDR's intent, and have more or less always sided with them. Admittedly, I foolishly voted in the most recent FUDR poll (agree with the FUDR and with the way they've handled the situation). I say foolishly because I never really got Craigs side of the story or any FUDR members side of the story. I was basing my vote on heresay. I think this letter will however clean the air, at least for me.

Thanks for posting it, Fred!

I read through the entire letter. Any doubts I had about their intent or actions have also been eliminated. I found this explanation to be non-emotional and genuine in its intent. I had originally voted in the poll as agreeing with their stance on the problem, but not on their legal tactics. Actually now, I think they did make a good faith attempt to communicate and try to work with the Town, and their pursuit of legal means seems to be a justified last resort.

The reality of the current state of affairs in the US.....we live in a litigious society. To get the channelizing corrective actions implemented, at this point will take legal actions.
 
The DEC gave permission to the town of Hancock to do this, yes?
Hold on, THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION gave permission to do this, yes? Mr. Findley said so right on the FUDR website.

"the DEC readily issued over 400 permits (far too many for the Regional Enforcement unit to even monitor) to both the Town of Hancock and to individuals, allowing them to bring in the bulldozers, backhoes and steam shovels. Even with this absurd number of permits, NY State Senator John Bonacic, perhaps reflecting election year politics, provided covering fire for this destructive course of action by publicly chiding the DEC for not issuing enough “dredging permits.” "

Why sue Hancock? As far as Hancock is concerned, their state issued them the permits to do what they did. Sue the DEC for giving the permits to do it, if it's illegal in some way. I want to see that.:rolleyes:

Dennis, you say that this statement "clears the air"; I say it's a smoke screen.

Oh yeah, "steam shovels" ???
 
The DEC gave permission to the town of Hancock to do this, yes?
Hold on, THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION gave permission to do this, yes? Mr. Findley said so right on the FUDR website.

"the DEC readily issued over 400 permits (far too many for the Regional Enforcement unit to even monitor) to both the Town of Hancock and to individuals, allowing them to bring in the bulldozers, backhoes and steam shovels. Even with this absurd number of permits, NY State Senator John Bonacic, perhaps reflecting election year politics, provided covering fire for this destructive course of action by publicly chiding the DEC for not issuing enough “dredging permits.” "

Why sue Hancock? As far as Hancock is concerned, their state issued them the permits to do what they did. Sue the DEC for giving the permits to do it, if it's illegal in some way. I want to see that.:rolleyes:

Dennis, you say that this statement "clears the air"; I say it's a smoke screen.

Oh yeah, "steam shovels" ???
Guess I should have put two and two together. My fault for not reading the FUDR website stuff. I just don't have the time for that, so I go by what's written here as I'm sure many others do the same. It looks like an honest letter from my point of view. But you're right... Why not sue the DEC rather than Hancock. <i'm agreeing="" with="" you="">. :) On the bright side of things, it gives us a good content to argue and complain about! :)
</i'm>
 
No smoke screen here FF. Dec issued permits to the town to clear debris ONLY. The town was not issued permits to channelize ANYTHING. No state agency can be sued for failure to prosecute, they are protected by law. Hancock is being sued for exceeding the scope of the permits, channelization was their choice. This info was given to me from an FUDR board member. You all can speculate about who it is, and in the future I'm sure if the air needs to be cleared, more info will be forthcoming. Can anyone say "Deep Throat."

Rich

PS, I'm leaving for vacation this morning, so I will not be able to respond to this.
 
the word is Track Hoe...

Or maybe, Excavator...? Steam Shovel... all I can think of is an old Bugs Bunny cartoon with him behind the controls of one, or was it Elmer Fudd...? I'm sure they must still be in use some where (maybe a museum). I hope the other facts of his "essay" were more accurate.

Let me say again that I do believe that the practice of channelization is misguided. I wish that it hadn't been done. The benefits of doing it, do not out weigh the possible detriments. But, I DO NOT ACCEPT the contention that streams have been "damaged – some permanently" (I accept damaged, but not the permanently part). That language was used to scare and anger those concerned with the fishery (keep your eyes open to what you are being told, no matter who says it (even moi)). It's not like these streams have been lined with concrete. Even without human intervention, Mother Nature will take over and do as she pleases in the future.

Baby Blue, when you get back from your vacation of course, can you check with your super secret connection and find out which of these streams has been "damaged permanently"? I'm sure we would all like to know. Also, is there a precedent that FUDR knows of (there must be) where a municipality can be successfully sued when even the DEC has not stepped in and stopped the work being done (or levied any fines. Have they?)

As an aside, tangentially related as it may be, when I put in my driveway, we had to cross a small creek (small, six feet across MAYBE). The plan was to put in an eight-foot high culvert. We had to fill out a bunch of paperwork, complete with drawings and measurements... What a hassle. They denied it. We couldn't touch the creek bed (something about the time of year that it was being done-early May I believe). We had to build a bridge (and not touch the creek bed with equipment in the process). I can remember standing on one of the concrete piers (couldn't drop any wet concrete into the water either) waving to the farmer who had just brought his tractor and manure spreader through the creek for like the hundreth time that year... anyway the DEC at least doubled my bill for getting across the creek to save a few trout (that they surmised were there, but to be honest... I've known the creek for some twenty-five years, and I'm gonna say it didn't help a one).

Has anyone gotten the DEC's take on all of this? It seems that SOMEBODY here would have an inside line as to whom to talk to.

Well, at the end of the day, I think that FUDR's "Intent to Sue" (We'll see in a month or so, yes?) is a GREAT SIGN. GREAT SIGN!! Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that some FUDR members warned us (on this very site) that the impending "flow plan" would be the death of the fishery? Oh, for you newbies to the site, the prognostications were DIRE and HORRIFYING. Well, it's been in place a while, we've had some extreme weather and catastrophic flood events, and here FUDR is, looking to remediate and save the tribs. Why would they go through all this trouble if they weren't optimistic about the future of the fishery? A great sign indeed!

Enjoy the rest of the weekend, all.
 
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Or maybe, Excavator...? Steam Shovel... all I can think of is an old Bugs Bunny cartoon with him behind the controls of one, or was it Elmer Fudd...? I'm sure they must still be in use some where (maybe a museum). I hope the other facts of his "essay" were more accurate.

Let me say again that I do believe that the practice of channelization is misguided. I wish that it hadn't been done. The benefits of doing it, do not out weigh the possible detriments. But, I DO NOT ACCEPT the contention that streams have been "damaged – some permanently" (I accept damaged, but not the permanently part). That language was used to scare and anger those concerned with the fishery (keep your eyes open to what you are being told, no matter who says it (even moi)). It's not like these streams have been lined with concrete. Even without human intervention, Mother Nature will take over and do as she pleases in the future.

Baby Blue, when you get back from your vacation of course, can you check with your super secret connection and find out which of these streams has been "damaged permanently"? I'm sure we would all like to know. Also, is there a precedent that FUDR knows of (there must be) where a municipality can be successfully sued when even the DEC has not stepped in and stopped the work being done (or levied any fines. Have they?)

As an aside, tangentially related as it may be, when I put in my driveway, we had to cross a small creek (small, six feet across MAYBE). The plan was to put in an eight-foot high culvert. We had to fill out a bunch of paperwork, complete with drawings and measurements... What a hassle. They denied it. We couldn't touch the creek bed (something about the time of year that it was being done-early May I believe). We had to build a bridge (and not touch the creek bed with equipment in the process). I can remember standing on one of the concrete piers (couldn't drop any wet concrete into the water either) waving to the farmer who had just brought his tractor and manure spreader through the creek for like the hundreth time that year... anyway the DEC at least doubled my bill for getting across the creek to save a few trout (that they surmised were there, but to be honest... I've known the creek for some twenty-five years, and I'm gonna say it didn't help a one).

Has anyone gotten the DEC's take on all of this? It seems that SOMEBODY here would have an inside line as to whom to talk to.

Well, at the end of the day, I think that FUDR's "Intent to Sue" (We'll see in a month or so, yes?) is a GREAT SIGN. GREAT SIGN!! Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that some FUDR members warned us (on this very site) that the impending "flow plan" would be the death of the fishery? Oh, for you newbies to the site, the prognostications were DIRE and HORRIFYING. Well, it's been in place a while, we've had some extreme weather and catastrophic flood events, and here FUDR is, looking to remediate and save the tribs. Why would they go through all this trouble if they weren't optimistic about the future of the fishery? A great sign indeed!

Enjoy the rest of the weekend, all.

Perhaps they are interested in saving the tribs because they know the existing flow plan will expire and the opportunity for a new one ,which will be better for the fishery, is more likely this time around. Future you seem very focused on the one or two inaccurate sentences than the context of the whole issue. By the way I have seen streams permanently damaged. I have no idea in this case if that has happened but the tenor of your email seems to be personal. Are you unhappy with FUDR? If so why.
 
Or maybe, Excavator...? Steam Shovel... all I can think of is an old Bugs Bunny cartoon with him behind the controls of one, or was it Elmer Fudd...? I'm sure they must still be in use some where (maybe a museum).

Now we know where FF really lives, Fantasy Farm.

As always,

AK Skim
 
Perhaps they are interested in saving the tribs because they know the existing flow plan will expire and the opportunity for a new one ,which will be better for the fishery, is more likely this time around. Future you seem very focused on the one or two inaccurate sentences than the context of the whole issue. By the way I have seen streams permanently damaged. I have no idea in this case if that has happened but the tenor of your email seems to be personal. Are you unhappy with FUDR? If so why.

"...One or two inaccurate sentences... " Two questions: Are you sure that it's just one or two? And why might there be inaccuracies? I'll try to find you another later. Are you a member of the FUDR organization?

My signature, there for quite some time, is in place based upon my feelings, in part, of FUDR. I believe the motivations of men are often different from what they would have us believe. You'd have to delve deeply into threads past to get the whole story, I'm not going to rehash it...

Fantasy Farm? This coming from a guy who has been through at least three screen names on his way to finding an identity that he can stick with? Good one...

But a broken clock is right two times each day so yes I do live on a fantasy farm. My fantasy. I call it my 140 acres of Nirvana. (Thanks for the opportunity to gloat; I try to bust a pic out to you city folk once a year or so. ;) Hey AK I hear you've got some waterfront property, why not show us the view?
 

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No smoke screen here FF. Dec issued permits to the town to clear debris ONLY.
Rich
PS, I'm leaving for vacation this morning, so I will not be able to respond to this.

I hate to throw this into the mix while Babyblue is off to some exotic locale, but it looks as if maybe his FUDR Board Member "deep throat" MIGHT have fed him some misinformation (I'd hate to think it was Disinformation). According to MY sources ;) the permit reads something like this:

"Routine repairs, as defined by the general permit, include: repair, replacement or clearing of existing bridges, road culverts and appurtenances; removal flood-deposited debris, such as trees, logs, stumps, brush, trash and similar organic material, from stream channel; installation and repair of rip-rap and other permanent stream bank stabilization measures; and clearing stream channels of gravel and boulders with limited removal of gravel bars.

SPECIAL CONDITIONS:

4. Although all types of flood-carried debris as well as gravel may be removed from beneath bridges and within culvert openings and along roadways, this permit does not authorize the grading of stream channels.

9. Gravel shall be removed by "skimming" the surface of the gravel bar to a depth no lower than one foot above the water level of the stream at the time of work. No gravel shall be removed from below the normal low water level."

It specifically states "this permit does not authorize the grading of stream channels" but certainly the work that IS allowed is far more than clearing debris "ONLY".
 
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"...One or two inaccurate sentences... " Two questions: Are you sure that it's just one or two? And why might there be inaccuracies? I'll try to find you another later. Are you a member of the FUDR organization?

My signature, there for quite some time, is in place based upon my feelings, in part, of FUDR. I believe the motivations of men are often different from what they would have us believe. You'd have to delve deeply into threads past to get the whole story, I'm not going to rehash it...

Fantasy Farm? This coming from a guy who has been through at least three screen names on his way to finding an identity that he can stick with? Good one...

But a broken clock is right two times each day so yes I do live on a fantasy farm. My fantasy. I call it my 140 acres of Nirvana. (Thanks for the opportunity to gloat; I try to bust a pic out to you city folk once a year or so. ;) Hey AK I hear you've got some waterfront property, why not show us the view?

Thanks for answering the question.

I hold no membership in FUDR or any other organization that is interested in the upper delaware. I have in fact been critical of FUDR in the past for some of the criticisms dished out to Big Spinner and the DRF.

As far as the issue with channelizing is concerned,I happen to agree with them on filing the intent to sue since it at least gives fair notice to the party named in the suit. Now you may believe they should sue the DEC but if the DEC provided the permits to clear debris and the township decided they would channelize than the township is the entity to be sued in my view. Perhaps its all a bluff and they are not really planning to file suit. If thats the case I still think it is worth a shot.

PS
Nice Picture.
 
As far as the issue with channelizing is concerned,I happen to agree with them on filing the intent to sue since it at least gives fair notice to the party named in the suit. Now you may believe they should sue the DEC but if the DEC provided the permits to clear debris and the township decided they would channelize than the township is the entity to be sued in my view. Perhaps its all a bluff and they are not really planning to file suit. If thats the case I still think it is worth a shot.

Given the permit that I have quoted, there seems to be a lot of latitude in terms of gravel removal. Again, " clearing stream channels of gravel and boulders with limited removal of gravel bars" and "9. Gravel shall be removed by "skimming" the surface of the gravel bar to a depth no lower than one foot above the water level of the stream at the time of work. No gravel shall be removed from below the normal low water level." (emphasis added).
I've been told that many of the streams where the work was done were already dry. That is, the stone and gravel were already layered so high in the stream that the water flowed below them. I can see where going down to a "foot above the water level of the stream at the time of work" could be a lot of removed gravel.
Nobody(wink, wink) mentioned THAT did they? That in many of these streams there were no fish and the insect life was already "obliterated" in large part due to Mother Nature covering them over with tons of stone and gravel? Nobody (wink, wink) mentioned the fact that the work done to these streams actually opened up many of them so spawning trout could actually swim into them, either. But they have an ass to cover (and a case to make)and it probably slipped their minds to include those nuggets.

When was the "intent to sue" filed? Should we have a countdown to day sixty?

Nice Picture.

Thanks. It's a nice place to live.

Have a great day, all!
 
From: Bob
To: No one in Particular




Well, you know I need a steam shovel, mama
...to keep away the dead.

I need a dump truck mama,
to unload my head.

She brings me everything and more...
and just like I said,

...if I go down dyin',
she bound to put a blanket on my bed.
 
From: No one in Particular
To: William Wallace (friend of Bob)


Well, when the pipeline gets broken and I'm lost on the river bridge
I'm cracked up on the highway and on the water's edge
She comes down the thruway ready to sew me up with thread

Serotonin, thanks for this morning's poetry lesson.
Have a good one.
 
From: No one in Particular
To: William Wallace (friend of Bob)


Well, when the pipeline gets broken and I'm lost on the river bridge
I'm cracked up on the highway and on the water's edge
She comes down the thruway ready to sew me up with thread

Serotonin, thanks for this morning's poetry lesson.
Have a good one.

There was a young girl from Nantucket...........
 
We know now which pair that are on drugs.

Stick to getting drunk you fools.


Stick to getting drunk? If I were to do that, my posts would sound too similar to the drivel you subject us to, laddie. EPIPHANY: Maybe if you stopped slinging the Jameson’s back and did whatever Serotonin does, you might be able to catch fish like he does up on the Salmon River. Let us know how that works out for ya.

And if you’d like to put some money where your mouth is…er fingers are, I’ll bet I pass any drug test we can find. ;) Just another example of leaping before one looks, I say.

How’s the photo of that waterfront property coming? (Like the avatar?)

Ahh, I’m just foolin’ with ya AK. With the way you are responding to my posts, I can tell you’re growing fond of me. BUT don’t get any ideas; I’ve heard about some of your NJ politicians and with this whole Foley thing blowin’ up… well, let me just say, I only cast my fly rod ONE way.

And now, back to the matter at hand...
Anyone know when Babyblue is getting back? Jeepers we’re like twenty days away from the big day. We need some more insider information! :)
 
Well I know you're back Babyblue(hope you had a GREAT time)... You probably haven't posted because you're waiting for your secret informant to get back to you. But I thought I'd ask, any word yet?

Here's another good one to make you giggle while we wait... Mr. Findley writes about... well he writes this:

"We regret having to take the course of action we did - filing a Sixty Day Notice of Intent to sue. However, we would also point out that attempts to contact Town officials before sending the Letter, were not given the courtesy of a reply. Email sent to the Town, et al, pointing out the problems of channelizing, was apparently disregarded. "

Sam, (Mr. Rowe) at a recent meeting pointed out that indeed the e-mails were not replied to, but it was because the town's computers had been under water in the town hall.

There are certainly two sides to every story, true. BUT, is everyone starting to get a fuller sense of the bigger picture here?

Ask Questions!
 
Well I know you're back Babyblue(hope you had a GREAT time)... You probably haven't posted because you're waiting for your secret informant to get back to you. But I thought I'd ask, any word yet?

Here's another good one to make you giggle while we wait... Mr. Findley writes about... well he writes this:

"We regret having to take the course of action we did - filing a Sixty Day Notice of Intent to sue. However, we would also point out that attempts to contact Town officials before sending the Letter, were not given the courtesy of a reply. Email sent to the Town, et al, pointing out the problems of channelizing, was apparently disregarded. "

Sam, (Mr. Rowe) at a recent meeting pointed out that indeed the e-mails were not replied to, but it was because the town's computers had been under water in the town hall.

There are certainly two sides to every story, true. BUT, is everyone starting to get a fuller sense of the bigger picture here?

Ask Questions!
Future

Not getting the fuller picture. Would love to get your take on what the ultimate motive of the FUDR would be other than improving the fishery. Would also like to get your take on the proposed flood plain restortation plan they are pitching. Finally I would make the observation that you are starting to sound awfully partisan in your posts. I have no problem with you providing an alternative view but you imply some other agenda is in play so just spell it out for the rest of us. Thanks!!!
 
:D Yes, I'm back, more about that later.

John, you answered your own question by posting the details of the permit. If what was done wasn't "regrading of the stream bed" I'm at a loss as to how to describe it.

I am not a member of DRF, FUDR, or TU.

I think MACFLY has it correct in his/her latest post. Someone has an agenda.

Had the "Bat Signal" in the sky last night but the moon drowned it out.

Exotic location was N.Wildwood. Did 2 back to back trips offshore. Fishing was phenominal to say the least. 1 blue marlin, 1 white marlin, 2 swords up the #168 and over 50 tuna , 1 being a #238 Big Eye. Thought I died and went to off shore heaven! Then the bass fishing kick in with the blow. Weds. night we had fish to 34 ins. from a boat in the Cape May inlet. The rest came from the inlet jetty in the hight of the blow on Fri. Between the 4 of us we had around 100 fish to 30 ins. Incredible experience being on that jetty in 40+ mph. Need to get a wet suit! Fish from boat on the fly, from jetty on plugs.

I'm glad you missed me:D :D :D
 
Did any of you anti-chennelizing activists actually see pictures of the areas that are in question?
The streams were pretty much channelized from the water flowing through them. I think FUDR is ****ing in your ear and telling you its raining.
I bet everyone on this board $5 that nothing comes of the lawsuit.
First of all, the town of hancock did not channelize most of the streams, Lancaster construction is digging up cadosia creek right now, and the national guard had some bulldozers after the flood to.
Most of these streams are so badly damaged that the channelizing they are doing makes them look more like they did before the flood.
Alot of the areas i have looked at were so clogged up with gravel that the water level is a few feet above where it was prior to the flood.
So what do you do? DUH, you dig the gravel up.

What the hell are you supposed to do with a stream that runs through the middle of your town? Wait for some 5 year study on spawning trout and flood control?
No, you dig it out a little deeper and put some large rocks on the banks.

This week i have seen at least a half dozen work sites where they had excavators digging out stream beds and trucking the gravel away to other sites.
I dont think anyone really gives a shit if FUDR wants to sue or not.
 
OK, remember that I have not taken a stance on this battle since it began. The only horse I have in thia race is the fish and the rivers. I will post the entire e-mail here for you to read unedited.

-much of what rowe wrote is bullshit. you have to remember, rowe could go to jail for what he has done. he could also lose his job in hancock. he knows he did the wrong thing. privately, rowe told one of our board members that he knows he went too far. he also told the same board member that he intentionally did not reply to craig's calls because the town didn't want a group of outsiders telling them what to do. i didn't hear rowe say any of these things, but one of our members shared this with the board. some of the locals in hancock are beginning to doubt his decisions. he is lying to cover his own ass.

-it should also be noted that even if rowe was completely truthful in his letter, if fudr handeled everything wrong(i know we didn't), rowe still ordered the creeks to be `channelized. he broke the law and created potentially dangerous situations for the people who live below the the creeks. channelizing creeks is destructive to hte enviroment and to the people who live near them. it is against the law and it surpassded rowe's legal abilities in the permits. rowe made a bad situation worse. i have no idea why people on the jersey bulletin board (except for future fanatic...he is friends with serio and just wants to make fudr look bad) would choose to cruicify a group of concerned anglers, most of whom are fighting for the river with their own money and time. i have spent so much of my own money and my time driving around taking pictures (when gas was $3 a gallon), writing letters, and paying for countless long distance bills. what would fudr have to benefit by this lawsuit other than getting the creeks fixed? we will get no money from it personally, even if we win.

-not a single fudr member or board member has resigned because of this controversy. that was a lie.

-fudr's board voted unanimously to go forward with the suit to get the tribs fixed. there was some debate-no one wants to sue the town-but fudr will go forward because we believe it's the only wat to fix the tribs that were illegally channelized.

-it's true, some streams were buried with grevelthat needed to be removed. but grevel was also mined from some streams, and the river, for no other reason than the town wanted the free material to work on their roads.

-rowe asked delaware county for a stream repair expert. they didn't have one available. so he ordered the channelization? bullshit. rowe announced in the walton reporter newspaper that he wasn't happy with the dec(in his recent letter he claims to like the dec). he said they played by the rules after the last two floods. rowe made it known, in the paper, within a week of the flood that he was going to fix the streams as he saw fit. ie channelize. why didn't he contact state, federal, or private agencies for stream repais assistance? because he wanted to channelize from the beginning and that's what he did.

-humphries brook (an important spawning trib that flows along the lordville road) has been permanently distroyed. it has been "iron plated" (lined with rocks that make it look like a concrete ditch) and filled with gravel by rowe's highway department. large portions of the creek now flow undrground. rowe did not have the authority to this. in fact, he broke the law by doing so.

-the "damn the torpedoes" letter from craig findley that appeared in the hancock hearld seems to have created some of the problems between fudr and hancock. this letter was sent out to fudr's e-mail list a week before the paper printed it. it was not a letter to the editor as it was portrayed. it should have not gone to hancock's paper, but it did. it was sent after hancock failed to reply to craig's e-mails and phone calls. the fact that the paper held it before publishing it is part of the problem. when the paper finally publishrd it, craig and rowe had already agreed to meet. the poor timing of the letter ended that possibilty.

-we all agree that several stream mouths were clogged before the june flood. why didn't rowe and the town try harder to open these creeks after the first two floods?

-fudr did not plan to buy anyone's land or to force them out with eminent domain in our tributary restoration plan. we only wanted to fix portions of the creeks (and repair their flood plains) where it could be done without taking peoples property. flooding could be mitigated if just the floodplains of the creeks that flow through the woods were repaired. rowe lied about this in his letter.

-fudr planned to raise funds to pay for the floodplain restoration. we did not expect the town to pay any of it. that was another lie to scare the people of hancock into fighting against fudr.

-rowe claims he could not recieve e-mails after the flood. the town moved their office to the school. there are computers there...he could have checked his e-mail. he may also have a computer at home that he could have used to check his e-mail.

-craig made several phone calls to rowe after the flood. rowe returned the first one (proving that he was getting phone messages) but he didn't answer the others. i think this goes back to rowe not wanting outsiders telling him what to do.

-you have toy remember, too, fudr doesn't owe hancock anything. our obligation is to the river, and to the river alone. we didn't have to try to work with hancock, but we did. hancock's leadership chose it's path, anbd by doing so, they forced us to choose ours.

Like I said, I'm just the messenger here. Do not shoot me.:guns:
 
-i have no idea why people on the jersey bulletin board (except for future fanatic...he is friends with serio and just wants to make fudr look bad) would choose to cruicify a group of concerned anglers...

-much of what rowe wrote is bullshit. you have to remember, rowe could go to jail for what he has done. he could also lose his job in hancock.

some of the locals in hancock are beginning to doubt his decisions. he is lying to cover his own ass.

-it's true, some streams were buried with grevelthat needed to be removed. but grevel was also mined from some streams, and the river, for no other reason than the town wanted the free material to work on their roads.

-fudr planned to raise funds to pay for the floodplain restoration. we did not expect the town to pay any of it. that was another lie to scare the people of hancock into fighting against fudr.


So Babyblue,
Do you believe all of this?
Do you believe that he(who shall remain nameless) is being truthful? Or that he knows this all to be true?

Let me just speak to one lie that is included here. "...future fanatic...he is friends with serio and just wants to make fudr look bad..." I am no "friend" of Jim Serio. I met the man TWICE. Once, at a "Day on the Delaware" where I spoke to him about knotweed. The other time was when a few of us from this board helped clean up some garbage. On that day, my only words to him were to decline his kind offer to me of a DRF hat. I would bet fifty bucks, that if I saw him on the river (and did not have a bandana on my head) he wouldn't have a CLUE as to who I was. Your "source" told you a LIE. I bet he and others can't understand why anyone would "choose to cruicify a group of concerned anglers..."

Crucify... how ironic and self-righteous. My take has been that FUDR was initially a group of concerned business owners that attracted a fair share of concerned anglers with their dire predictions and cast of luminaries (and who wouldn't want to be associated with some of flyfishing's greats(well besides me..))

As to my trying to make FUDR look bad, yeah I do try to point out hypocrisy and bs, but, it rubs me the wrong way that they try to pass themselves off as only caring about the fishery when that is not the ENTIRE story. Why do they care about the fishery? For a large portion of the board and some of it's members, protecting the fishery means protecting their businesses. Enhancing the fishery, means enhancing their businesses. They are more of a lobby for their businesses than an "environmental" group. But of course you don't get a lot of members to write letters for and give donations to lobby groups, but to save the fishies... the good hearted angler WILL step up to do the right thing. Anyway...

Mr. Rowe could go to jail? Has he been arrested? Has the DEC started investigating, levied any fines, or even given a hint that they might? Has Senator Bonacic opened an inquiry? Do you really think he is going to jail? Rowe's response was to keep himself out of the slammer? Why would he believe that was going to happen. DRAMA

"Some of the locals in hancock are beginning to doubt his decisions." Is he counting the FUDR members who live in Hancock? I don't live there, but the four people I talked with who do, are a mixture of ****ed off and amused by FUDR's actions. Don't underestimate their combined resolve to not be pushed around by "outsiders". I think FUDR may have guaranteed Rowe a job until he retires. OVERSTATMENT

The town wanted free material for their roads. You've got to be kidding me. MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of dollars worth of damage. I'm sure the state and federal government is helping pay for it, and Rowe is going to save about 5 bucks a ton on fill by "stealing" it from streams that need to have it removed anyway. PRICELESS


NOW, let's talk about this one...

-fudr planned to raise funds to pay for the floodplain restoration. we did not expect the town to pay any of it. that was another lie to scare the people of hancock into fighting against fudr. HE DOES NOT NEED TO GIVE THE PEOPLE MORE AMMO

On FUDR's website, they said it would be paid for with both private and public "contributions" What public contributions were they hoping for? They couldn't possibly mean that the public pay for this. Since their inception, Fudr members have criticized the use of government money on studies. They must mean something else, yes? HIPPOCRITICAL MONEY GRAB

And just because it is kinda humorous, in FUDR's stream restoration plan they include this as a benefit of the restoration:

"One of the immediate economic benefits that come from excavating an abnormally high floodplain is the generation of high-quality, nutrient-rich topsoil. This topsoil salvaged from a stream corridor/floodplain restoration site can be readily recycled back into farming practices, which basically restores the soil to its origins. Developers also provide a ready outlet for high-quality topsoil." MR. ROWE SHOULDA THOUGHT ABOUT STEALING TOPSOIL ...and ... DEVELOPERS... Yaaay!
 
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