Drift boat etiquette

[MACFLY]

Ha shows how much you know. My wife shaved her beard last year...actually it was me mudbug. I was doing my best impression of sen Bernie sanders as a guide...you know where folks like yourself get out of the way and let others catch the trout you found first. I mean it's only fair. Next time just hook the fish and hand the rod to my clients you boob.

PS beetle let's not compare wives now ok. I heard your wife got the part of jabba the hut becuse she didn't need to wear any make up

i float the west in a stinktoon that I got from dluver.

He and I friggin blitzed the west in our stinktoons, crashing into wade fishermen like cdun.

Seriously - you should have seen us bouncing off wade fishers like pinballs at the 191 bridge.

now he is selling out the "man" with the beard and glasses who guides the west...

Macs wife.

 

[tomfly]

Bumping this up because I've got a new story to tell that falls in this category.

- - -

So, here's a chain of events that occurred last weekend that left me confused. Maybe somebody here can enlighten me.

I put in at Balls Eddy on the WB with my cousin and his wife. This enormous behemoth of a guide, with two weenies in his boat, puts in maybe 15 minutes before we do, and looks to be sitting river right, above the first riff, gearing up and giving his clients the usual pre-game pep talk.

I make for the left side, where the channel is, to pass him and start downriver. We were planning to set a fast pace, chuck streamers at the banks, maybe stop once or twice if we found risers, and make the Sheehawken ramp in two hours or so. I had no intention of fishing the water right below him, and didn't want to be held up waiting for him.

Just before I reach him, he sees me, pulls anchor, and floats down through the riff in front of me and anchors directly at the top of the run. It's too late for me to even give him as much space as I would want, but I just pass the dude on his left and drift past the whole pool with minimal splashing - common courtesy - before we start throwing streamers again in the tail-out, maybe 100 yards away from his boat.

A mile or two downriver we find some noses poking up in the shade under some big pines and switch to tandem dry fly rigs with duns, and a spinner or emerger on the dropper, covering the bases. We also have a couple of beers and shoot the shit for a bit, waiting to see if more fish come up.

Meanwhile, this guy catches up with us, and anchors his boat right in front of us (maybe 20 yards away), but toward the center of the river. We are set up now, and start floating along the bank, where the risers are, and AGAIN he pulls anchor and floats right in front of us. This time his clients are casting directly in front of our boat, to spots that are well within casting range for us.

So I think, "this guy's fucking weird", but I'm super polite anyway, and I say (didn't have to shout as the dude is basically 20 feet from me now):

"Hey you want us to bounce downriver a bit or hang back? We're good either way."

Nice, right? Like, more than gentlemanly. Beyond what's called for.

He doesn't respond. This big Boo Radley looking motherfucker just hunches his shoulders and glowers off in the distance, clearly enraged for some reason. His clients are now looking at me kind of apologetically, like, "sorry bro, we booked a trip with this sociopath because he was the cheapest ride on the river"

I don't like being ignored. But whatever, I really don't care one way or another since we're planning on moving downriver pretty quick anyway, and not dead set on staking out territory in one pool or another.

So I say, "look, no disrespect - just trying to stay out of your way." Again, being more deferential than the guy really deserved. Dude just stares at me with hatred.

Me, to his clients, "have a great trip guys. Good luck with that one."

And with that, I'm out. We found more risers downriver and had a good time and didn't see the guy again.

So, here's my question. Was this guy just one of the socially and mentally deficient guides that I've heard can be found on the system, but have never encountered personally?

Or did I break some kind of unspoken rule that everybody but me on the WB knows?

I never float the WB, in part because it's too freaking crowded and I don't want to have to coordinate my floating and fishing with a bunch of grumpy dudes who are not good at playing with others (probably why they love fly fishing in the first place.) So it's at least conceivable that there's some rule here that I don't know.

MB some people are just hard to read. I also find those personality types to be unpredictable in nature. That is why it is hard to speculate what he was thinking or doing.
Realize this; he knows this that you were the class act and the stand up guy. He most likely has some weak justification for his behavior to pacify his lack of ethics for what he did. Everyone that is like him has that same character defect. We have all seen our share of that guy, they all have that same trait. I have come to the conclusion from observation. A true student of fly fishing finds that nirvana when they are out on the river. If your having a good day or a bad day is irrelevant. It is that you are in the moment and when that moment is gone it is gone forever. A true fly fisherman understands that and knows to live in that moment. That is why we do what we do. Some guys just don’t get that spiritual aspect of it.

 

[FIN-ITE 34]

Everyone that is like him has that same character defect. We have all seen our share of that guy, they all have that same trait.

It's a genetic defect called "the Defiant Eye".

 

[WBDluver]

Maybe we encountered the True Lorax of the Delaware?

 

[dcabarle]

Yeah... There are guys out (and they are DOUCHE BAGS and they know who they are) there who just feel that since they're making their living on the river and paying the man to make that living, they are more entitled than you. So after you worked your 5 day work week at a desk dreaming of fishing on the weekend, they're busting their assess in nice clean fresh air on a stream, listening to the birds chirp and the sound of the river all while trying to get clients who paid $400.00 to catch a trout and of course get the photo op.

Now I'm not saying it's right but I guess I get it. The problem is, they are no more entitled to the same river as you are but they have it in their minds that YOU are invading their space and getting in their way just ensures that $400.00 will not work in that area. Every second that goes by, that 20% tip runs opposite of a NYC taxi meter. When they catch a fish, the meter goes back up slightly, pending on the size of the fish.

 

[CTobias]

Yeah... There are guys out (and they are DOUCHE BAGS and they know who they are) there who just feel that since they're making their living on the river and paying the man to make that living, they are more entitled than you. So after you worked your 5 day work week at a desk dreaming of fishing on the weekend, they're busting their assess in nice clean fresh air on a stream, listening to the birds chirp and the sound of the river all while trying to get clients who paid $400.00 to catch a trout and of course get the photo op.

Now I'm not saying it's right but I guess I get it. The problem is, they are no more entitled to the same river as you are but they have it in their minds that YOU are invading their space and getting in their way just ensures that $400.00 will not work in that area. Every second that goes by, that 20% tip runs opposite of a NYC taxi meter. When they catch a fish, the meter goes back up slightly, pending on the size of the fish.

$400 for a full day float?! You couldn't even get a half day trip out here for that.

 

[dcabarle]

$400 for a full day float?! You couldn't even get a half day trip out here for that.

I rarely have an issue with a guide. The majority of them are good people and very courteous. I know of 3-4 out of the how many? That just need to go.

 

[WBDluver]

On the flip side, I was below Hale Eddy wading and only about 20 feet off the bank when TR came down. I was tying on a new tippet and told him to go in front of me. He did not know i was on this board and does not know me. He still went behind me. Now thats etiquette.

 

[Future Fanatic]

On the flip side, I was below Hale Eddy wading and only about 20 feet off the bank when TR came down. I was tying on a new tippet and told him to go in front of me. He did not know i was on this board and does not know me. He still went behind me. Now thats etiquette.

Maybe He just wanted to check out your ass.

 

[WBDluver]

Maybe He just wanted to check out your ass.

Your probably right, i never thought of that. I forgot how my Simms waders accentuate my Mr Universe like body.

 

[FIN-ITE 34]

Your probably right, i never thought of that. I forgot how my Simms waders accentuate my Mr Universe like body.

More like Kim Kardashian.

 

[MACFLY]

Maybe He just wanted to check out your ass.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

 

[NJFred]

Bumping this up because I've got a new story to tell that falls in this category.

- - -

So, here's a chain of events that occurred last weekend that left me confused. Maybe somebody here can enlighten me.

I put in at Balls Eddy on the WB with my cousin and his wife. This enormous behemoth of a guide, with two weenies in his boat, puts in maybe 15 minutes before we do, and looks to be sitting river right, above the first riff, gearing up and giving his clients the usual pre-game pep talk.

I make for the left side, where the channel is, to pass him and start downriver. We were planning to set a fast pace, chuck streamers at the banks, maybe stop once or twice if we found risers, and make the Sheehawken ramp in two hours or so. I had no intention of fishing the water right below him, and didn't want to be held up waiting for him.

Just before I reach him, he sees me, pulls anchor, and floats down through the riff in front of me and anchors directly at the top of the run. It's too late for me to even give him as much space as I would want, but I just pass the dude on his left and drift past the whole pool with minimal splashing - common courtesy - before we start throwing streamers again in the tail-out, maybe 100 yards away from his boat.

A mile or two downriver we find some noses poking up in the shade under some big pines and switch to tandem dry fly rigs with duns, and a spinner or emerger on the dropper, covering the bases. We also have a couple of beers and shoot the shit for a bit, waiting to see if more fish come up.

Meanwhile, this guy catches up with us, and anchors his boat right in front of us (maybe 20 yards away), but toward the center of the river. We are set up now, and start floating along the bank, where the risers are, and AGAIN he pulls anchor and floats right in front of us. This time his clients are casting directly in front of our boat, to spots that are well within casting range for us.

So I think, "this guy's fucking weird", but I'm super polite anyway, and I say (didn't have to shout as the dude is basically 20 feet from me now):

"Hey you want us to bounce downriver a bit or hang back? We're good either way."

Nice, right? Like, more than gentlemanly. Beyond what's called for.

He doesn't respond. This big Boo Radley looking motherfucker just hunches his shoulders and glowers off in the distance, clearly enraged for some reason. His clients are now looking at me kind of apologetically, like, "sorry bro, we booked a trip with this sociopath because he was the cheapest ride on the river"

I don't like being ignored. But whatever, I really don't care one way or another since we're planning on moving downriver pretty quick anyway, and not dead set on staking out territory in one pool or another.

So I say, "look, no disrespect - just trying to stay out of your way." Again, being more deferential than the guy really deserved. Dude just stares at me with hatred.

Me, to his clients, "have a great trip guys. Good luck with that one."

And with that, I'm out. We found more risers downriver and had a good time and didn't see the guy again.

So, here's my question. Was this guy just one of the socially and mentally deficient guides that I've heard can be found on the system, but have never encountered personally?

Or did I break some kind of unspoken rule that everybody but me on the WB knows?

I never float the WB, in part because it's too freaking crowded and I don't want to have to coordinate my floating and fishing with a bunch of grumpy dudes who are not good at playing with others (probably why they love fly fishing in the first place.) So it's at least conceivable that there's some rule here that I don't know.

I do believe I know who you are talking about. The behavior fits him to a T. He's well known as a problem up there. You did nothing wrong. Just better to put some distance between yourself and this guy.

 

[jchtrout1]

Originally Posted by mudbug201
Bumping this up because I've got a new story to tell that falls in this category.

- - -

So, here's a chain of events that occurred last weekend that left me confused. Maybe somebody here can enlighten me.

I put in at Balls Eddy on the WB with my cousin and his wife. This enormous behemoth of a guide, with two weenies in his boat, puts in maybe 15 minutes before we do, and looks to be sitting river right, above the first riff, gearing up and giving his clients the usual pre-game pep talk.

I make for the left side, where the channel is, to pass him and start downriver. We were planning to set a fast pace, chuck streamers at the banks, maybe stop once or twice if we found risers, and make the Sheehawken ramp in two hours or so. I had no intention of fishing the water right below him, and didn't want to be held up waiting for him.

Just before I reach him, he sees me, pulls anchor, and floats down through the riff in front of me and anchors directly at the top of the run. It's too late for me to even give him as much space as I would want, but I just pass the dude on his left and drift past the whole pool with minimal splashing - common courtesy - before we start throwing streamers again in the tail-out, maybe 100 yards away from his boat.

A mile or two downriver we find some noses poking up in the shade under some big pines and switch to tandem dry fly rigs with duns, and a spinner or emerger on the dropper, covering the bases. We also have a couple of beers and shoot the shit for a bit, waiting to see if more fish come up.

Meanwhile, this guy catches up with us, and anchors his boat right in front of us (maybe 20 yards away), but toward the center of the river. We are set up now, and start floating along the bank, where the risers are, and AGAIN he pulls anchor and floats right in front of us. This time his clients are casting directly in front of our boat, to spots that are well within casting range for us.

So I think, "this guy's fucking weird", but I'm super polite anyway, and I say (didn't have to shout as the dude is basically 20 feet from me now):

"Hey you want us to bounce downriver a bit or hang back? We're good either way."

Nice, right? Like, more than gentlemanly. Beyond what's called for.

He doesn't respond. This big Boo Radley looking motherfucker just hunches his shoulders and glowers off in the distance, clearly enraged for some reason. His clients are now looking at me kind of apologetically, like, "sorry bro, we booked a trip with this sociopath because he was the cheapest ride on the river"

I don't like being ignored. But whatever, I really don't care one way or another since we're planning on moving downriver pretty quick anyway, and not dead set on staking out territory in one pool or another.

So I say, "look, no disrespect - just trying to stay out of your way." Again, being more deferential than the guy really deserved. Dude just stares at me with hatred.

Me, to his clients, "have a great trip guys. Good luck with that one."

And with that, I'm out. We found more risers downriver and had a good time and didn't see the guy again.

So, here's my question. Was this guy just one of the socially and mentally deficient guides that I've heard can be found on the system, but have never encountered personally?

Or did I break some kind of unspoken rule that everybody but me on the WB knows?

I never float the WB, in part because it's too freaking crowded and I don't want to have to coordinate my floating and fishing with a bunch of grumpy dudes who are not good at playing with others (probably why they love fly fishing in the first place.) So it's at least conceivable that there's some rule here that I don't know.

OK, How do you know he was a guide ? Did he have NPS Arrowheads and if so, did you get the number ? There are about 1/2 dozen new guides on the system this year and they have Salmon River ettiquette. Nothing that a good shout out or rock wont handle. Definitely some real ases on the river this year, but before asuming it was a guide, the boat has to have the Arrowheads and PA launch permit on the boat.The guides who have been up here for a while will usually do as Tony did by going behind as long as you've left room for him. If the river is 100' wide and your cast is 35', we may go on the other side of the river. Believe me, if I'm coming down on some fisherman, I'm watching what you are doing fro a couple hundred feet upriver, what side you are casting to, fish working ? length of your cast, etc. I can think of one guide that fits the profile of the guy you described, but he usually doesnt fish that section of river.
It also works two ways. Guys casting to the left until you are right on them and they spin around and cast to the right. Guys standing in 6 inches of water then bitching because you didnt go behind them. I'll go behind everone I can but I draw the line on portaging my boat. Guys on lawn chairs watching water see a boat and they literally run on top of the water to reserve their spot on the opposite side of the river.
I have the greatest picture, I probably posted here from a couple years ago. About 30-35 fisherman fishing the run below WBA and above the gamelands. One guy had 2 little kids, one on his shoulders and the other holding his hand up to his chest, both about 10 years old.. At that time, these creightons were parking on the railroad tracks then trespassing to get to the river and one of them had the balls to ask if that was ok since eveyone was doing it. I posted that unless you had wings,or walked up from the gamelands which was doubtful as they had lawn chairs and coolers, then yea, they were trespassing. The guy with the kids lost his grip on the one that was walking, holding his hand and as he went to grab him, dumped his other son off his shoulders into the water and neither had lifejackets on.
Long story, but by and by, I have seen more courteous guides on this system than a lot of waders. Not meant as a blanket statement but a lot of waders think because we have a boat then the entire river is accessible. If you have ever rowed a driftboat, then you know that isnt exactly true.
Now if you want to appreciate the Delaware System guides, go up to the Salmon and see the shit they do, pulling plugs and taking their sweet time right in front of you, chumming with eggs, all sorts of bullshit. I stopped guiding up there around 8 years ago. Anyway, a long post and I apologize for its length. What happened to you was wrong. I wouldnt have been as diplomatic, but seriously, I can think of one guide who fits that bill so perhaps it wasnt a guide. If they have Arrowheads and act like an asshole, take the number down, look it up on the Park Service website and report it to them. They will hear about it. All licensed park guides are listed on the website but if they are only floating from Balls to She, then that doesnt fall within the park, but they still need the Pa. launch permit if they are using Pa. facilities.

 

[jchtrout1]

I do believe I know who you are talking about. The behavior fits him to a T. He's well known as a problem up there. You did nothing wrong. Just better to put some distance between yourself and this guy.

Not doubting at all your experience, but are you sure it was a guide ? Guides on that section of the river have to display a Pa. Guide sticker along with a Pa. launch permit and possess a NYS guides license. From junction pool down, they need all of the above plus NPS Arrowheads which does have a number on it. Write down the number, go to their website and find out who it was.

This year, there are about a half dozen new guides on the NPS roster plus the ones that dont bother to get legal or only have a NY or Pa license, both are needed on border water. Anyway, some of these new guys act like they are up on the Salmon river which has some of the most disrespectful guides on the planet, especially the plug pullers and chummers.
Your description does fit one guide up there but he rarely fishes that section and he wouldnt low hole you, may pull anchor though.
Like I said, use the Arrowhead numbers and ID them, pull their covers and report them if need be.
It does work both ways though. I had a guy standing in a foot of water. I offered to go behind him if he would step up a bit and I got the punk stare. So I jumped out of the boat and walked it behind him. He had the balls to say to me if I would hurry up as I was interfering with his backcast. OK, sorry I said as I dragged the boat back upstream, jumped in and rowed down right over his water in front of him.
Bottom line is communication is the key for boaters and waders.

 

[mudbug201]

Not doubting at all your experience, but are you sure it was a guide ?

Yeah, definitely sure about that.

Your description does fit one guide up there but he rarely fishes that section and he wouldnt low hole you, may pull anchor though.

The impression I got was not that he was hell-bent on low holing me - more that he didn't know the water, was maybe pulling some shenanigans to try to stake out what he thought were good lies, and had a weird idea of how much space boats should give each other.

The silent treatment was probably because he thought I showed him up in front of his clients or something by kind of pointing out that we were crowding each other (well, more that he was crowding me.) The second time he pulled anchor when I was passing, he had his clients casting dries 30 feet in front of my boat - a good way to insure neither of us hooked anything.

Anyway, nothing worth reporting or anything. If he's a newbie I guess he'll figure it out. But I agree with your point about communication and the way he reacted, pouting like a 3 year old and giving me the stink eye, was ridiculous.

If he were my kid I would have given him a time out.

I have nothing generally against guides, even though I don't really hire them, except one guy up there from time to time - mainly because he's a nice guy and I want to support his business.

But I do think that Tomfly and DC are onto something. For most of us this is a hobby rather than an occupation. For some of us it's both a hobby with spiritual overtones - almost a religion. (relax DC not the jesus-y kind)

Guides can inject a different dynamic. Their clients' success at this hobby directly affects their bottom line. So there's a seriousness there, as well as an arrogance or entitlement at times, that is unfortunate for everybody involved. It's fishing. It's supposed to be fun. The saving grace is that lots of guides are good with people - it's a service industry first and foremost - so they make up for it by being friendly and courteous.

I have heard it's different on the Salmon River and that might be the story here - crowding the only other boat on the river and then being a goon when he calls you out on it - that's definitely not the norm for guides I've met on the WB.

It does work both ways though..

Yeah as a frequent rower I know that to be true. I always bust my ass to go behind wade fishermen and keep from putting their fish down. Sometimes they say thank you, as they should. Other times they're the ones who need a time out. It gets old, which is why I stick to less traveled waters when I can.

 

[jchtrout1]

Yeah, definitely sure about that.



The impression I got was not that he was hell-bent on low holing me - more that he didn't know the water, was maybe pulling some shenanigans to try to stake out what he thought were good lies, and had a weird idea of how much space boats should give each other.

The silent treatment was probably because he thought I showed him up in front of his clients or something by kind of pointing out that we were crowding each other (well, more that he was crowding me.) The second time he pulled anchor when I was passing, he had his clients casting dries 30 feet in front of my boat - a good way to insure neither of us hooked anything.

Anyway, nothing worth reporting or anything. If he's a newbie I guess he'll figure it out. But I agree with your point about communication and the way he reacted, pouting like a 3 year old and giving me the stink eye, was ridiculous.

If he were my kid I would have given him a time out.

I have nothing generally against guides, even though I don't really hire them, except one guy up there from time to time - mainly because he's a nice guy and I want to support his business.

But I do think that Tomfly and DC are onto something. For most of us this is a hobby rather than an occupation. For some of us it's both a hobby with spiritual overtones - almost a religion. (relax DC not the jesus-y kind)

Guides can inject a different dynamic. Their clients' success at this hobby directly affects their bottom line. So there's a seriousness there, as well as an arrogance or entitlement at times, that is unfortunate for everybody involved. It's fishing. It's supposed to be fun. The saving grace is that lots of guides are good with people - it's a service industry first and foremost - so they make up for it by being friendly and courteous.

I have heard it's different on the Salmon River and that might be the story here - crowding the only other boat on the river and then being a goon when he calls you out on it - that's definitely not the norm for guides I've met on the WB.



Yeah as a frequent rower I know that to be true. I always bust my ass to go behind wade fishermen and keep from putting their fish down. Sometimes they say thank you, as they should. Other times they're the ones who need a time out. It gets old, which is why I stick to less traveled waters when I can.

Well said !

 

[flyman23]

I'm sure most guides keep this in mind, however, for the one you encountered and the other few bad apples, they should realize that anyone they meet on the river is a potential client.