Wolves Are Cool

[Trout Nazi]

This is why wolves are cool, unless your a llama farmer or goat herder.

This Will Shatter Your View of Apex Predators: How Wolves Change Rivers – News Watch

 

[sunsignarcher]

Naaaah, smells like propaganda BS to me.

Fuck wolves.

 

[lightenup]

One odd fact.....the predatory bird population in Yellowstone is dropping because of the diminished cutthroat population. ..so that one fact in the video is bull.....nice video and idea though..I would like to see before and after data and pictures to support the hypothesis...

 

[Trout Nazi]

One odd fact.....the predatory bird population in Yellowstone is dropping because of the diminished cutthroat population. ..so that one fact in the video is bull.....nice video and idea though..I would like to see before and after data and pictures to support the hypothesis...

I find it hard to believe that the sole reason predatory birds are declining is because of the diminished cuttthroat population. There are other trout besides cutthroat, and predatory birds don't dine exclusively on trout (unless they belong to NEFF and are trout snobs).

 

[lightenup]

I find it hard to believe that the sole reason predatory birds are declining is because of the diminished cuttthroat population. There are other trout besides cutthroat, and predatory birds don't dine exclusively on trout (unless they belong to NEFF and are trout snobs).

Maybe it iz just around the Yellowstone river and lake......The park is a big place......

 

[sunsignarcher]

The story told in this video is nothing new. A great example here in NJ is Lord Stirling Park and The Great Swamp. Two large tracts of land adjacent to one another both plagued with an over population of deer and all of the habitat and ecosystem destruction that goes along with it.

In the 70's The Great Swamp began a controversial deer hunt to thin the heard and quickly became a model for proper management, habitat restoration and incredible biodiversity. Lord Stirling on the other hand remained a waste land for decades while the deer were protected to the detriment of all other life on the property.

The Star Ledger had a great write up on the two properties many years ago doing a side by side comparison with photos to show the extreme contrast between a healthy, vibrant, teaming with life Great Swamp and the dead zone that was Lord Stirling. Lord Stirling now employs sharp shooters to control the deer.

This video takes something that had not only been done many times over but also played a role in the wolves reintroduction and makes it sound like a brand new phenomenon.

The apex predator is man, we employ sharp shooters in Lord Stirling and the wolf in Yellowstone.

Personally I prefer the hands on approach taken in the Great Swamp where we pretend to still be part of nature and our environment rather than observers too enlightened to get our hands dirty.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

This video takes something that had not only been done many times over but also played a role in the wolves reintroduction and makes it sound like a brand new phenomenon.

The only thing you could say was "brand new" was the fact that reintroduction of an extirpated species (wolves) into Yellowstone made that a fully intact ecosystem where the predator/prey ratios are now moving into balance with each other. We've eliminated so many predators and some of the prey animals throughout especially the lower 48 that we have almost no other (or none at all) intact ecosystems. Great Swamp lacks wolves, for example, and they once played a role as did mountain lions, both long gone from NJ.

 

[Agust]

Anecdotally, I fished the Lamar valley in 1995. The first year the wolves were released. Never saw them, but the place was overrun with coyote and elk, the Lamar itself is a volatile system so the river was very wide and the pools fairly scarce. I also fished it twice in the last 4 years, there are more buffalo, fewer elk and the river where I fished it (Between Soda Butte and Cache) has changed dramatically. Its still wide, but there are noticeably more pools, though less bigger pools. There are also lots more trees on the valley floor, though most are still in the sapling size. I still have not seen a wolf, but I seemed to get caught in traffic jams more often where folks with cameras with long lenses are running around.

I think reintroducing the wolves was a good idea, and is proving to be a success. As to the diminished Osprey because of the drop in cutthroat, that may be the case in the Hayden Valley because of Yellowstone Lake, but in the Lamar I'm still them (there were a couple nests in the canyon visible from the road, saw chicks in one of them with binoculars). Also saw a golden and bald eagles this past trip, the golden we saw kill a rabbit along the hill where Soda Butte comes into the Lamar.

Bear numbers being up makes sense, I've seen grizzly the last three trips and when we hiked into Pebble their tracks were everywhere.

 

[WBDluver]

The video was such a crock of crap. Talk to anyone that LIVES in Wyoming and Montanna and they will tell you that the wovles are decimating the population of elk and deer not balancing it. How can you balance a population when you introduce and animal that breeds and has litters of more wolves and the Wolves have no predators? All those mouths have to be fed and how do you think they do it? So as their population grows unchecked they will simply kill and eat more and more, sheep, cattle, elk deer etc etc.

 

[Thursthouse]

The video was such a crock of crap. Talk to anyone that LIVES in Wyoming and Montanna and they will tell you that the wovles are decimating the population of elk and deer not balancing it. How can you balance a population when you introduce and animal that breeds and has litters of more wolves and the Wolves have no predators? All those mouths have to be fed and how do you think they do it? So as their population grows unchecked they will simply kill and eat more and more, sheep, cattle, elk deer etc etc.

Agreed in terms of people that live out west. This is the same NIMBY that was discussed in another thread. Packs of 30 to 40 wolves are being seen now, running unchecked, threatening livestock and unarmed/off guard humans. Yea it's great that these animals are being introduced and are thriving...As long as they don't do it around my family/livelihood..bs

 

[Rusty Spinner]

The video was such a crock of crap. Talk to anyone that LIVES in Wyoming and Montanna and they will tell you that the wovles are decimating the population of elk and deer not balancing it. How can you balance a population when you introduce and animal that breeds and has litters of more wolves and the Wolves have no predators? All those mouths have to be fed and how do you think they do it? So as their population grows unchecked they will simply kill and eat more and more, sheep, cattle, elk deer etc etc.

Biology teaches us that predators can only come into equilibrium with their prey and that continues to happen in Yellowstone. Wolves cannot be the first animal other than man capable of wiping out entire food sources. As prey comes into balance with the wolves, the wolves' survival rates will drop accordingly. But we're not there yet. Also, there have been wolf hunts although court actions have stopped those at least once and there have been rancher depredation permits to deal with troublesome wolves as well as funds set up to compensate ranchers that lose livestock.

We are slowly starting to see eastern hunters show serious concern about Eastern coyotes and their predation on deer and other game animals like turkey poults. Our coyotes bred with wolves and are larger than their Western counterparts and they have filled the void left when man eradicated our area of wolves and mountain lions long ago. Simply because coyotes don't attack healthy adult humans, we don't fear them in quite the way we fear wolves out West in and around Yellowstone.

 

[Thursthouse]

Biology teaches us that predators can only come into equilibrium with their prey and that continues to happen in Yellowstone. Wolves cannot be the first animal other than man capable of wiping out entire food sources. As prey comes into balance with the wolves, the wolves' survival rates will drop accordingly. But we're not there yet. Also, there have been wolf hunts although court actions have stopped those at least once and there have been rancher depredation permits to deal with troublesome wolves as well as funds set up to compensate ranchers that lose livestock.

We are slowly starting to see eastern hunters show serious concern about Eastern coyotes and their predation on deer and other game animals like turkey poults. Our coyotes bred with wolves and are larger than their Western counterparts and they have filled the void left when man eradicated our area of wolves and mountain lions long ago. Simply because coyotes don't attack healthy adult humans, we don't fear them in quite the way we fear wolves out West in and around Yellowstone.

Unrelated to the original post - but it's said the area we turkey hunt in upstate NY, that the turkeys do not call anymore (although i did hear one once) and the locals claim that they do not call due to the coyotes desimating their populations. Myth or adaptation, I thought it was pretty cool from a natures perspective, but frustrating from a hunters perspective.

 

[Trout Nazi]

The video was such a crock of crap. Talk to anyone that LIVES in Wyoming and Montanna and they will tell you that the wovles are decimating the population of elk and deer not balancing it. How can you balance a population when you introduce and animal that breeds and has litters of more wolves and the Wolves have no predators? All those mouths have to be fed and how do you think they do it? So as their population grows unchecked they will simply kill and eat more and more, sheep, cattle, elk deer etc etc.

Did you ever think that the elk and deer population is artificially high to begin with? Also, like Rusty said, eventually the predator/prey population will come into balance. Plus, they do allow you to hunt wolves. I suspect that most of the ones "complaining" out west are ranch owners who feel their livestock is threatened. I know a few guys who have been hunting out West for the last 25 years, who always bag a trophy size deer or elk. Have not yet heard one complain about lack of animals. Its usually about not pulling the trigger too soon, because of the sheer numbers they have the option of shooting, and waiting for the big one.

As far as Turkeys go out East, there are more now than ever, even with the increasing coyote population. If they don't call as often, its an interesting adaption, true. I just can't walk in the woods, ride my bike, or fish without seeing a flock of at least 30-40 at a time.

 

[sunsignarcher]

I know a few guys who have been hunting out West for the last 25 years, who always bag a trophy size deer or elk. Have not yet heard one complain about lack of animals. Its usually about not pulling the trigger too soon, because of the sheer numbers they have the option of shooting, and waiting for the big one.

:rofl::funnypost:rofl:

 

[sunsignarcher]

I guess equilibrium is a relative term.

Nature and everything in it is cyclical. These wolves were introduced into a man made candy land and believing we could keep a lid on their expansion under those conditions was ignorance at it's best.

The damage they do outside the park is very real and tragic. These animal don't operate with tag allocations, quotas or limits, they kill indiscriminately and they're very good at it.

 

[Trout Nazi]

I guess equilibrium is a relative term.

Nature and everything in it is cyclical. These wolves were introduced into a man made candy land and believing we could keep a lid on their expansion under those conditions was ignorance at it's best.

The damage they do outside the park is very real and tragic. These animal don't operate with tag allocations, quotas or limits, they kill indiscriminately and they're very good at it.

Well then, maybe we should kill'em all like we did in the first place. Can't have deer go extinct now, can we? (like that can actually happen).

 

[Rusty Spinner]

I'm with Trout Nazi on this. I think it's great we have at least one intact ecosystem in the lower 48 with large predators and prey like Yellowstone has. There are ways to compensate the ranchers, so they can quit their b*tching and learn to live with the wolves which belong here over the livestock that does not. The fact remains that there are more deer and elk on this continent than ever before because man has become adept at increasing their numbers. Now, if we see any decline for any reason, we see it as a negative, failing to recognize the artificially high populations of many animals because we somehow interfered to begin with.

I see newer NJ deer hunters freaking out because they no longer see 100 day/day/hunt like they did less than a decade ago. Holy crap, that's not good for the limited habitat we have to see all those deer! There's a good reason NJ forests are a mess, and it is mostly due to over browsing by native, but invasive whitetail deer.

And it's tied to the same reason Yellowstone trout streams are now healing some due to the reintroduction of a pinnacle predator, because ungulate populations are coming into control and less animals are trampling banks and eating vegetation that protects those banks.

 

[moosekid]

I 'worked' on a documentary that covered a similar topic. It was on the Moose population in Jackson Hole and the re-introduction of their natural predator -- the wolf. It was pretty fun. I was like 13 and I'm featured in the documentary throwing snow balls drenched in wolf piss at some moose. I'm told it still gets played on animal planet from time to time -- it's called Moose Mania. Co-written by my dad -- Grant Moos...

 

[lightenup]

I guess equilibrium is a relative term.

Nature and everything in it is cyclical. These wolves were introduced into a man made candy land and believing we could keep a lid on their expansion under those conditions was ignorance at it's best.

The damage they do outside the park is very real and tragic. These animal don't operate with tag allocations, quotas or limits, they kill indiscriminately and they're very good at it.

They're just doing what Wolves do.......

 

[tompg]

calling Yellowstone man made is perhaps the most ironic statement I've heard in a very long time.

 

[sunsignarcher]

Well then, maybe we should kill'em all like we did in the first place. Can't have deer go extinct now, can we? (like that can actually happen).

What does that mean? Are you saying we could simply stop hunting them and just allow the wolves to do the job??

Remove or even diminish the economics behind hunting and fishing and watch how many acres, ponds and streams disappear.

 

[Trout Nazi]

What does that mean? Are you saying we could simply stop hunting them and just allow the wolves to do the job??

Remove or even diminish the economics behind hunting and fishing and watch how many acres, ponds and streams disappear.

No, despite all of this panic and hyperoble, its unlikely that the wolf population will increase to such an extent that this could actually happen. Also, if the wolf population did increase to an asrtonomical number (doubtful since they are territorial, can only have a certain number of wolf packs in an area), we would start hunting them, which I believe we already do.

Bottom line, I doubt hunting would ever be removed from the equation, unless PETA got a president into the White House.

 

[tomfly]

Wolves have been blamed for the decline in game numbers, almost as bad as Coyotes. That argument is as old as dirt. If you look at this study the decline is due to predatory trout.( I am skeptical on validity on this one as well) At least this group is not implicating the wolves as the problem. I might not agree with this study. Blaming wolves is the easy approach to a problem and not necessarily the cause.

Trout invasion behind Yellowstone elk decline, study reports

 

[emoussa]

The damage they do outside the park is very real and tragic. These animal don't operate with tag allocations, quotas or limits, they kill indiscriminately and they're very good at it.

I don't know if a wolf killing some livestock or a deer qualifies as a tragedy in today's world.

The way I see it, it's hunters and ranchers who are doing the complaining. They have skin in the game and the money to make noise about it. I do understand a ranchers perspective because it's a threat to their livelihood but to me, it's part (or at least should be) of the inherent risk. As far as hunters concerns.. Screw them. Why should it be so easy? Talk about sense of entitlement.

And has anyone actually been killed by a wolf in the lower 48? Or anywhere, for that matter?

 

[sunsignarcher]

As far as hunters concerns.. Screw them. Why should it be so easy? Talk about sense of entitlement.

Entitlement? Screw hunters??

There is a Yellowstone because of a Hunter. It was a hunter and conservationist together that had the fore site to set these areas aside and protect them. The two are one and the same.

Like it or not hunters, fisherman and conservationist are all on the same team.

I think it's great we have at least one intact ecosystem in the lower 48 with large predators and prey like Yellowstone has.

Rusty, why is it that man can't complete an ecosystem? What are we, some alien observer not of or part of Nature?

I think that attitude is at the core of the AR movement. :crap:

 

[WBDluver]

I don't know if a wolf killing some livestock or a deer qualifies as a tragedy in today's world.

The way I see it, it's hunters and ranchers who are doing the complaining. They have skin in the game and the money to make noise about it. I do understand a ranchers perspective because it's a threat to their livelihood but to me, it's part (or at least should be) of the inherent risk. As far as hunters concerns.. Screw them. Why should it be so easy? Talk about sense of entitlement.

And has anyone actually been killed by a wolf in the lower 48? Or anywhere, for that matter?

List of wolf attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Rusty, why is it that man can't complete an ecosystem? What are we, some alien observer not of or part of Nature?

I think that attitude is at the core of the AR movement.

Man does complete an ecosystem. I said nothing about man and Yellowstone except to say I was glad man reintroduced wolves to complete that particular ecosystem. It was wolves that were missing. In time, we'll learn to live with returning animals like wolves, moose, fishers and many others on the upswing as well as the many deer and black bear already here and often growing in population including elk, whitetail, mulies, etc. Man is in the natural order of things, obviously, and that is something the left often conveniently forgets. But we must recognize we alone impact various ecosystems more than any other creature, plant or animal. And with that comes some responsibility for the life of those ecosystems. We're never going back to what this continent first looked like before early Indians settled nor when the first Europeans settled nor should we. But in some relatively large natural area of preserved lands like a national park, bringing back some predator-prey balance is a good thing ecologically.

In other words, I feel strongly that we can live with some wolves, even though they will eat some or even many of the game animals I like to hunt and livestock farmers raise for beef. And we can control the wolves if and when needed provided politics don't overly interfere. So I like the intact ecosystem and our collective ability to have some controls over populations of predators and prey while still having enough of both for public viewing and enjoyment.

 

[sunsignarcher]

I hope your right about being able to control them Rusty, but I'm not optimistic.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

I hope your right about being able to control them Rusty, but I'm not optimistic.

With far fewer men and much less accurate, long shooting rifles, we extirpated them 100% decades ago now. When you think about that, it's not so scary if we want to reduce some of the packs here and there. Wolf hunts remain popular with hunters, so I see no issues as they open bag limits as wolf populations continue to grow where reintroduced.

 

[emoussa]

List of wolf attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Two confirmed fatal attacks in the entire country, ever.

10 Incredibly Bizarre Death Statistics (death statistics) - ODDEE