The DRF, NYC Watershed Corp., Nutrients...

[Future Fanatic]

I'm sorry if this post seems geared to one guy (Joe T.), but I'm not sure if we have any other DRF guys or scientists on the board... The NYC Watershed guys are trying their best to cut down on the amount of "pollution" that enters the upper Delawares (above the reservoirs), particularly it seems, the West Branch. Although there is no question that keeping toxic chemicals out of the system is a positive, is there any concern about cutting the amount of organic wastes?
The quality of drinking water in Cannonsville is the driving force of the work being done (there is a lot of work being done to design stock yards on dairy farms with both physical and natural barriers to curtail, the flow of water through both farm fields and manure), but is there any discussion as to how it might affect the fishery?
I know, I know, you may be saying "DUH, clean water has got to be a good thing for the aquatic life in the rivers", But aren't nutrients in the water what drives the whole cycle of life there? I remember reading something in the book you suggested Joe, "The Neversink" about some rather famous fly fisher saying that the huge hatches in the Roscoe area at one time were due in part to the fact that a sewer pipe emptied directly into the water, providing nutrients to the river. Now I'm not suggesting that this would be the way to go... but if NYC does significantly cut nutrients into the reservoirs, will this altered level of nutrients, affect the diversity of insects (if not just the numbers)? I had read once, that as Lake Ontario was being cleaned up ( I think in the 70' and 80's) the levels of phyto plankton- alewives were being affected in negative ways. It was discussed in terms of lowering the carrying capacity of the lake for sport fish.
This summer I noticed a large area of the West Branch in Deposit was carpeted with alga. Aside from making the river a nightmare to fish, it started me thinking that these nutrients that were obviously in the water might have a positive affect on the insects.
ANYWAY, with about 5 months until we start seeing those early stones... I guess we have enough time to solve this whole issue Maybe we need to invite BobS from the "other" board to put his $.02 in?
John

 

[Unregistered]

Keeping the EPA happy

I believe that the work being done on most of the tribs leading into most of the Catskill reseviors has mostly to do with keeping the EPA happy. Under EPA regulations, NYC is supposed to build a billion dollar filtration plant, to ensure that the drinking water coming into NYC is clean. Rather than spending billions this plant, the EPA has accepted a plan within which DEP is aquiring land surrounding the tribs, and improving it. Green County dept of Soil and Water I believe has been doing major work on trib such as the West Kill, Batavia Kill, as well as tribs on the Beaver Kill, etc... This seems to have had a positive effect of the turbidity problem on the Esopus, although I'm sure the drawing down of Schoharie was also quite helpfull in this regard. Cannonsville as I understand it is not primarily drinking water. This water is primarily used for it's releases, helping to keep the salt line in check down near Philly. Nontheless, it falls under the same catagory, and as such and improvements that can be done to keep the EPA happy will be done. I cannot speak to the nutrient issue directly, but it would seem that if the water coming into Cannonsville where cleaner, than the water coming out would be cleaner and there would be less nutrients, perhaps leading to less insect diversity.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Does anyone know where Joe T was fishing last? We might want to check for him someplace downstream. I thought he'd have at least $.04 to give on this one.

John

 

[Andre]

If Joe is fishing he's doing it by hand. His rod and reel have been at my house for 2 months. Not for nothing but have cheap 5wt GLX and Ross reel for sale.(G) That would be a grin Joe.

 

[Future Fanatic]

I would guess that Joe has 10 rod/reel combos. Any other guesses? Hey if you think that Joe really forgot about it and you want to make a few bucks.... I'm in. Shhh... it will be our little secret.

 

[JOE.T]

Andre

I was not able to get by this this weekend.Dont sell the rod and reel just yet!

Talk to you soon.

Fanatic,

Been real busy.When I have some time tonight Ill put in my 10 cents worth.

Oh Only 3 combos.

Joe.t

 

[Future Fanatic]

Thanks Andre,
Now we know how to get Joe out of hiding (or at least pull him away from work for a moment).... threaten to sell his fishing rod!
I'll be looking forward to your response, Joe.

John

 

[JOE.T]

John

The question about nutrients affecting insect life is a great one,however its complex and not so easy to quantify.

First will there be more of a positive impact cleaning the water of toxins or more of a negative impact having water with less nutrients?

I would have to say that I would rather have the cleaner water as opposed water with toxins in this situation.

My answer is an educated one,that is not backed by any research or tests,just from being an amateur Entomologist and Ecologist,and I stress amateur..

First-I think that the water coming into the Cannonsvile or any resevoir for that matter is not as important as one may think.Just as long as its not polluted or poisoned.It would be great to have nutrient rich water coming in, but again I think the resevevoir can produce enough nutrients on its own to enhance aquatic insect life in the river below,and create a good ecosytem that can and will provide good hatches of Mayflies and Caddis.


You have to look at the resevoir itsef.The resevoir is a totally different ecosysten from the river entering it and leaving it.For the most part a resevoir or lake can manufacture nutrients on its own.



The resevoir itself produces the "ingredients" needed for algal growth which is where the nutrients come from.This is a very simple example of it but it gets the point across. Things such as fish ,leaves and vegatation decomposing, fish waste,etc combined with cold water,sunlight and oxygen is whats needed as a base to start algal production.As long as theres algal production than theres higher ph levels and nutrients.

I will use the Neversink resevoir as an example of having clean water with basically no nutrients entering the resevoir from the west and east branch of the neversink.

The east and west branch of the neversink is a very historic part of the catskills,and beautiful as well,however the water coming into the resevoir is clean but lacks any nutrients to speak of and is slighlty acidic..The hatches on the east and west are poor at best when comparing them to the other major rivers in the catskills.

In the book the Neversink Lenny Wright lived on the upper neversink,and If you remember he added limestone to the feeder creeks to bring up the ph leveles so that that he could create algal production.He of course did this to try and provide nutrients for the aqautic insects.

However the water that is released from the Nevesink is very nutrient enriched.The neversink below the resevoir for about 12 miles or so is very rich in aquatic insect life.That part of the neversink has very prolific hatches of Hendrickson,blue quills,quill gordons,sulphurs and various species that belong to the family baetidae(olives) as well as other mayflies that are descent hatches.Its a "buggy river" as Nj fred put it especially in the sections I fish.

Ok back to the west branch.What most anglers dont know is that the cannonsville resevoir was drained down to 3% capacity almost 2 years ago.Think about that? I would say that the ecosysten in the resevoir was destroyed???.

Since than two springs have passed us.An I will say not just from experience that the hatches have declined since.

I know someone who conducts independant studies on the west branch and he has documented that most populations of mayflies have declined somewhat and only a few have declined to a more significant degree..



Even with a catastrophe like this the majority of the Aqautic insects have declined but have survived and this tells me that the west branch is cabable of sustaining itself,and provide some nutrients on its owns to sustain most aquatic insects.

Johm having expalined all of this I think you can see why I think the lesser amount of nutrients will not impact the aquatic insect life in the west branch in a negative way...

As a board member of the DRF I am putting together an "ecosystem comitee"this coming spring.If anyone has any interest in volunteering or want to know more about it let me know.

Also I am looking to get students who study ecology and or entomology to volunteer as well.Maybe even a proffessor or two.l.If anyone has any ideas how I might go about doing this please let me know?

j.tutino@att.net

Oh. I promise, if you volunteer fishing will be part of the day!

 

[JOE.T]

John,

This is a great and informative web site.

http://www.rivernetwork.org/lw/index.cfm?doc_id=387

 

[Future Fanatic]

Joe (&unregistered)
Thanks so much for your insights.

One thing that I had forgotten to add to the original post was a question: Does the DRF have any relationship with or do they have a position on, the NYC Watershed Corporation? I wonder if some of the goals of both organizations(even though the NYCWC represents the interests of NYC drinking water) may be the same. If some of the goals of the two intersect, maybe some money might be available to get some mutually beneficial projects started? It seems as if they do like to throw $ around.

You mentioned that a DRF board member is starting an ecology committee. Just a thought, but the State University College at Oneonta has a "Biological Field Station on Otsego Lake in Cooperstown. The Director is a Dr. Harman I think. The field station has been at the forefront of conservation efforts for Otsego Lake. They have "support" from many groups for their research there. SO WHAT, you ask. My thought is, that there are possibly students (undergrad and Grad)and/or staff that may be interested in something else to work on or research. Deposit/ Hancock is just about an hour or so from Oneonta, so the distance, although a factor, may not be prohibitive. Here is a site for the field station: http://www.oneonta.edu/academics/biofld/ If you click "STAFF" it will show you who your DRF member could contact.

Thanks again, Joe.

John

 

[HydeLowRider]

Future Fanatic,

Great idea to tap into nearby university.

 

[JOE.T]

John

Yes the drf does have a relationship to some degree.Ill bring up your idea at the next meeting.Thanks.

I am the board member who is starting up this comiitee let me know if you want get involved in any capacity.Also thanks for the contacts as well.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Hey Joe,

What exactly do you see your ecosystem committee doing? Will it be to catalog invertebates, test water qualities, research or ... all of the above?

John

 

[JOE.T]

All of the above.