Stream assesment

[frogge]

Hey,

any advice on best way to asses a stream for insect activity. I've read about using an aquarium dip net to see what may be floating in the water column Also seen advice about turning over rocks etc. Have seen some dudes on TV pumping trouts stomachs. While I'm sure I can pump a stomach without killing the fish, seems like cruel and unusual stress for the poor thing. Anyone here routinely check the water for bugs. If so what's the most effective way to do it. Also am interested in the best way to use a thermometer to asses water temps. Do you assume temp is the same despite change in depth etc. Thanks for any help,frogge.:dizzy:

 

[JeffK]

Sampling for bugs; the first step is to turn over a few rocks and see what's there. My advice to newbies is to first look at the general impression whether the bugs are light or dark and whether they are big or small. That is a good place to start fly selection.

Most formal sampling is a kick sample and requires two people. One person holds a net about 1m wide spread between two broom sticks and with lead weights at the bottom to keep the net right on the streambed. One guy holds the net while the other kicks the rocks and rubs them to knock the bugs off and they float downstream into the net. Dump the net into a white pan for good contrast and you will be amazed at what you find.

For water temps, streams are normally well mixed and are fairly even temperature. In the summer the stream heats up from the bottom (the sun heats the rocks, the rocks heat the water) and a thin warm layer can form on the bottom. Sometimes a spring or tributary will create a warm or cool thermal refuge depending on the season. However, in most cases the water in a flowing stream is well mixed and is pretty uniform in temperature.

 

[Corndog]

Frogge,

I’ve been bashed here before for my comments/opinions concerning fly fishing with such things as “What's with the 'holier than thou' b.s.?,” and “Your remarks are so illustrative of the snob mentality”, and “just more pure bunk”, and “So for those of us who are not as 'Pure' as you”. I think you get my drift.

Ironically, the old-timer here with 6 billion posts who said those things about me goes by the name of Mayfly. Go figure??? LOL

So, I must say that my comments/opinions here in no way reflect the views of North Eastern Fly Fishing or it’s members.

Anyway, there are a lot of good books with the info I’m giving you, so don’t think I’m giving you any secrets here. If you want secrets you have to PM me.

First off…I love to dry fly fish, however I do use nymphs as well. But when I approach a stream; I’m hoping to see rising trout. This being said, I don't approach a stream and start fishing. First I observe what going on around me.

Are there rising trout? If there are, I look for an air bubble in the rise form. When a trout takes a fly on the surface, it takes in air. Then when it goes back down it expels the air, forming a bubble which rises to the surface. If there’s no bubble, then most likely it’s taking emergers just under the surface.

Are there bugs floating on the water? Yes, I take out my trusty little minnow net and catch a few bugs that are floating on the surface. If I don’t see any, I hold the net in the current just under the surface for a minute or two and then see what I’ve netted. I love to “match the hatch” when I fish. By the way, I also carry tweezers, a magnifying glass and a small jar of 90% isopropyl alcohol. These can all be purchased at hobby town. This way if I catch a bug I cannot identify, I take it home and tie some up for my next trip. 90% alcohol is the best for preserving bugs. I have some bugs in jars that are 8 years old. Don’t ask me why, I just do. Also, look for bugs caught in the nearby spider webs, crawling up on the rocks and logs, on grasses and weeds, etc. and look for birds overhead catching bugs. Now that I have some bugs, I have an idea what I’m going to start fishing with. Either nymphs, emergers, duns, or spinners. This will change throughout the day, so I have to keep my eyes open to what’s going on around me.

As for sucking bugs out of a trout’s stomach…I don’t. I’ve watched guys doing it and to me it looks like their having sex with the fish. He cups his trout firmly in his hand, presses it against his crotch, and sticks his long tube down…sucks…lets not go there. Poor fish, worked all day catching bugs only to be hooked and netted, then have its lunch sucked out of it. I just don’t see the need, plus I don’t have one of those sucky sucky things.

For water temps I use the standard water thermometer you can buy at most fly shops. Temps do vary from spot to spot, but I find that it only differs by about 4 degrees whether in the current or a slow moving pool. But, that’s on the streams I fish, and I’ve never taken a reading more than 4’ down. As for fish feeding activity and water temps, I don’t buy into that except for when the water reaches 70 degrees. I fish all year and have had good days when the water was 68 and also when it was 38 degrees.

For what it’s worth I hope this helps.
Enjoy the experience, not just the fish.
Cdog

 

[JeffK]

I've found water temperature means a lot - but just the temperature alone doesn't tell the whole story. For example, fishing can be good or bad at 38F. If the waters have been 33F for weeks and a warm rain brings it up to 38F the fish will go nuts. If the water has been in the low 40's and drops to 38F the fish turn off. Steady temperatures generally help a lot, but a long, constant period in the 30's makes the fishy a little lethargic. I love to see a long stable temperature pattern in May, but generally don't care to see it in February - unless it is a 40F warm spell.

Where tribs and springs come in it is sometimes valuable to measure the temperature break. I have found trout hold pretty well on the 65F temperature break if it is pretty well pronounced.

Measuring and tracking temperature helps figure out the fish - the more you know the better. However, some days nothing makes sense and you just have to try different things.

I have never been one to sample a live trout's stomach. That has always seemed like pushing it too much to me.

 

[Corndog]

Jeffk,
Thanks for the info on water temps. I've found, as you have, that a drop in temp in the winter can shut down the fish, but not shut down the fishermen (mainly me). Cause I'm still out there anyway. I been fishing in February many times when the sun is out and warming things up and the fish go on a feeding frenzy and I'm the only one out there. Love it!

Hey, I read an earlier post by you somewhere that you and a group are meeting and fishing the Willow. My son is in college near there and we would like to join you if that's okay.

Cdog

 

[frogge]

Cdog and Jeff K,
Thanks for the information. I do read the books, but find the experience of people actually fishing much more helpfull. I used to do kick samples when I was a kid. We used the net to catch minnows that were then sacraficed as bait. I tied crude flys then and never would have believed that they would catch anything. The bubble thing seems interesting. If either of you wish try to inform me as to how you would asses this situation. Battenkill, water clear, sunny warm day. Trout actively taking something all over the place. Every kind of rise form from jumping clear out of the water to seeing dorsal fins and tails. I only see a rare midge on the water. Everything tells me they are taking emergers. I get no hits on a all kinds of different nymphs at various depths. I don't have any good really small midge drys. Smallest nymph is an 18. Get one hit on a beetle, one on a #16 caddis, and the best hit of the afternoon on my strike indicator. I've been avoiding the super small flys but expect it is time for really small drys and emergers. Any thoughts? Thanks,Frogge.

 

[Corndog]

LOL on the indicator hit. Been there myself. One of these days I'm gonna put a hook on one just for the fun if it.

I've fished the Battenkill and personally find it a tough river to fish. Probably cause I only get up there once or twice a year. Like you said, not a bug in site and their rising all around you. I would wager that every fly fisherman has experienced that. It's really frustrating when you try everything you've got in your fly box and no takers.

If a trout shows you it's dorsel fin (kinda looks like it's porpoising) and you don't see any bugs on the surface, then it's probably taking bugs just below the surface or in the surface film. Watch one of the trout doing this. Is it holding in the same place after each rise? If so, then it's feeding on what's floating down the river to it. You'll have to drift your fly right in front of it's nose or it won't see it. If it's just under the surface then it's area of vision is very small. The formula is; Depth x 2.26 = Surface Sight Diameter. So, if it's holding 2" under the surface, it sees a little over a 4" diameter cone over it's eyes. Your fly could be 3" to either side of the trout and it won't see it at all.

Tiny Midges, Tricos, and Blue Winged Olives hatch regularly on our northeast streams this time of year. They might be on the surface or rising to the surface and you won't even see them. I tie them on #24 hooks (wish I could go smaller but my fingers just won't cooperate) and sometimes they are to big, but usually do the trick. However, Tricos and Midges are just about done for the year. BWOs are good for about another month. This sounds crazy, but when I have rising fish in front of me and I can't figure them out, I go to my truck, get my binoculars, and sit and watch a particular trout until I can figure out what it's eating. If that doesn't work, I get my shotgun and blast it then cut it's stomach open. Just kidding, but I have entertained the thought.

You can also hold your fly under the water to sink it or apply some sink to it and put an indicator up about 12-18" from it and see if they'll take it just under the surface. You can also fish this technique with small Gold Ribbed Hairs Ear and Pheasant Tail nymphs, or zebra midge, black, and olive emergers. Don't add any weight so it stays near the surface.

Have fun experimenting,
Cdog

 

[frogge]

Hey Cdog,

Thanks again for the help. I recently read that midges spend very little time on the water and thus the emergers are much more available than the adults. I think this and the tunnel vision you mentioned help explain what I witnessed. I guess I'm going to have to bite the bullet and add to my considerable hook collection. I can see the outlay rising as I write. Need some 24's and some 7x tippet and those midge jaws for the vice I was considering. One thing you said that is counter to my reading is that midges are about done for the year. I've read that they may continue to hatch thoughout the winter. Is this not the case in this area? Thanks,Frogge.

 

[Corndog]

You are correct. Midges do sporadically hatch until winter, but you will see less and less of them as it gets colder. I'm referring to the summer hatches where their so thick their continuously going up your nose. Mosquitoes are the most common midges. But, many flying insects fall into the midge grouping. This will give you some idea as to how long they will be around. Look for the dead adults floating on the water. I found some this year that were dark olive with a white butt, grey wings, and no tail. Not sure what they are called, maybe some else here knows. The trout were gobbling them up, so I tied some and went back the next morning and had a blast. Yes you will need some 7x, #24 hooks, and maybe smaller jaws for your vice, but you shouln't need much else. I tie all my trico and midge hackle with dun Whiting 100s (the darkest grey I can find) size 20-22. Others here might use black, white, or cream, but the ones I catch on my local streams all have grey wings. So, you need to get out there and catch a few before you buy any material.

Love adding new bugs to my arsenal,
Cdog

 

[JeffK]

I tie midges without midge jaws - they are nice but you don't necessarily need them. I also almost never go below 6X. I carry a spool of 7X just in case, but only end up needing it once or twice a year.

Can't do without the hooks!

Sometimes just stare at the water going by right where you are standing. Frequently yo will see all sorts of stuff floating by.