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Question about stream polluters and lawsuits

This stuff is happening in China right now, only the manufacturer's don't have to hide it, because the government looks the other way....or owns part of or all of the manufacturing companies. Some days the smog is so thick in some regions you can't see across the street and breathing is difficult. The government tries to counter this by putting up huge LCD displays in town squares and busy intersections with a bright sun and blue sky, or a sunrise on them.........

China is putting an average of one new coal burning power plant in service each week with zero "scrubbers" or other air quality controls that are mandated here in the US these days. And their going to regret that very soon. Many regret it already.

The paper making machines that were in two defunct paper mills on the lower Musky had to be sold overseas because although they were grandfathered in while still in use here, they could no longer be used in the US in a new location due to EPA rules. So the company that bought up the assets of the mills sold them to China and India where there simply are no environmental controls whatsoever. When the mill was running and making red colored paper, the lower Musky ran red. When green paper was being made, the river ran green and so on.

Some government control over pollution is good, but there has to be a fine balance. No control is not good for anyone.
 
Some government control over pollution is good, but there has to be a fine balance. No control is not good for anyone.

I think I agree with this, but it depends what you mean by balance. "Some government control" is what creates a condition where corporations will relocate to states or nations with lax environmental regulations. In my mind, the problem in the case of the Musky's paper mills is not excessive regulation. Lax regulation would have kept jobs, and the river would still be running red and green. The problem is the condition that forces this shitty tradeoff upon us. And that condition is not excessive regulation - it's uneven regulation.

If anything, the story you're telling, which i appreciate and didn't know about, seems to show the need for strict, consistent environmental regulation at both federal and international levels. Forcing China to maintain the same environmental standards would keep jobs in the US while allowing our rivers to run clean.

But it's hard to see how and when that will ever happen when the crucial player in international accords (the US) acts to protect its economy first, torpedoing international agreements. Is the US right to worry about free-riders? Maybe, maybe not. We built our own industrial economy under a condition of no regulation whatsoever. So disputing the right of developing countries to enjoy looser standards seems hypocritical. But is China really, at this point, a "developing country"?

Anyway, the point is, the solution to such cases is not in my mind a fine balance between the strategic needs of a given paper company and the environment. It's strict, evenly applied environmental regulation across the board. Corporations will operate within whatever regulatory framework they're given, and will continue to a) make money and b) provide goods and services. They only oppose regulation when it creates winners or losers, either because the regulations are uneven (as in this case) or because they themselves are less able than competitors to meet the regulations. The solution is simple. It's the pragmatic politics of achieving it that are complicated.

Again, I don't think I necessarily just disagreed with what you were saying. Of course we have to balance the needs of our economy with the needs of the environment. But in an ideal world that balance would be struck internationally and strongly enforced, leaving corporations an even playing field on which to compete, which is something both liberals and conservatives can agree would be a good thing.
 
I think we're on the same page. It was clearly good that the Musky paper mill machines can no longer run in the US and clearly bad that China and India simply don't care (yet) about their respective environments. Not much we can do except continue to educate them on the error of their ways based on lessons our nation learned long ago.

Where I come down on too much federal regulations is on the coal industry. Modern coal burning power plants are nowhere near the polluters they once were. Remember when acid rain was all the talk of the environmental community back in the 70s? You seldom hear about it as a huge issue that it once was due to strengthened laws. But, IMO, they have now gone too far and coal plants in the US are closing even though we have an abundance of coal and we still need it to fuel our economy. We can't wish solar and wind on the economy as recent attempts have proven; at least not on a huge scale needed to provide the power we consume. We need it all and the first person or company that invents the better power generating widget will become a multi-billionaire overnight. I just remain concerned that some are pushing our economy too far left where we continue to lose influence world wide and become more like Greece than the nation that spread democracy around the globe and won two world wars against tyranny.
 
coal is better than it was...but still is a miserable source of energy. emissions are better but not great and still has mining and waste issues.
 
coal is better than it was...but still is a miserable source of energy. emissions are better but not great and still has mining and waste issues.

All true, but we still need it. I think that's the biggest issue I have with my left-leaning friends and with this current Administration. They act as though we no longer need coal. We're still not ready to rely solely on other energy sources.
 
I love discussions.

It's hard to understand why India and China won't hop on board with at least some environmental law and enforcement.

Both country's major religions are very nature orientated along with their people. I see multiple huge groups of Asian immigrants from nyc in Harriman state park on nice weekends. And they're not just picnicking, sometimes there are big groups deep off the beaten path, with a good % of very elderly people keeping up with the group up a steep trail.

One time I was startled when I heard rhythmic chanting while I was on a long hike deep in HSP. I cautiously made my way closer, frightened I was going to see a cult in black robes.

It was a very large group of Asian day hikers just enjoying lunch while singing, on a beautiful day FAR into the woods.

Very cool to see but I still hightailed it out of there, to give them their peace and quite.
 
Every time I get into this thread I read some very interesting opinions, and then without fail, CMB makes some asinine post that leaves me scratching my head..a true walking talking anti drug campaign
 
I love discussions.

It's hard to understand why India and China won't hop on board with at least some environmental law .

You need to crawl before you can walk, grasshopper. Try to understand the culture 10miles outside of the rock pile you live in, before you try to understand a culture 14000 miles away.
 
You need to crawl before you can walk, grasshopper. Try to understand the culture 10miles outside of the rock pile you live in, before you try to understand a culture 14000 miles away.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dis...ance+from+warwick+ny+to+beijing+china&spell=1

https://www.google.com/search?q=dis...q=distance+from+warwick+ny+to+new+delhi+india

Your estimate of the distance from my beautiful town to both aforementioned places was grossly off.

Learn some geography then get back to me.

As to the "living in a rock pile" statement.

http://p.rdcpix.com/v01/l05b03443-m0m.jpg

The house I rent is on the bottom of the picture but that's the property I live on. I guess it's pretty rocky...

http://tours.tourfactory.com/tours/media/scene/big2/00/11/72/54/11725483.jpg

And that's a partial picture of the view

Bet it makes your shit hole of a situation look a whole lot shittier.

I say that cause your shitty situation is obviously shitty if you have to berate and put down a 25 year old to make yourself feel better/

Either that or you're legitimately a part of the reason people hate other people.

I bet you drive 10mph under the speed limit as well
 
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Every time I get into this thread I read some very interesting opinions, and then without fail, CMB makes some asinine post that leaves me scratching my head..a true walking talking anti drug campaign


Explain in full detail as to how my post was asinine.

Also, explain in detail how I'm the "walking talking anti-drug campaign" as compared to your daughter/wife/mother

Btw Thursthouse, you have 275 posts to my almost 1k.. I've provided more information here than you ever will.

How's that arm pit of a place called midland park treating ya?

Here's some pictures of my town to compare it to your strip malls and soccer moms... you arrogant, ignorant, inconsiderate, prick.

Stay in that s#%^ hole of yours, we don't like people like you bringing your city attitudes' up here. But please come visit me any time!! And Please do make your visitation well announced! I'll make cookies and lemonade and we can discuss on my amazing deck that over looks the ravine that has the best WTS in town!

http://www.warwickbusiness.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Welcome2.png

http://www.mountevekeepsakes.com/images/MountEve2JPG.jpg

http://www.menupix.com/town_img/WarwickNYHP.jpg

http://dancjr2.com/slides/field4.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2278/1678272782_199ee553c7.jpg

Hahahah. I live in paradise, and you live in a shit hole!


Oh by the way if you didnt notice it was me who started this thread. Even though I know you wish you could have came up with the discussion starter, you didn't.

Edit:

Oh here's pictures of your s#*^ hole town as a comparison

This is like the 12th picture when I google image midland park

https://adc3ef35f321fe6e725a-fb8aac...m/propertyimages/218/midland-park-mall-03.jpg

ugh what's this supposed to be a nice pond? I didnt even mean to find a picture of fresh water. That looks disgustingly eutrophic

http://www.njmls.com/communities/images/large/C01_1027.JPG

Big old strip mall

http://www.azariangroup.com/IMG_1256 001.JPG

and the rest of the pictures I can find are mansions and Mc mansions. Sounds like an exciting place to live... No wonder you're such a spiteful person the traffic alone would drive me insane.
 
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https://www.google.com/search?q=dis...ance+from+warwick+ny+to+beijing+china&spell=1

https://www.google.com/search?q=dis...q=distance+from+warwick+ny+to+new+delhi+india

Your estimate of the distance from my beautiful town to both aforementioned places was grossly off.

Learn some geography then get back to me.

As to the "living in a rock pile"

http://p.rdcpix.com/v01/l05b03443-m0m.jpg

The house I rent is on the bottom of the picture but that's the property I live on. I guess it's pretty rocky...

http://tours.tourfactory.com/tours/media/scene/big2/00/11/72/54/11725483.jpg

And that's a partial picture of the view

Bet it makes your shit hole of a situation look a whole lot shittier

I guess the meaning of the word hyperbole is lost on you, use the Internet to look that one up. Your the poster boy for "a little science is a dangerous thing".

And like they say in Caddy Shack, the pond out back is just right for you.
 
I guess the meaning of the word hyperbole is lost on you, use the Internet to look that one up. Your the poster boy for "a little science is a dangerous thing".

And like they say in Caddy Shack, the pond out back is just right for you.

Yup you lost me and I've seen Caddy shack a few times. And fuck you I'm not doing something you say, go eat a bag...

Alright fine.. I looked up hyperbole and heres the definition

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/a...g-middle-finger-to-boss-dof-focus-on-hand.jpg

Take your attitude though and shove it. If you have nothing nice to say don't say anything.. and start driving while extremely intoxicated while not wearing a seat belt. I hear that's all the rage in that shit "pile" you live in, and you just gotta stay hip and with the times. Dont want kids to know you wear depends and you're only 30..
 
Yup you lost me and I've seen Caddy shack a few times. And fuck you I'm not doing something you say go eat a bag...

Alright fine.. I looked up hyperbole and heres the definition

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/a...g-middle-finger-to-boss-dof-focus-on-hand.jpg

Take your attitude though and shove it. If you have nothing nice to say don't say anything.. and start driving while extremely intoxicated while not wearing a seat belt. I hear that's all the rage in that shit "pile" you live in, and you just gotta stay hip and with the times. Dont want kids to know you wear depends and you're only 30..

Folks, we have a contender for funniest thread. I take my hipness very seriously, especially in my little shit pile that I actually OWN. If you've seen Caddy Shack a couple of times and don't know the reference, then your attention span is the same as your IQ. Oh yea, and I hope you slip and fall in a puddle of AIDS.
 
I have to admit, this has gotten very embarrassing. We don't need to be so crass and belligerent. Can we just go back to having open and honest discussions on geology and elementary-school level questions about the world we live in?
 
I have to admit, this has gotten very embarrassing. We don't need to be so crass and belligerent. Can we just go back to having open and honest discussions on geology and elementary-school level questions about the world we live in?

First off, the question was based in philosophy. That obviously went over your head

Secondly elementary schoolers are knowledgeable about liability insurance of environmental laws that weren't in place at the time of said environmental crime???? Oh my gosh then why aren't we #1 in education yet?!?!

Shit, elementary school must have changed DRASTICALLY in the 10 years since I graduated.

Darn Japanese must teach their children nuclear physics while they're still in diapers or something; If our 8th graders are environmental lawyers already and we're not 1# in education!

Don't be satirical, post what you believe to be facts or serious questions on a fly fishing website. Not dickheadded-ness toward another contributor. One who has contributed 5x more than most, no matter how much you could mock my input.

This shouldn't be a bullying community and any outrageous transgressions will be met with equal or more harsh berating from me.

Actions are meant to save, words are meant to uplift. Yet what you output, at least toward me, is hostility and rage over something I think may be a deeper issue.

Or just plain and simple you're a fucking jerk and in that case you can please stop following my posts... VERY easily
 
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Elementary schoolers are knowledgeable about liability insurance about environmental laws that weren't in place at the time of said environmental crime???? Oh my gosh then why aren't we #1 in education yet?!?!

Shit, elementary school must have changed DRASTICALLY in the 10 years since I graduated.

Darn Japanese must teach their children nuclear physics while they're still in diapers; if our 8th graders are environmental lawyers already and we're not 1# in education!

Don't be satirical, post facts on a fly fishing website.

This shouldn't be a bullying community and any outrageous transgressions will be met with equal or more harsh berating from me.

Our education system ain't so bad ( ahem, with some exceptions) seeing how most of todays breakthroughs in science are coming out of the good ol'USA.

Uh, The Japanese ain't the poster boys for Nuclear physics.

Your harsh bertings are highly entertaining.
 
I have to admit, this has gotten very embarrassing. We don't need to be so crass and belligerent. Can we just go back to having open and honest discussions on geology and elementary-school level questions about the world we live in?

Yes, I thought this was a kinder, more gentle, less entertaining NEFF.

Your harsh bertings are highly entertaining

Only second to Danme, who I miss.....
 
OK CMB, force my hand..

Explain in full detail as to how my post was asinine.

What on earth did the group of Asians in the woods have to do with anything? You cannot equate the actions of a small sample size to an entire population

Also, explain in detail how I'm the "walking talking anti-drug campaign" as compared to your daughter/wife/mother

I believe you said you used to do quite a bit of drugs...well the way you act/think scares me and hence makes me nervous and never want to do drugs. Bringing family into this? Keep it classy.

Btw Thursthouse, you have 275 posts to my almost 1k.. I've provided more information here than you ever will.

Please stop basing your self-worth on how many posts you’ve made on an internet forum. It’s getting old and is pretty sad. Back to my original point, if you Google asinine, then look through your thousand posts of “gobbledy goop” (as you call it) you’ll understand exactly what I’m talking about.

How's that arm pit of a place called midland park treating ya?

Here's some pictures of my town to compare it to your strip malls and soccer moms... you arrogant, ignorant, inconsiderate, prick.


Again..I shake my head when I investigate your research. Those pictures are in fact of Midland Park....Texas. Does your area look nice? Hell yea. Have I visited the area and stumbled through the wineries? Hell yea. But you also have to understand why people live where they live – fairly often it’s due to the proximity of decent jobs. So while you have me beat on scenery, I’m not working in a warehouse. I’m not going to get into a pissing competition about where I live with you, but while you’re Google’ing every other word on this forum, Google Bergen County – it’s really not that terrible of a place to live.

Oh by the way if you didnt notice it was me who started this thread. Even though I know you wish you could have came up with the discussion starter, you didn't.

In fact I did notice who started this thread. And to your credit you can occasionally jump start an interesting conversation, up until you get in your own way. Your threads also tend to have a lot of views and posts. But I’ll let you in on a little secret... half the time it’s not because people think they can learn something from you, but rather they’re awaiting the epic train wreck known as CMB.

Deep down I think you are a decent person, with a genuine concern/interest for our environment. I just wish you would learn to think before you type. On second thought, disregard that last sentence..I enjoy the entertainment.
 
I love discussions.

It's hard to understand why India and China won't hop on board with at least some environmental law and enforcement.

Both country's major religions are very nature orientated along with their people. I see multiple huge groups of Asian immigrants from nyc in Harriman state park on nice weekends. And they're not just picnicking, sometimes there are big groups deep off the beaten path, with a good % of very elderly people keeping up with the group up a steep trail.

One time I was startled when I heard rhythmic chanting while I was on a long hike deep in HSP. I cautiously made my way closer, frightened I was going to see a cult in black robes.

It was a very large group of Asian day hikers just enjoying lunch while singing, on a beautiful day FAR into the woods.

Very cool to see but I still hightailed it out of there, to give them their peace and quite.


They will do that Tai Chi shit anywhere, they don't appreciate nature unless they can eat it. lat-bcpix-wre0007723559-20130114.jpg

Retirees practice tai... -Tai chi - latimes.com


They might appreciate it if they can torture it and make money off of it. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...angora-fur-trade-revealed-shocking-video.html


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/22/w...s-charges-of-cruelty.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Asians love nature it is in the culture. CMM I disagree with you on this point. Strongly
 
They will do that Tai Chi shit anywhere, they don't appreciate nature unless they can eat it. View attachment 10221

Retirees practice tai... -Tai chi - latimes.com


They might appreciate it if they can torture it and make money off of it. Cruel truths of the angora fur trade revealed in shocking video | Mail Online


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/22/w...s-charges-of-cruelty.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Asians love nature it is in the culture. CMM I disagree with you on this point. Strongly

You and Thursthouse better watch out later. He's gonna be all full of piss and vinegar when the short-bus drops him off from the warehouse tonight. I look forward to the impending berating.
 
You and Thursthouse better watch out later. He's gonna be all full of piss and vinegar when the short-bus drops him off from the warehouse tonight. I look forward to the impending berating.

I have nothing against CMM but I disaree with him on this. I did not even have to bring up the obvious whale and dolphin killing and the finning of sharks. Everybody knows those people love and respect nature.

Another reason why I hate that culture. 【Eat the frog】カエルの刺身を食べる(ハードな内容が含まれています) - YouTube

Plus they drink this stuff Three-Penis Wine - Geek Gifts, Gadgets, Cool Stuff. Awesome Waste of Money
 
The kicker is.

I love entertaining you guys.

A few words typed while sipping a nice beer after work go a long way to stir shit up on this site.

Thursthouse, seriously you have the complete ability to either follow or not follow my posts.

When you see my avatar and username pop up just ignore it. Or, are you so drawn to me that you can't?

As to the train wreck references, I very much so have my shit together. Just got another raise and going to college slowly but surely. Balancing work and school.

In the beginning I went for environmental studies but I've realized that there are no opportunities in that field, unlike many in my shoes. So I switched to business and one day will be making serious "adult with a family" money.

I can't wait until that day which is still a few years off. I built myself through that company from the bottom up to where I am now.

I'll LOUDLY let you all know when I graduate and get a new position to make people like

Trout nazi

Thursthouse

Trout Guy

ctobias

And the rest squirm in their seats because you'll all be proven to be ignorant, arrogant aggressors.

Aggressors that I'll meet toe to toe on any bashing
 
OK CMB, force my hand..

Explain in full detail as to how my post was asinine.

What on earth did the group of Asians in the woods have to do with anything? You cannot equate the actions of a small sample size to an entire population

Also, explain in detail how I'm the "walking talking anti-drug campaign" as compared to your daughter/wife/mother

I believe you said you used to do quite a bit of drugs...well the way you act/think scares me and hence makes me nervous and never want to do drugs. Bringing family into this? Keep it classy.

Btw Thursthouse, you have 275 posts to my almost 1k.. I've provided more information here than you ever will.

Please stop basing your self-worth on how many posts you’ve made on an internet forum. It’s getting old and is pretty sad. Back to my original point, if you Google asinine, then look through your thousand posts of “gobbledy goop” (as you call it) you’ll understand exactly what I’m talking about.

How's that arm pit of a place called midland park treating ya?

Here's some pictures of my town to compare it to your strip malls and soccer moms... you arrogant, ignorant, inconsiderate, prick.


Again..I shake my head when I investigate your research. Those pictures are in fact of Midland Park....Texas. Does your area look nice? Hell yea. Have I visited the area and stumbled through the wineries? Hell yea. But you also have to understand why people live where they live – fairly often it’s due to the proximity of decent jobs. So while you have me beat on scenery, I’m not working in a warehouse. I’m not going to get into a pissing competition about where I live with you, but while you’re Google’ing every other word on this forum, Google Bergen County – it’s really not that terrible of a place to live.

Oh by the way if you didnt notice it was me who started this thread. Even though I know you wish you could have came up with the discussion starter, you didn't.

In fact I did notice who started this thread. And to your credit you can occasionally jump start an interesting conversation, up until you get in your own way. Your threads also tend to have a lot of views and posts. But I’ll let you in on a little secret... half the time it’s not because people think they can learn something from you, but rather they’re awaiting the epic train wreck known as CMB.

Deep down I think you are a decent person, with a genuine concern/interest for our environment. I just wish you would learn to think before you type. On second thought, disregard that last sentence..I enjoy the entertainment.

What on earth did the group of Asians in the woods have to do with anything? You cannot equate the actions of a small sample size to an entire population

Have you hiked in HSP EVER? Especially lately? You're obviously ignorant to the fact that most likely 80% of hikers in that busy park are of asian decent coming from the direct NYC area. Your "point" is moot

I believe you said you used to do quite a bit of drugs...well the way you act/think scares me and hence makes me nervous and never want to do drugs. Bringing family into this? Keep it classy.

I did. How do I frighten you? I'm apparently a "naive" youngster. As to me being classy, you made the attack toward me from an honest expression of an observation, you are an outright belligerent aggressor of mine, and you expect nothing in return? Your point is moot.

Please stop basing your self-worth on how many posts you’ve made on an internet forum. It’s getting old and is pretty sad. Back to my original point, if you Google asinine, then look through your thousand posts of “gobbledy goop” (as you call it) you’ll understand exactly what I’m talking about.

This is a fly fishing forum where discussion and information conveyance is appreciated. Not ignorant bashing like you love to do. Once again you can easily unfollow my posts. Creep

Again..I shake my head when I investigate your research. Those pictures are in fact of Midland Park....Texas. Does your area look nice? Hell yea. Have I visited the area and stumbled through the wineries? Hell yea. But you also have to understand why people live where they live – fairly often it’s due to the proximity of decent jobs. So while you have me beat on scenery, I’m not working in a warehouse. I’m not going to get into a pissing competition about where I live with you, but while you’re Google’ing every other word on this forum, Google Bergen County – it’s really not that terrible of a place to live.

Bergen is a shit hole. I'm there all the time. The "nice" parts are mc mansions and organic health food stores, and is full of horse shit people who don't deserve what they have.

In fact I did notice who started this thread. And to your credit you can occasionally jump start an interesting conversation, up until you get in your own way. Your threads also tend to have a lot of views and posts. But I’ll let you in on a little secret... half the time it’s not because people think they can learn something from you, but rather they’re awaiting the epic train wreck known as CMB.

You're jealous I take it? And you follow me very well.

Please explain in full detail why you continue to follow my posts
 
Lighten Up Francis - YouTube

It's all in good fun :)

My train wreck post was less a comment on you than on coming back to see this thread had run off the tracks sometime since I last stopped to look. But I love a good train wreck at least as much as the next guy:cool:
 
I think I agree with this, but it depends what you mean by balance. "Some government control" is what creates a condition where corporations will relocate to states or nations with lax environmental regulations. In my mind, the problem in the case of the Musky's paper mills is not excessive regulation. Lax regulation would have kept jobs, and the river would still be running red and green. The problem is the condition that forces this shitty tradeoff upon us. And that condition is not excessive regulation - it's uneven regulation.

If anything, the story you're telling, which i appreciate and didn't know about, seems to show the need for strict, consistent environmental regulation at both federal and international levels. Forcing China to maintain the same environmental standards would keep jobs in the US while allowing our rivers to run clean.

But it's hard to see how and when that will ever happen when the crucial player in international accords (the US) acts to protect its economy first, torpedoing international agreements. Is the US right to worry about free-riders? Maybe, maybe not. We built our own industrial economy under a condition of no regulation whatsoever. So disputing the right of developing countries to enjoy looser standards seems hypocritical. But is China really, at this point, a "developing country"?

Anyway, the point is, the solution to such cases is not in my mind a fine balance between the strategic needs of a given paper company and the environment. It's strict, evenly applied environmental regulation across the board. Corporations will operate within whatever regulatory framework they're given, and will continue to a) make money and b) provide goods and services. They only oppose regulation when it creates winners or losers, either because the regulations are uneven (as in this case) or because they themselves are less able than competitors to meet the regulations. The solution is simple. It's the pragmatic politics of achieving it that are complicated.

Again, I don't think I necessarily just disagreed with what you were saying. Of course we have to balance the needs of our economy with the needs of the environment. But in an ideal world that balance would be struck internationally and strongly enforced, leaving corporations an even playing field on which to compete, which is something both liberals and conservatives can agree would be a good thing.

 
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